Cantors

[Rykell]

I do also think that if someone is having problems with the Missal and following, ask Father if you can take one home and follow an EWTN Holy Mass.

In the EWTN Holy Mass, it is pretty obvious that in their choir, the conductor is waving his arms to direct them. If, with all their rehearsals beforehand, they still require a wave of the arm to keep them on track, how much more would an untrained congregation need cues from a cantor?

 

[netmilsmom]

In the EWTN Holy Mass, it is pretty obvious that in their choir, the conductor is waving his arms to direct them. If, with all their rehearsals beforehand, they still require a wave of the arm to keep them on track, how much more would an untrained congregation need cues from a cantor?

The untrained congregation of an EWTN Holy Mass sometimes from all over the USA seem to do just fine without the wave to keep them on track. Look where the choir is in an EWTN Holy Mass. They are behind the altar, behind a wall. How do is the congregation lead by this?
And there is not a choir everyday for the Holy Mass, the priest leads them.

As I stated before, I have lived nearly 46 years without a Cantor leading me at Holy Mass with a “bringing up” motion. Why are the congregations of today, not able to get this?

They ARE! Please don’t think they can’t, because all you are doing is pushing a role that while very nice to have, is not needed.

I love our Cantor, who is not a showman, and I love our choirs. But the Holy Mass is still the Holy Mass even without them.
It’s about Jesus, not about the pretty music or the broadway type show.

And how I have to take my girls to choir.

 

[SMHW]

well I attend Church in NJ …all our pews have them
I always thought this was the NORM in CHurchs…to have Missals…is it not?

I’d say it’s the norm in about half the churches around here.

 

[netmilsmom]

This not only embraces “horizontal” worship by building a communal voice but also vertical worship by removing impediments to the worshiper and the prayerful act of singing the psalm.

:bigyikes::bigyikes::bigyikes:

I know you are a convert. Please understand that we are not suppose to be making our Holy Mass about each other.
A Holy Mass can be said by a priest alone.

Really, the whole “Gather Faithfully Together” movement was pushing the envelope of innovation. Thank God Mother Angelica got to it and opened all our eyes.

From here…aquinas-multimedia.com/catherine/selfevaluation.html

The excessive use of the term “minister” throughout both liturgical pastorals reaches the heights of absurdity. Greeters are ministers; ushers are ministers; readers are ministers; and, according to Bishop Trautman’s document, even the entire assembly partakes in the “ministry of listening.” But according to Ecclesiae de Mysterio, the 1997 document released by the Vatican, “a minister is not a minister simply in performing a task, but through sacramental ordination.”
Many of the recommendations made by both Cardinal Mahony and Bishop Trautman tend to promote a “horizontal worship” focusing primarily on the gathered assembly rather than a “vertical worship,” focussing on the Trinity. In other words, the recommendations made, by and large, ratify the liturgical innovations that promote horizontal worship.
In contrast, Sacrosanctum Concilium, Vatican II’s Constitution on the Sacred Liturgy, states that “there must be no innovations unless the good of the Church genuinely and certainly requires them.”

 

[Joysong]

In contrast, Sacrosanctum Concilium, Vatican II’s Constitution on the Sacred Liturgy, states that "there must be no innovations unless the good of the Church genuinely and certainly requires them.

Cantors are an innovation? Piffle! I believe I posted the GIRM statute permitting and advocating that they be used. Why do you insist upon stating practices in liturgy as fact, when it is merely your preference?

 

[netmilsmom]

Cantors are an innovation? Piffle! I believe I posted the GIRM statute permitting and advocating that they be used. Why do you insist upon stating practices in liturgy as fact, when it is merely your preference?

If you look, there is a link above this statement.
That normally means that someone other than myself wrote it and I am just referencing.

In fact, in that post it’s really easy to see that it’s a quote from somewhere else because it’s in a different font.

Does that help?

 

[Joysong]

Netmil(name removed by moderator):

As I stated before, I have lived nearly 46 years without a Cantor leading me at Holy Mass with a “bringing up” motion. Why are the congregations of today, not able to get this?

They ARE! Please don’t think they can’t,** because all you are doing is pushing a role that while very nice to have, is not needed.**

I love our Cantor, who is not a showman, and I love our choirs. But the Holy Mass is still the Holy Mass even without them.
It’s about Jesus, not about the pretty music or the broadway type show.

You may think our heads are in the sand, but your obvious dislke for cantors is highly apparent. “Broadway type show,” indeed! You insult the ministry of those who are dedicated and are being very judgmental of their motives.

If you look, there is a link above this statement.
That normally means that someone other than myself wrote it and I am just referencing.

The only point in your referencing was to oppose the words of Anamchara below, implying your opinion that this is an innovation.

Anamchara:

This not only embraces “horizontal” worship by building a communal voice but also vertical worship by removing impediments to the worshiper and the prayerful act of singing the psalm

 

[netmilsmom]

You may think our heads are in the sand, but your obvious dislke for cantors is highly apparent. “Broadway type show,” indeed! You insult the ministry of those who are dedicated and are being very judgmental of their motives.

Go back to post 11 and read what a Cantor says…

I’m a trained cantor and have been involved in church music for more than 40 years (since I was in children’s choir).

When I was in my teens and early 20s I went through what I call the “Star Seach” phase, where I wanted all eyes on me, and took every opportunity to sing melodramatic solos. Then I “got religion” and learned the proper place of a cantor.

Now I see my ministry as humbly leading the congregation in song, and to intone various parts of the Mass and the Responsorial Psalm.

When I do the intoning and the Psalm verses, I sing closer to the microphone so the words are crystal clear. I don’t use any fancy-schmancy vibrato or vocal gymnastics – the words are the focus. When leading the congregation, I move farther back from the mike once the people know what in heck is going on. SOMEONE has to begin the congregational singing!

'thann

 

[netmilsmom]

The only point in referencing your was to oppose the words of Anamchara below, implying your agreement with the reference that this is an innovation.

Referencing my?

 

[SMHW]

Maybe in your diocese, but the only place I have seen this in person is while visiting FL.

Cantors, readers, and EMHCs are exoected to attend a certain number of certification hours, some general, some specific to the particular ministry. The cantor training portion includeds instruction about bringing in the congregation. I’ve heard cantors discussing how the preferred methods have changed over the years. I imagine this goes on in different parts of the country and the methods travel from one place to another.

I’m thinking that your parish should stop paying the Cantor and buy some Missals.

I’m not sure how many of our cantors are paid. The two I knew for sure that were paid no longer cantor for our parish. In any case, I don’t think the cost is the issue. I don’t think my pastor wants people looking in missals. He prefers people to look up. His choice, I guess.

Perhaps the reason why the Priest does not sing is because there is a Cantor.
We attend 9:30am Holy Mass. There is a Cantor and every fourth Sunday, our children’s choir. The Priest does not sing.
At the 6:30 Holy Mass where my hubby is an Usher, no choir, no cantor. The Priest chants and by that cue, the organist plays.

Things definitely changed when the new pastor came in. The cantor situation didn’t change. Our current pastor prefers not to sing at Mass. This includes weekday Masses.

Actually I was glad to have the cantor today. Since I was on vacation during our choir practice I decided I should sit with the rest of the assembly rather than sing with the choir this morning. I realized I had no idea what the melody line for the memorial acclamation and great amen were. And since the altos (my part) don’t sing at the same time as the melody I didn’t even know WHEN I should sing. I don’t know the alto line well enough to sing it without the notes in front of me so I just followed along with the cantor.

I admire people that can sing well with an organ. I have a terrible problem keeping time with one. I pretty much have to tune out the sound and watch the choir director’s hand. I’ve noticed that those choir members that get their cue from the organ rather than watching the director tend to be a few fractions of a second behind the beat of the song.

(I admit that lack of exact precision in the timing of songs, particularly cutoffs, is a personal pet peeve. I find myself squirming in my seat when I visit a parish that doesn’t share my view. And yes, I do offer it up.)

 

[Strummer]

There seem to be three main thrusts of this thread. The first on the issue of the necessity of cantors. Secondly on the idea of cantors calling attention to themselves or creating a “Broadway type show”. And finally of the appropriateness and/or necessity of “bringing in” the congregation with a raised hand gesture.

The first issue has been well discussed with some good points made on both sides, so I won’t belabor that except to say that I beleive those who made the case FOR cantors seemed to have the stronger argument. But then I am biased as I myself am an ersatz cantor at our parish.

The second issue is an important and yet subjective question of style. Setting aside the obvious mike-hogging crooner in love with his own voice, simply being inordinately gifted and talented could “call attention” even when that was not the intent of the cantor. I think (hope!) I will forever recall our Memorial Day Jazz Mass at our cathedral. I was blessed to be in the choir while Dr. ValLimar Jansen canted. This woman is a professional singer with several recordings and conducted herself with the utmost reverance for the Mass and the Eucharist. But let me tell you, her voice was so powerful that I believe my bones are still vibrating from it. Now, some of you may say that her “performance” was all about her. But I would tell you that while she was an incredible talent, her gifts lifted us all toward the Holy Spirit.

Now to the third point: the hand-raising and it’s role in ego-izing the cantor. We may be talking a difference of degrees here. Netmil(name removed by moderator) refers to it as a “touchdown” position which implies both arms extended to their fullest directly over the shoulders. Not only have I have never seen this but I cannot even imagine this taking place. Not only is it riduculous but that position makes singing rather difficult. Perhaps we were being mislead there, exaggerating for the sake of making a point of personal preference? Cute. However, I have (and try to do myself) a far more subtle but nonetheless distinct single-handed gesture of about shoulder height. Frankly I have a real problem understanding how this can draw attention to one’s self. I mean, during the psalm the cantor is the only person singing. Attention is ALREADY drawn; the hand motion does not do this. That is a false accusation. As to the necessity, I do not see how having your nose buried in a missal so as to not miss your cue is condusive to a meaningful worship–far better to have your eyes (and ears) up to receive God’s Word as the psalms were meant to be received: by hearing them. Furthermore, not everyone receives information in the same manner. Some folks are readers and some are hearers. I know of people with learning disabilities who even as adults struggle with reading. Are they somehow not fit to be Catholic? Of course not! A modestly gesturing cantor benefits all. Those who want to read can still read–and with thier faces turned down to their missals I don’t see how they can be bothered by a cantor’s gesture–and those who prefer to hear and respond can still do so.

 

[anamchara]

:bigyikes::bigyikes::bigyikes:

I know you are a convert. Please understand that we are not suppose to be making our Holy Mass about each other.
A Holy Mass can be said by a priest alone.

 

[Strummer]

I’m thinking that your parish should stop paying the Cantor and buy some Missal

Paying?!? You mean I could be getting paid?!
Eh, truth be told, I’d rather they spend the money on enough music missals to fill the pews to supplant the dailies we have. The song selection is…well, somewhat lacking.

 

[baltobetsy]

I have seen the “touchdown” gesture in two places, and in neither did it seem inappropriate. One was in the Cathedral of Mary Our Queen here in Baltimore, a church with a very long nave. The second was in the Basilica of the National Shrine of the Immaculate Conception in Washington, DC, which has an even longer and wider nave. The subtle gesture which does not call attention to the cantor would be invisible to most of the people in either of these buildings. For those sitting close to the cantor, I suppose it looks a bit overdone, but for those in the back, it’s barely visible.

In my 30 years as a cantor, I have tried hard not to be obnoxious, and, in my much smaller church, I use a much smaller hand gesture, which is easily seen from anywhere.

Betsy

 

[SeekerJen]

Paying?!? You mean I could be getting paid?!
Eh, truth be told, I’d rather they spend the money on enough music missals to fill the pews to supplant the dailies we have. The song selection is…well, somewhat lacking.

Yeah, none of us are paid either. None of us would expect to be paid, as our parish has more important things on which to spend its limited funds (ya know, stuff like keeping the buildings up to code, making sure parish employees have good health care, etc.). And no, that doesn’t make us lousy. I’m the only parish cantor who isn’t professionally trained (we have several volunteers with degrees in music) and most people don’t believe me when I tell them that. So no, free cantors don’t automatically equal bad music. Just wanted to clear up that misconception from earlier in the thread.

 

[Karin]

Now to the third point: the hand-raising and it’s role in ego-izing the cantor. We may be talking a difference of degrees here. Netmil(name removed by moderator) refers to it as a “touchdown” position which implies both arms extended to their fullest directly over the shoulders. Not only have I have never seen this but I cannot even imagine this taking place. Not only is it riduculous but that position makes singing rather difficult. Perhaps we were being mislead there, exaggerating for the sake of making a point of personal preference? Cute. However, I have (and try to do myself) a far more subtle but nonetheless distinct single-handed gesture of about shoulder height. Frankly I have a real problem understanding how this can draw attention to one’s self. I mean, during the psalm the cantor is the only person singing. Attention is ALREADY drawn; the hand motion does not do this. That is a false accusation. As to the necessity, I do not see how having your nose buried in a missal so as to not miss your cue is condusive to a meaningful worship–far better to have your eyes (and ears) up to receive God’s Word as the psalms were meant to be received: by hearing them. Furthermore, not everyone receives information in the same manner. Some folks are readers and some are hearers. I know of people with learning disabilities who even as adults struggle with reading. Are they somehow not fit to be Catholic? Of course not! A modestly gesturing cantor benefits all. Those who want to read can still read–and with thier faces turned down to their missals I don’t see how they can be bothered by a cantor’s gesture–and those who prefer to hear and respond can still do so.

courtesy of www.holyinn.org

holyinn.org/cgi-bin/imageFolio.cgi?direct=Cherry_Valley/New_Church/Dedication&img=24

holyinn.org/gallery/Cherry_Valley/New_Church/Dedication/119a.jpg

 

[Strummer]

Thank you for proving my point, Karin. No “touchdown” pose. Also, though the pic doesn’t give a full view, looking at the cinderblock behind them this appears to be a somewhat large building necessitating larger gestures. But I could be mistaken as not enough info was supplied.

 

[Karin]

Thank you for proving my point, Karin. No “touchdown” pose. Also, though the pic doesn’t give a full view, looking at the cinderblock behind them this appears to be a somewhat large building necessitating larger gestures. But I could be mistaken as not enough info was supplied.

well if you put there arms together they are each one half of the touchdown pose

 

[anamchara]

Yeah, none of us are paid either. None of us would expect to be paid, as our parish has more important things on which to spend its limited funds (ya know, stuff like keeping the buildings up to code, making sure parish employees have good health care, etc.). And no, that doesn’t make us lousy. I’m the only parish cantor who isn’t professionally trained (we have several volunteers with degrees in music) and most people don’t believe me when I tell them that. So no, free cantors don’t automatically equal bad music. Just wanted to clear up that misconception from earlier in the thread.

Our parish is pretty small Jen, we don’t have a paid position for a DRE either. Is your parish small as well?

 

[Strummer]

well if you put there arms together they are each one half of the touchdown pose

And if you put the heads together you’d have a freak show. What is you point? That if you squint your eyes just so and tilt your head and wave your hand back and forth you might, just might, see something you can complain about?