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godisgood77
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Cardinal Burke and Grand Master Festing defied wishes of Pope Francis by sacking Grand Chancellor
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Stat_Crux
Guest
Benedict XVI and John Paul II were both very pro-Vatican II, which is precisely why they defended it all those years against “Traditionalist” Catholics who disputed Vatican II. Benedict XVI very significantly so, given his first-hand involvement in it in his younger days. In fact, he explicitly taught that the Church cannot roll back the clock and pretend Vatican II didn’t happen, which is precisely why he taught the “hermeneutic of continuity”, which says that Vatican II can only be interpreted in continuity with the Church’s history and that it must be recognised as having happened and contributed something to the Church’s teaching, as opposed to the hermeneutic of rupture which states that Vatican II represents a radical departure from the Church’s past teaching and practice in contradiction to the Church’s past teachings.True about using terms, but I think its fair to say there is a pre-V2 mentality which hopes for a return to the “good old days” - despite the fact there were disagreements and controversy before V2.
What is upsetting some of these folks IMO is that they thought the two recent Pontificates were going to reverse V2. Even though neither Pope ever so declared.
These two pontificates should be looked upon as a pause in the unfolding of V2. A needed pause but one that is now over as the renewal envisioned by V2 continues to unfold anew.
Dogmas do not evolve. I’m not sure if you’re aware of the technical meaning of that word, but the “evolution” of Dogma has been explicitly condemned by the Church’s teaching Magisterium. Evolution in the theological sense is used to mean Dogmas can fundamentally change from one thing into another, or contradict previous versions of themselves or the principles that they represent.Discernment of dogmas about the nature of marriage and communion and how they are evolving in the Church under Francis are a part of this unfolding of V2.
And if this discernment decides that the traditional teaching of the Church is reaffirmed, you’ll accept it? Will you accept it as where the Holy Spirit is leading the Church? Or will you insist on further discernment until a position is reached that you agree with? Not drawing a parallel with today’s situation, but hypothetically would you have said that the Holy Spirit guided most of the Western Bishops into the heresy of Arianism? Or that the Holy Spirit guided Martin Luther into attacking and breaking away from the Church?I think there will be discussion and further discernment on the nature of the priesthood, the use of contraception and more. Not all under the current Pope, but he is placing Cardinal voters in place who are open to where the Spirit is leading the Church which will likely affect the selection of future Popes.
Welcoming in the sense of respectful, but not in the sense of being indifferent to the fundamental differences between Christianity and Islam, or ignoring that Islam does not represent God’s plan for the salvation of mankind. If we assert that Islam is on the same level as the Gospel we would be denying Christ, who died for us and our sins and taught that he was the Triune God. Islam denies all of these things, and in fact the Jesus appearing in the koran spends most of his time denying his divinity. Both cannot be correct. However, in spite of those fundamental differences, we are called to respect their choice; albeit without compromising the truth of the Gospel message.The Lepanto Institute is something Cardinal Burke should be wary of. It is Islamophobic and maybe that is where he picked up his idea expressed in a recent interview that we (Christians, Europe) should be afraid of Islam. That totally contradicts the welcoming embrace the Pope is showing for Islam.
The words “discern” and “discernment” are being thrown around with little apparent consideration of what it actually means. You say that Cardinal Burke and other need to “truly discern” AL? What if they already have discerned in reaching the conclusions they have? Or do you instead mean that they have only “truly” discerned once they agree with your position?Too many otherwise decent and good Catholics are falling for some of these groups like the LI. Chaput has condemned this group and another which has a similar profile.
Some in the Catholic media who are otherwise rational seem to be going over the deep end over AL and Islam. One beautiful magazine I’ve subscribed to for years is writing some troubling things on these topics which is out of the norm for them.
Let’s pray for Cardinal Burke and others to truly discern AL and other current hot button issues.
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godisgood77
Guest
+Burke and the Lepanto institute were at the center of this drama is seems.
‘The Cardinal pushed for action on the condoms distribution matter despite the order having conducted their own internal inquiry into the matter. But the dispute was re-opened when the Lepanto Institute, a self-appointed doctrinal watchdog based in the US, submitted a report on the matter to Cardinal Burke.’
thetablet.co.uk/news/6690/0/former-grand-master-says-knights-drama-not-finished-
‘The Cardinal pushed for action on the condoms distribution matter despite the order having conducted their own internal inquiry into the matter. But the dispute was re-opened when the Lepanto Institute, a self-appointed doctrinal watchdog based in the US, submitted a report on the matter to Cardinal Burke.’
thetablet.co.uk/news/6690/0/former-grand-master-says-knights-drama-not-finished-
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pnewton
Guest
I do not know how much of this is true. I would hate to think anyone would believe Michael Hickborn over the official inquiry. It really doesn’t even matter who is right. This sort of laity end around the Church is no better than any other Church gossips seeking petty control of some issue at a local parish. Catholic gossips are not better just because the blog and dress up a nice website.
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robertmidwest
Guest
europe.newsweek.com/mysterious-posters-rome-accuse-pope-attacking-conservatives-552695
Posters accusing Pope Francis of attacking conservative Catholics appeared around Rome this weekend and were swiftly covered up by city authorities.
The posters appeared several hours before the Vatican announced the name of the pope’s personal delegate to the troubled order, a move that side-lined conservative Cardinal Raymond Leo Burke, who had been its chaplain since 2014 and is a frequent critic of the pope.
Father Antonio Spadaro, a Jesuit who is close to the pope, said in a tweet that they were a sign that Francis was doing a good job and therefore irritating many people.
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RCinMT
Guest
Your comment reveals your mind: the Church will discuss and discern the priesthood, contraception and more; good Catholics; and openness “to where the Spirit is leading it”.True about using terms, but I think its fair to say there is a pre-V2 mentality which hopes for a return to the “good old days” - despite the fact there were disagreements and controversy before V2.
What is upsetting some of these folks IMO is that they thought the two recent Pontificates were going to reverse V2. Even though neither Pope ever so declared.
These two pontificates should be looked upon as a pause in the unfolding of V2. A needed pause but one that is now over as the renewal envisioned by V2 continues to unfold anew.
Discernment of dogmas about the nature of marriage and communion and how they are evolving in the Church under Francis are a part of this unfolding of V2.
I think there will be discussion and further discernment on the nature of the priesthood, the use of contraception and more. Not all under the current Pope, but he is placing Cardinal voters in place who are open to where the Spirit is leading the Church which will likely affect the selection of future Popes.
The Lepanto Institute is something Cardinal Burke should be wary of. It is Islamophobic and maybe that is where he picked up his idea expressed in a recent interview that we (Christians, Europe) should be afraid of Islam. That totally contradicts the welcoming embrace the Pope is showing for Islam.
Too many otherwise decent and good Catholics are falling for some of these groups like the LI. Chaput has condemned this group and another which has a similar profile.
Some in the Catholic media who are otherwise rational seem to be going over the deep end over AL and Islam. One beautiful magazine I’ve subscribed to for years is writing some troubling things on these topics which is out of the norm for them.
Let’s pray for Cardinal Burke and others to truly discern AL and other current hot button issues.
-How do you know the Church will discuss these things? And why should it: the teachings are based on foundational biblical truths and are not open to change. And frankly I don’t know why people who are not Catholic–be they atheist, Christian, Muslim or unaffiliated–should be concerned with Church teachings on these things. I mean, aside from the obvious that it bothers them that there is a body that continues to defy relativism and modernity.
-Do you know something about the Holy Spirit which we do not? E.g. Where the spirit is leading the Church? That comment seems quite presumptuous on the surface.
-As Catholics are not in a place to judge who is a “good” Catholic, you as a non-Catholic certainly are not.
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ringil
Guest
Why would a Cardinal give credence to such a divisive and fringe group like Lepanto?
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Tantum_ergo
Guest
My personal hope is that both Pope Francis and Cardinal Burke are completely innocent, and that persons unknown (and who will hopefully be unmasked soon) have misinterpreted each to the other. It is possible, you know; in fact, it is more than probable that this is yet another tactic to try to manufacture a split within the Church that is in fact not really there at all.Why would a Cardinal give credence to such a divisive and fringe group like Lepanto?
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godisgood77
Guest
Great question… really hard to understand why he would associate with such an organization.Why would a Cardinal give credence to such a divisive and fringe group like Lepanto?
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RCinMT
Guest
Yes and no. Nobody has denied that the Lepanto reporting about the distribution of condoms was false…in fact, it has been confirmed.Great question… really hard to understand why he would associate with such an organization.
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Hoosier_Daddy
Guest
Why would we judge that?Why would a Cardinal give credence to such a divisive and fringe group like Lepanto?
I trust the cardinal knows more than us about the situation
Where is the charity?
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Tantum_ergo
Guest
I agree. The poor moderators. They have stated over and over the rules about charity, but people like to skate close to the edge, apparently.Why would we judge that?
I trust the cardinal knows more than us about the situation
Where is the charity?
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godisgood77
Guest
Well… this is an interesting thing… the Knights of Malta knew about the condom issues a few years ago, investigated it and closed the case after stopping the condom distribution.This week whole drama was about an issue that was already closed by the appropriate authorities.Yes and no. Nobody has denied that the Lepanto reporting about the distribution of condoms was false…in fact, it has been confirmed.
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godisgood77
Guest
I don’t see this as an issue of charity… the Cardinal’s association with the Lepanto Institute is a legitimate question. Are we not allowed to question?I agree. The poor moderators. They have stated over and over the rules about charity, but people like to skate close to the edge, apparently.
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Tantum_ergo
Guest
Sure. I just don’t see exactly what the association of Cardinal Burke and the Lepanto Institute actually was. No doubt people will enlighten me.I don’t see this as an issue of charity… the Cardinal’s association with the Lepanto Institute is a legitimate question. Are we not allowed to question?
Oh wait, I see a snippet from “The Tablet”. Um, not exactly an ‘unbiased source’ there. . .
and so far I don’t see any other sources that don’t lead back to that. . . hmmm
Not only that, but the Lepanto Institute has a green light from Catholic Culture (usually a fairly reliable source) and an excellence for fidelity, so what exactly is the problem with it?
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robertmidwest
Guest
lacrossetribune.com/news/opinion/editorial/columnists/vince-hatt-playing-hardball-no-longer-a-winning-strategy-for/article_85ec5116-4b4a-55ab-8fa5-86cde2794ea4.html
So what is Burke’s job now?Francis will appoint a special delegate to “take care of the spiritual and moral renewal of the order.” The pope’s letter did not clarify how the delegate’s responsibility would intersect with those of Burke.
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godisgood77
Guest
From Catholic Culture on Lepanto…Chaput is also usually pretty reliable.Sure. I just don’t see exactly what the association of Cardinal Burke and the Lepanto Institute actually was. No doubt people will enlighten me.
Oh wait, I see a snippet from “The Tablet”. Um, not exactly an ‘unbiased source’ there. . .
and so far I don’t see any other sources that don’t lead back to that. . . hmmm
Not only that, but the Lepanto Institute has a green light from Catholic Culture (usually a fairly reliable source) and an excellence for fidelity, so what exactly is the problem with it?
The back story is that the self proclaimed Catholic watchdog Lepanto, prepared an unsolicited report and submitted to Cardinal Burke directly… you can easily find evidence of this from Lepanto itself or a simple google search. So it appears this whole ordeal didn’t even originate from inside of the sovereign Knights organization.
catholicculture.org/news/headlines/index.cfm?storyid=25955
From Chaput:
The Lepanto Institute has proven once again that it is not interested in presenting information in any useful way. Neither the World Meeting of Families—Philadelphia 2015 nor any of its leadership supports Planned Parenthood. Lepanto’s sole intention is to create division, confusion, and conflict within the Church. Actions of that nature run contrary to Christian tradition. Their reports are not to be taken seriously.
That is a pretty serious and forthright condemnation
My personal opinion is that by dragging the already closed condom issue back up, Lepanto has once again prove that it is not interested in presenting information in a useful way…
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Hoosier_Daddy
Guest
Liaison to the SSPX?
Jk
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robertmidwest
Guest
I was thinking more like a life time of “prayer” in a room in the Vatican.Liaison to the SSPX?
Jk
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Hoosier_Daddy
Guest
If that is a reference to bxviI was thinking more like a life time of “prayer” in a room in the Vatican.
You should be ashamed.
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