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Laetus
Guest
It’s not “provably false.” It’s something that has been completely vitiated – at least in the Christian world.
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wasserfall
Guest
You are very stubbornly confusing the text of the mosaic law with the very fact that the text exists.
No one is claiming that the mosaic law places a requirement on Catholic priests to vest in any particular manner whatsoever.
The only claim is that the existence of the law proves that God did care about what the Hebrew priests wore. And then, as God does not change, we can infer that God is not indifferent to dress.
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superamazingman
Guest
Appropriate vesture for a priest, that is. It doesn’t say a miter can be worn in GIRM 335-346, but no one argues about that. There’s also the ceremonal of bishops.
Here’s a quick run through of everything.
cappa magna
Before Mass, so he can wear whatever he wants.
buskins, pontifical sandals
Are you proposing he celebrate Mass barefoot? He has to wear something, so he mind as wear the right thing for a bishop to wear.
gloves
I can’t find the refference at this moment, but I can assure you, it’s still licit. Feel free to write CDW if you don’t believe me.
pontifical dalmatic
For pete’s sake, the pontifical dalmatic is specificicly stated in the current ceremonial of bishops!
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Laetus
Guest
I’m simply saying the mosaic text does not apply to Christians. To suggest God cares how Catholic priests vest based on Exodus is rather silly.
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Laetus
Guest
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superamazingman
Guest
Is God a different God then and now? If he thinks ritual garments are important then, it’s not a surprise at to say they are important now.
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superamazingman
Guest
He said it wasn’t rubricially permissible, and I answered every claim.
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John_of_Patmos
Guest
The Cardinal and Oratorians put on a Mass that I would very likely give up two EFs per month to go to:
newliturgicalmovement.org/2012/05/cardinal-burke-at-london-oratory_30.html
It was the Feast–at Oratories, actually a Solemnity–of St. Philip Neri.
And yes, for the record, he wore a cappa magna, and buskins, and pontifical sandals, and gloves. Oh and a pontifical dalmatic, but these are becoming so increasingly common that it’s kind of pointless to mention it.
The Kyrie and Gloria were from Haydn’s Theresienmesse, the Credo was III, and the Sanctus and Agnus Dei–I’m not sure which–were from the Liber Usualis. The Sanctus and Agnus Dei would have been the polyphonic settings, but since you can’t “layer” the singing “over” the ritual, the Mass would have been rather prolonged. The Ordinary Form is an extreme impediment to singing longer polyphonic settings for this reason. Nevertheless, it was magnificent I’m sure.
Pics are too large for this forum, but go have a look.
PS: So much for the 1970s… this is surely the 1670s!
I saw that earlier. I thought it was an EF. Can any parish priest do this (offer OF like this)?
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triumphguy
Guest
OK - I’m going to apologize.
What I should have said at first was> Tradcath - it is heartening to see that you found an OF mass you can feel uplifted by.
And I should have stopped there.
I was being contrary.
I have tastes - we all have tastes.
In Brompton Oratory that mass was very fitting. It fits the surroundings and it fits the history of the particular Church.
bromptonoratory.com/Oratory_Home.html
http://thewayofbeauty.org/files/2011/01/london-oratory.jpg
http://thewayofbeauty.org/files/2011/01/2357609866_f1d896e766_b.jpg
(Please Note: This uploaded content is no longer available.)
What I should have said at first was> Tradcath - it is heartening to see that you found an OF mass you can feel uplifted by.
And I should have stopped there.
I was being contrary.
I have tastes - we all have tastes.
In Brompton Oratory that mass was very fitting. It fits the surroundings and it fits the history of the particular Church.
bromptonoratory.com/Oratory_Home.html
http://thewayofbeauty.org/files/2011/01/london-oratory.jpg
http://thewayofbeauty.org/files/2011/01/2357609866_f1d896e766_b.jpg
(Please Note: This uploaded content is no longer available.)
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Laetus
Guest
Our COVENANT with God – Jesus Christ, is hugely different.
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Laetus
Guest
buskins, pontifical sandals
Are you proposing he celebrate Mass barefoot? He has to wear something, so he mind as wear the right thing for a bishop to wear.
I would agree that buskins and pontifical sandals are acceptable in a utilitarian sense (he pretty much has to wear something) but I don’t see them being “the right thing for a bishop to wear.” That’s all I meant by my comment.
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Laetus
Guest
I remember reading some arcane rule somewhere where priests and prelates used to be able to have buckles on their shoes but now they are suppressed?
One has to wonder why the Church even addresses such things?
One has to wonder why the Church even addresses such things?
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wasserfall
Guest
They were required to wear buckled shoes, and now they are no longer required to do so (although they may).I remember reading some arcane rule somewhere where priests and prelates used to be able to have buckles on their shoes but now they are suppressed?
One has to wonder why the Church even addresses such things?
It is very likely that there was a practical reason for the requirement in the days before shoe laces. Maybe it was to prevent tripping.
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TrueLight
Guest
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Laetus
Guest
No. The wearing of shoes with buckles was actually suppressed. It had to do with the status of the shoes or something along those lines. they were a status symbol compared to simple slip-on shoes with no buckles (which were purely ornamental.) I doubt they have ever been “un-suppressed” although only a very odd priest would wear such shoes today and/or worry about such odd rules from the past.
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YoungTradCath
Guest
They are the right thing for a bishop to wear, and centuries of tradition supports this uninterruptedly. Now, a bishop can wear Nike basketball shoes if he likes during Mass (really not trying to be snarky, but this effectively the case) because there are no requirements.
However, it is fitting to say that buskins and sandals are proper to bishops and are “the right thing” more so than any other random shoe.
Their requirement is suppressed but priests and prelates are free to wear buckled shoes if they wish.I remember reading some arcane rule somewhere where priests and prelates used to be able to have buckles on their shoes but now they are suppressed?
One has to wonder why the Church even addresses such things?
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liturgyluver
Guest
There is nothing particularly special about the music here. Almost all the central London churches, have lovely music incorporating Polyphonic settings and motets every Sunday.
As a Londoner, I don’t particularly care for the Oratory - too dark and cavernous. Their masses are often late in starting, they never have enough books and I think there are better choirs elsewhere - though I must concede they do a rather splendid Solemn Vespers.
As a Londoner, I don’t particularly care for the Oratory - too dark and cavernous. Their masses are often late in starting, they never have enough books and I think there are better choirs elsewhere - though I must concede they do a rather splendid Solemn Vespers.
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YoungTradCath
Guest
It seems central London is rather spoiled then. =)
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triumphguy
Guest
My cousin was in Westminster Cathedral Choir, so I went to quite a few services there. That choir is magnificent!
You are right about the Oratory - I find it dark and gloomy too. And I don’t particularly like the cathedral either - it’s even darker. I prefer Gothic to byzantine or Romanesque.
Unfortunately the Protestants got all the best Catholic Churches
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Sarabande
Guest
So true. My first time out of the U.S. was in college spending a semester in London. I was completely floored by the music liturgies there. Whenever I had the time, I’d attend mass, vespers, etc. After being told as a child that no one liked or rendered that kind of music for prayer at mass anymore, it was like my eyes were opened and a spiritual hole was filled within my soul.
When I came back to the States, it was difficult going back in many ways feeling almost like a stranger and out of place back in my homeland. Music liturgy at mass also changed for me, as I was part of the music liturgy at my college. And it’s not like I never heard the music before. I did, as I studied music, but never at mass and I remember my Jewish voice teacher telling me how sad it was for my Church when they threw out such a treasure of sacred music. I didn’t understand how sad it was (She was well trained in chant as well… Christian and Jewish chant…so she trained me singing that way including singing classically and operatically) until I actually heard it at mass. It was a completely different experience spiritually once I heard it in the place where it was meant to be sung. I ended up leaving the Newman Center and actually found a parish which did this music mainly because I wanted to learn more and use my training and talents with the sacred music that my voice was being trained for.
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