Can't put my finger on it, but it doesn't feel right

[rr1213]

What else should we ask for?

I don’t know. I pray to God, not Mary. So you need to tell me.

 

[rr1213]

After I say the Hail Holy Queen, I ask Mary this, “Oh, Mary, Mother of the the Incarnate Word, your son. If God will, could you petition my request to your son, in my behalf. If my request should not be granted, it is God’s will what is best for me. May the Lord Jesus Christ have mercy on me, and bring me to everlasting life. Amen.”

I use my own words stated above.

I can, reluctantly, see how people could accept the Hail Mary. People will blast me for saying this, but the Hail Holy Queen seems over the top to me.

 

[rr1213]

Mary is a human being like us – the only power she has is the power of prayer. Therefore, whatever we may ask of Mary, we know she will add her prayers to ours for that intention. That’s the bottom line of every prayer to Mary.

An example of this is the Sub Tuum Presidium (Under Your Protection), the earliest extant full written prayer to the Blessed Virgin. It was found on an Egyptian papyrus dated c. A.D. 250.

We turn to you for protection,
O holy Mother of God.
Listen to our prayers
and help us in our needs.
Save us from every danger,
O glorious and blessed Virgin.

Catholics – then as now – knew that the Blessed Virgin Mary could not “save us from every danger.” But she could ask her Divine Son to save us, praying on our behalf, and that is what we expect in all of our communications with her. No matter how flowery the language that we use in our prayers, we know that she can only pray for us. But her prayers are powerful. She merely called the attention of her Divine Son to the problem at Cana, and He turned water into wine. We have confidence in her prayers with good reason. Catholics have been praying to Mary since the beginning of Christianity because she is a powerful intercessor – miracles happen as a result of her prayers…

Prayers to the BVM are as old as Christianity – petitions are carved into the catacombs. Even the tomb of St. Peter contains an invocation to Mary.

I once was blind, but now I see.

O Mary, conceived without sin, pray for us who have recourse to thee!

Mary’s image can come to my home anytime! In honoring her, I honor her Son, the Redeemer of the world.

Jay
Ex-Southern Baptist

Scripture tells us that we can, and should, pray directly to God. Possibly just possibly, you can justify a prayer to Mary–asking her to intercede with her son–as being no different than asking a close Christian friend to pray for you (and maybe more effective since Mary is in heaven and is the Mother of God). However, when you step over that boundary, when you ask Mary to do something more than to intercede, you are asking of Mary something that is not in her power. In the ancient prayer you cite above, Mary is asked to provide protection, to help us in our needs, and to save us from every danger. That is confusing the roles and persons of Mary and Christ. I do not believe that this prayer is appropriate for those reasons.

 

[rr1213]

Cm is right, you know - we don’t generally going around thinking that Mary is some sort of superhero doing favors left right and centre from her own super powers :nope:

That’s good.

 

[Keikiolu]

I can, reluctantly, see how people could accept the Hail Mary. People will blast me for saying this, but the Hail Holy Queen seems over the top to me.

Considering the wild stuff that happens in the P’Church, “Hail Holy Queen” sounds rather “tame”, don’tcha think?

 

[Mintaka]

Funny this should come up. I was just reading St. John of the Cross on holy images.

Basically, a holy image is a “motive” – it can move us towards greater love of God, greater trust in Him, and greater devotion, through reminding us of important holy truths. At the same time, being a thing, it can distract us. You have to treat it as a useful and holy tool, not as an end in itself.

Special holy days, special events – or a special hosting of a statue in your home – these are all spiritual pick-me-ups, ways we can use to refocus our attention on God, or focus it more strongly. A statue visit is no different than singing a new song to the Lord, or having a special guest speaker give a class.

Now, some people just don’t get much spiritual use out of holy images. That’s fine. But others see the potential for distraction by beauty (or this idolatry thing roll eyes) , and want to ban them for everyone – including those who do get good spiritual results through their use.

It’s amazingly presumptuous, really. “I don’t know you, I don’t know your church, but I do know better than you that you are idolatrous! And if you’re not, you’re not paying attention to Christ!”

Just like the neopagans, really. “I don’t know you, I don’t know your church, but I do know better than you that you’re really worshipping the Goddess! And that you want to burn people!”

And the weirder aggressive atheists. “I know that rosaries are oppressive weapons of Christofascism!”

It’s amazing, how everybody knows better than I do, what I believe and what my spiritual life must be.

Now, I’m not real fond of the Baby Jesus as portrayed in the Infant of Prague statues. But just because I don’t feel any particular call to devotion from those statues of Him, doesn’t mean I call for everybody else to stop. There are corners of the devotional universe which just aren’t useful to me; that doesn’t mean they’re not useful to anybody else. The whole world doesn’t revolve around me (or my time, place, customs, or ethnic group).

You don’t have to like “Hail, Holy Queen”. You don’t even have to say it. But the reason it’s “over the top” is the same reason the Memorare and the Sub Tuum are – they’re prayers for desperate people who want their mommy. Jesus Christ is Love Himself, but unless you’re heavily involved in “suckling the blood of His wounds” spirituality, a mommy He’s not. And humans are designed to want their mommies; He made them that way, and He made Himself that way. He is not so cruel to deprive the desperate of a comfort He designed us to need, when He was glad to see His own mother with Him at His death.

But it doesn’t really matter, does it? If all the faithful departed are part of the Body of Christ, then turning to Mary is turning to Christ. She lives only in Him. And we live in Him, too, and are part of His Body, too. We are always surrounded by that cloud of witnesses; we can never not be with them. Why shouldn’t we talk to our brothers and sisters? How could we do so if not through the Head?

IIRC, the “Hail, Holy Queen” was written by a crippled dwarf monk abandoned by his family. At the monastery, he found friendship and learning, and became a poet and historian.He was known for his wisdom, piety, love of Christ, and love of the Holy Mother – who didn’t abandon him.

And if you ever have the need to pray the “Hail, Holy Queen”, I’m sure you’ll learn to appreciate its sentiments pretty quickly.

 

[rr1213]

Considering the wild stuff that happens in the P’Church, “Hail Holy Queen” sounds rather “tame”, don’tcha think?

If it is right it is right, if it is wrong it is wrong. Whether we are talking about the Episcopal Church or the Catholic Church or any other faith community.

 

[Ghosty]

Our church Deacon went on a trip with a group from the parish to Fatima. He came back with a large statue of the Blessed Virgin Mary that was supposedly blessed by a bishop over there. The statue is now being given to families to bring home for a week to pray the rosary around it.

I can’t seem to put my finger on it, but something about this doesn’t feel right.

Comments? Discussion?

The important aspect includes the blessing, which makes this particular statue different from a run-of-the-mill nonblessed statue. The reason this statue is special is the same reason that Holy Water is different from tap water; the blessing is attached to this particular statue for a furthering of devotion and prayer. It’s a sacramental like any other, and it’s quite proper for it to be treated a little differently.

Peace and God bless!

 

[Revelation13_16]

Scripture tells us that we can, and should, pray directly to God. Possibly just possibly, you can justify a prayer to Mary–asking her to intercede with her son–as being no different than asking a close Christian friend to pray for you (and maybe more effective since Mary is in heaven and is the Mother of God).

In my attempt to understand Catholicism, I ask the following question out of respect.

How do Catholics know Jesus will listen to Mary?

I’m trying to get my head around this, so please help me. (and be nice)

I understand that Mary was Jesus’ mother on Earth, but in heaven, the place where Jesus exsisted before creation and from which He created all things, would he really now hearken to the pleadings of his earthly mother?

I’m struggling with this concept, I don’t see why an omniscient God in his own domain (heaven) would listen to his subjects, it kind of robs God of his sovreignty by putting saints & Mary on the same level as him.

I dunno, maybe you guys can bring me round, please convince me.

Thanks,
Rev

 

[LilyM]

In my attempt to understand Catholicism, I ask the following question out of respect.

How do Catholics know Jesus will listen to Mary?

I’m trying to get my head around this, so please help me. (and be nice)

I understand that Mary was Jesus’ mother on Earth, but in heaven, the place where Jesus exsisted before creation and from which He created all things, would he really now hearken to the pleadings of his earthly mother?

I’m struggling with this concept, I don’t see why an omniscient God in his own domain (heaven) would listen to his subjects, it kind of robs God of his sovreignty by putting saints & Mary on the same level as him.

I dunno, maybe you guys can bring me round, please convince me.

Thanks,
Rev

Heaven isn’t uniquely God’s domain. He created the whole universe, it’s ALL equally his domain. Nor did Jesus uniquely exist only in heaven prior to his birth either. As the Word of God, he has been and was WITH God at every moment, including all of God’s actions throughout history. Just as the Holy Spirit has been - remember the Spirit hovering over the water at the creation and being breathed into Adam’s nostrils? Similarly Jesus, as God’s word was always present on earth as well as in heaven.

Mary wasn’t just the mother of Jesus’ body. NO woman is just the mother of another person’s body. They are the mother of the whole person. Their very life comes from the parents (mother and father). She was the mother of the whole person of Jesus - who was true God AND true Man, united inseparably in the one person.

Now the fact is that as the man, Jesus Christ, God willingly entrusted himself and his omniscient will to the care of and in obedience to his mother and Joseph, not to mention entrusting his mission to his Apostles and his very body to the mercies of those who tortured and killed him.

Besides which, isn’t the very definition of a saint in heaven someone who heard and did the will of God while on Earth? In heaven, since they know as they have been known, they are in total conformity and unity with the will of God. It’s what we Catholics call the Beatific Vision. They don’t ask for anything that is contrary to God’s will. Just as Mary didn’t at Cana, although she did get Jesus to perform his miracle somewhat early

 

[Todd_Easton]

Ah, I understand the concern now. This makes me think of Moses who raised the bronze snake up so that those who got bitten by snake could be healed - and they did. God does bless certain thing there. How come we didn’t see people looking at the bronze snake as idolatrous?
Thanks.!

The bronze snake actually did later became to object of idolatrous worship and for that reason good King Hezekiah destroyed it.
4He [Hezekiah, king of Judah] removed the high places, and broke the pillars, and cut down the Ashe’rah. And he broke in pieces the bronze serpent that Moses had made, for until those days the people of Israel had burned incense to it; it was called Nehush’tan. (2 Kings 18:4)

 

[Sir_Knight]

How is this circulating statue any different than the things the K of C’s circulate from Council to Council with special devotions being held and the item then passed along to the next?

I’m a 4th degree member of the KofC and have been a member for nearly a decade. I’ve been a member in two different council and am presently the Deputy Grand Knight of my current council. I rarely miss a meeting and I have never encountered this of which you speak.

 

[Sir_Knight]

The important aspect includes the blessing, which makes this particular statue different from a run-of-the-mill nonblessed statue. The reason this statue is special is the same reason that Holy Water is different from tap water; the blessing is attached to this particular statue for a furthering of devotion and prayer. It’s a sacramental like any other, and it’s quite proper for it to be treated a little differently.

All of my religious items (statues, pictures, rosaries, etc.) are blessed.

 

[Sir_Knight]

What do you mean “doing something different”?

How does that particular (or any particular, if you like) statue MAKE you do ANYTHING,… much less MAKE you do “something different”?

Our family doesn’t normally pray the rosary every night. We pray together as a family but saying the rosary as a family is usually done on feasts and holydays. However, when the statue makes it’s visit, people are being “encouraged” to say daily rosaries, invite other folks over and hold a public prayer service in the home, etc.

 

[vern_humphrey]

Our family doesn’t normally pray the rosary every night. We pray together as a family but saying the rosary as a family is usually done on feasts and holydays. However, when the statue makes it’s visit, people are being “encouraged” to say daily rosaries, invite other folks over and hold a public prayer service in the home, etc.

And that would be a good thing, right? More praying of the rosary and so on?

 

[water]

The bronze snake actually did later became to object of idolatrous worship and for that reason good King Hezekiah destroyed it.
4He [Hezekiah, king of Judah] removed the high places, and broke the pillars, and cut down the Ashe’rah. And he broke in pieces the bronze serpent that Moses had made, for until those days the people of Israel had burned incense to it; it was called Nehush’tan. (2 Kings 18:4)

Thank you, Todd.

 

[jmcrae]

In my attempt to understand Catholicism, I ask the following question out of respect.

How do Catholics know Jesus will listen to Mary?

Because He is the Son of David, and she is His mother. I’ve forgotten the Hebrew title of the mother of the King, the son of David, but it is the role of “she whose words are listened to” even by the King.

When Bathsheba (mother of Solomon) came to Solomon (King, the son of David), he stopped everything he was doing to listen to her. He heeded her advice, and did as she advised him to do, said what she told him to say, etc.

That is now Mary’s role in the new Davidic Kingdom, which is the Kingdom of Heaven.

The reason that Ahab was bad was because he made Jezebel his Queen in the place of his mother. Because Jezebel his wife was Queen, and not his mother (whose place it was), that’s why God took away the Kingdom, and why there was no Davidic King until Jesus was born.

Jesus restored the Davidic Kingdom, but not on earth - He restored it in Heaven, and the way it works in Heaven is how it worked in the Davidic Kingdom. Mary is the Queen, and has the role of the Davidic Queen. Peter and his successors became the gate-keeper, and has the role of the Davidic gatekeeper.

I understand that Mary was Jesus’ mother on Earth, but in heaven, the place where Jesus exsisted before creation and from which He created all things, would he really now hearken to the pleadings of his earthly mother?

Because of her role as the Davidic Queen, yes, He would. Also, keep in mind that while man and wife are “until death they do part,” blood relationships are not like that. Jesus is still related by blood to His mother. He is still her son, and always will be. Neither Mary nor Jesus put off their humanity when they went to Heaven - and neither will we.

I’m struggling with this concept, I don’t see why an omniscient God in his own domain (heaven) would listen to his subjects, it kind of robs God of his sovreignty by putting saints & Mary on the same level as him.

But not when a Protestant pastor, or a mother here on earth prays on behalf of someone else? I’m not sure why it would be any different. After all, all of time, space, and eternity belong to God. Heaven is just as created of a place as the earth is - it’s just that it’s a spiritual place instead of a physical place.

 

[Pax]

Problem with a particular statue?

I agree with an earlier poster that pointed out that a statue blessed at Fatima or Lourdes might add another layer of devotional attraction. This may in turn increase a person’s desire to pray more often and with greater reflection.

My only problem with people placing special emphasis on a particular statue arises only from the following:

The statue itself is not the target of the devotion. It is instead a devotional aid. It is something that can spur our imagination to heavenly thoughts and reflections. Unfortunately, I have heard statements and expressions that “seem” to go beyond that in the past. When this happens I get a little “twitchy.”

Naturally, I give everyone the benefit of the doubt because I do not know if their verbal expressions are slightly off plumb while their hearts and minds remain congruent with Catholic practice and belief.

The most unsettling remarks that I have heard are those that sound as if the speaker is adding an element of “personification” to the statue.

Perhaps this is what is also disturbing the OP.

 

[rwoehmke]

I’m a 4th degree member of the KofC and have been a member for nearly a decade. I’ve been a member in two different council and am presently the Deputy Grand Knight of my current council. I rarely miss a meeting and I have never encountered this of which you speak.

All you have to do is read Columbia, the K of C monthly magazine. I am 3rd degree and have been active for about 40 years plus. Glad to know you are a friend of Chris.

 

[LindaS]

Our church Deacon went on a trip with a group from the parish to Fatima. He came back with a large statue of the Blessed Virgin Mary that was supposedly blessed by a bishop over there. The statue is now being given to families to bring home for a week to pray the rosary around it.

I can’t seem to put my finger on it, but something about this doesn’t feel right.

Comments? Discussion?

There is nothing wrong with this. The statue is known as the Pilgrim Virgin, and many parishes have one which is taken from home to home for a week, and the family agrees to pray the Rosary daily while the statue is in their home. The Pilgrim Virgin is usually a statue of Our Lady of Fatima, so the one in your parish is right on.

Peace,
Linda