Cardinal Burke celebrates magnificent Ordinary Form Mass

[Hokomai]

I’m fascinated that you don’t think this miracle deserves the very best to go along with it. I am stunned at the lack of preparation of some Masses. You’d think the miracle of the Mass would have people burning the midnight oil to prepare. Instead it’s often used as an excuse for poor preaching, poor coordination of the Mass, poor music, etc.

I can see that point, but if that were the case, would not people be describing not only the priests and bishops and their actions and attire, but of all the faithful in attendance? It is as if the Mass involves only those with formal roles.

 

[Laetus]

I can see that point, but if that were the case, would not people be describing not only the priests and bishops and their actions and attire, but of all the faithful in attendance? It is as if the Mass involves only those with formal roles.

It is the case.

There are some differences however. When one assumes a public role (either clerical or lay) in the liturgy they need to realize they also assume a huge responsibility. Pew-sitters do not assume that level of responsibility.

How exactly does a priest justify to himself the fact he took on the responsibility to celebrate the Mass, yet does so it in a less than reverent manner? “Less than reverent” based not on my opinions but the actual direction of the Church? That really has me puzzled unless I simply chalk it up to Original Sin?

I will give you a concrete example. We have a deacon at my parish. He is a poor reader. He has a voice that is terribly difficult to understand. He has trouble keeping-up with the flow of the Mass. He clearly impinges on the beauty (but not the validity) of the Mass. How in the world could someone with that skillset (or more correctly, that collection of gifts from God) place himself in the center of the Mass each Sunday? I just don’t get that…

 

[PJM]

Originally Posted by Hokomai
I am fascinated by the idea that God himself becoming physically present in the bread and wine is not enough for you. Why do you need more at a Mass?

THANKS, THAT IS ONE OF THE BEST QUESTIONS [IMO] EVER ASKED HERE ON THE FORUM Truly Profound!

So the reply too must be profound.

The answer lies is human understanding and expectations compared to Gods own.

**Isaiah 55:8-9 **“For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, says the LORD. For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways and my thoughts than your thoughts”

Many see the splendor of Vestments, Cathedrals and Art as an unnecessary extravagance. Even showing off. NOT SO. Look at God’s Precise COMMANDS to Moses in builing the ark and the Place of worship he COMMANDED in** Exodus chapter 25 to 30.**

Here’s a sampling:

Exod.25: 11 -39 " And you shall overlay it with pure gold, within and without shall you overlay it, and you shall make upon it a molding of gold round about. Then you shall make a mercy seat of pure gold; two cubits and a half shall be its length, and a cubit and a half its breadth. You shall overlay it with pure gold, and make a molding of gold around it. And you shall make its plates and dishes for incense, and its flagons and bowls with which to pour libations; of pure gold you shall make them. “And you shall make a lampstand of pure gold. The base and the shaft of the lampstand shall be made of hammered work; its cups, its capitals, and its flowers shall be of one piece with it; Their capitals and their branches shall be of one piece with it, the whole of it one piece of hammered work of pure gold. Its snuffers and their trays shall be of pure gold. Of a talent of pure gold shall it be made, with all these utensils.”

And as for vestments:

Exod.28: 1-12 “Then bring near to you Aaron your brother, and his sons with him, from among the people of Israel, to serve me as priests – Aaron and Aaron’s sons, Nadab and Abi’hu, Elea’zar and Ith’amar. And you shall make holy garments for Aaron your brother, for glory and for beauty. And you shall speak to all who have ability, whom I have endowed with an able mind, that they make Aaron’s garments to consecrate him for my priesthood. These are the garments which they shall make: a breastpiece, an ephod, a robe, a coat of checker work, a turban, and a girdle; they shall make holy garments for Aaron your brother and his sons to serve me as priests. ] And you shall set the two stones upon the shoulder-pieces of the ephod, as stones of remembrance for the sons of Israel; and Aaron shall bear their names before the LORD upon his two shoulders for remembrance.”

WHY?

Because dear friend God is PERFECT and DEMANDS the very Best we are able to return to Him in ALL that we do:thumbsup:

God’s Continued Blessings,
pat /PJM

 

[Tarpeian_Rock]

It is not about wanting more. But beauty extends beyond just aesthetics, beautiful art and music has a sacred place in Catholism. I think ultimately it points to God. Not just surface beauty, but beauty as a whole, in creation, and in becoming Holy as human beings.

I would agree with you that beauty does point toward and honor God; however, in my view, a clerical garment with a 15- or 20-foot train points to the wearer, not to God.

 

[YoungTradCath]

I would agree with you that beauty does point toward and honor God; however, in my view, a clerical garment with a 15- or 20-foot train points to the wearer, not to God.

The symbolism of a cappa magna is that the prelate is garbed in a royal garment. Then, when he goes before the altar, he essentially humiliates himself by removing it in the presence of God, then putting on the vestments of sacrifice.

The act of wearing a cappa magna then taking it off is an act of humility, like casting off the riches of the world.

 

[superamazingman]

I would agree with you that beauty does point toward and honor God; however, in my view, a clerical garment with a 15- or 20-foot train points to the wearer, not to God.

That’s the whole point, in fact!

It shows that the bishop does have legitimite authority and power, and before the Mass begins, he is stripped it, and stands before the altar as the alter christus, not as the powerful man he came in as.

 

[PJM]

=superamazingman;9363599]That’s the whole point, in fact!

It shows that the bishop does have legitimite authority and power, and before the Mass begins, he is stripped it, and stands before the altar as the alter christus, not as the powerful man he came in as.

Well Done my friend, THANKS,
pat /PJM

 

[triumphguy]

I would agree with you that beauty does point toward and honor God; however, in my view, a clerical garment with a 15- or 20-foot train points to the wearer, not to God.

The symbolism of a cappa magna is that the prelate is garbed in a royal garment. Then, when he goes before the altar, he essentially humiliates himself by removing it in the presence of God, then putting on the vestments of sacrifice.

The act of wearing a cappa magna then taking it off is an act of humility, like casting off the riches of the world.

That’s the whole point, in fact!

It shows that the bishop does have legitimite authority and power, and before the Mass begins, he is stripped it, and stands before the altar as the alter christus, not as the powerful man he came in as.

But when symbols lose their meaning in the eye of the observer then they become meaningless, and become “fripperies” or even point in the opposite direction than intended.

You have to understand the symbols to be moved by them. And not just understand intellectually, but more viscerally.

 

[YoungTradCath]

But when symbols lose their meaning in the eye of the observer then they become meaningless, and become “fripperies” or even point in the opposite direction than intended.

You have to understand the symbols to be moved by them. And not just understand intellectually, but more viscerally.

I’m pretty sure the average pewsitter doesn’t intellectually understand the meaning, nor has a visceral understanding, of:

-The alb
-The chasuble
-The dalmatic
-The cincture
-The maniple
-The amice
-The stole
-The humeral veil
-The episcopal ring
-The mitre
-The vimpa
-The pectoral cross
-The choir dress consisting of: choir cassock, rochet, mozzetta and/or mantelletta, biretta, fascia
-The surplice
-The cotta
-The saturno or cappello Romano
-The house cassock
-The pallium
-The zucchetto
-The crozier
-The faldstool
-The cathedra/throne
-The farraiolo
-The cord for the pectoral cross versus the chain
-The pontifical candle (seventh) used at some pontifical Masses
-The relics which may be present on various altars,

all of which are currently worn or used.

I’d wager that practically all of these to the average Catholic are meaningless fripperies. Yet we retain them. Therefore I don’t understand the hate of the cappa magna, especially when such is really a garment of humility.

 

[TrueLight]

I’d wager that practically all of these to the average Catholic are meaningless fripperies. Yet we retain them. Therefore I don’t understand the hate of the cappa magna, especially when such is really a garment of humility.

I am thankful that there are liturgical geeks who pay careful attention to all these “fripperies”.

I do not need to understand them in detail, but the end result is a beautiful, reverent mass.

 

[triumphguy]

I am thankful that there are liturgical geeks who pay careful attention to all these “fripperies”.

I do not need to understand them in detail, but the end result is a beautiful, reverent mass.

But what makes it more reverent?

I’ve been to mass in prison (many many times), on Indian reserves (reservations), in hospitals, cancer wards, in soccer stadiums, monasteries, friaries, convents, Lourdes, in Cathedrals and not a capa magna, glove, or pontifical slipper in sight and and they were no less reverent.

It’s the equating of form with reverence that I do not get!

:imsorry:

 

[superamazingman]

But when symbols lose their meaning in the eye of the observer then they become meaningless, and become “fripperies” or even point in the opposite direction than intended.

You have to understand the symbols to be moved by them. And not just understand intellectually, but more viscerally.

Well, people should ask then if they want to know, instead of instantly speaking against them.

 

[superamazingman]

I’m pretty sure the average pewsitter doesn’t intellectually understand the meaning, nor has a visceral understanding, of:

[List of various vestments]

all of which are currently worn or used.

I’d wager that practically all of these to the average Catholic are meaningless fripperies. Yet we retain them. Therefore I don’t understand the hate of the cappa magna, especially when such is really a garment of humility.

I’d also like to point out that all of the following are still in the current rubrics for the new Mass.

 

[superamazingman]

I am thankful that there are liturgical geeks who pay careful attention to all these “fripperies”.

I do not need to understand them in detail, but the end result is a beautiful, reverent mass.

Exactly!

 

[YoungTradCath]

But what makes it more reverent?

I’ve been to mass in prison (many many times), on Indian reserves (reservations), in hospitals, cancer wards, in soccer stadiums, monasteries, friaries, convents, Lourdes, in Cathedrals and not a capa magna, glove, or pontifical slipper in sight and and they were no less reverent.

It’s the equating of form with reverence that I do not get!

:imsorry:

No one expects that every Mass will be Solemn Pontifical Mass from the Throne preceded by Pontifical Terce and complete with ermine-hooded cappa magna and a Palestrina setting. Such things aren’t generally appropriate at prisons and cancer wards on account of resources and space, of course.

But if it is appropriate for the occasion, or if it is called for, then why not do it? We have to stop being afraid of our outward identity as Catholics. We have to stop scoffing when some silk is worn. Who cares who it offends, and does it matter if it makes someone uncomfortable, Catholic or not? Not a bit.

 

[triumphguy]

Well, people should ask then if they want to know, instead of instantly speaking against them.

Maybe the symbols just shut them up and make them feel “dumb”.

Not everyone is super and amazing. Many are just normal.

Many people don’t like foreign films, or movies with subtitles, no matter how good the movie is, and after one or two experiences will just not bother going back to that kind of movie.

It’s the same with liturgy.

 

[YoungTradCath]

Maybe the symbols just shut them up and make them feel “dumb”.

Not everyone is super and amazing. Many are just normal.

Many people don’t like foreign films, or movies with subtitles, no matter how good the movie is, and after one or two experiences will just not bother going back to that kind of movie.

It’s the same with liturgy.

That seems to be a symptom indicative of a personal problem with trying new things and being afraid of new experiences, in my opinion.

I have the perfect! article to read that explains this in culinary and musical terms:

dominicanablog.com/2012/06/01/de-gustibus/

 

[Hokomai]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hokomai
I am fascinated by the idea that God himself becoming physically present in the bread and wine is not enough for you. Why do you need more at a Mass?
THANKS, THAT IS ONE OF THE BEST QUESTIONS [IMO] EVER ASKED HERE ON THE FORUM Truly Profound!

Why, thank you, PJM, and for your profound reply!

 

[PJM]

=YoungTradCath;9364293]I’m pretty sure the average pewsitter doesn’t intellectually understand the meaning, nor has a visceral understanding, of:

-The alb
-The chasuble
-The dalmatic
-The cincture
-The maniple
-The amice
-The stole
-The humeral veil
-The episcopal ring
-The mitre
-The vimpa
-The pectoral cross
-The choir dress consisting of: choir cassock, rochet, mozzetta and/or mantelletta, biretta, fascia
-The surplice
-The cotta
-The saturno or cappello Romano
-The house cassock
-The pallium
-The zucchetto
-The crozier
-The faldstool
-The cathedra/throne
-The farraiolo
-The cord for the pectoral cross versus the chain
-The pontifical candle (seventh) used at some pontifical Masses
-The relics which may be present on various altars,

all of which are currently worn or used.

I’d wager that practically all of these to the average Catholic are meaningless fripperies. Yet we retain them. Therefore I don’t understand the hate of the cappa magna, especially when such is really a garment of humility.

I’m a wee bit more informed than the “average Catholic” and I don’t know ALL of these therms:blush:… LOL:shrug: Am I a DUMMY or what

God Bless,
pat /PJM

 

[wasserfall]

I’m a wee bit more informed than the “average Catholic” and I don’t know ALL of these therms:blush:… LOL:shrug: Am I a DUMMY or what

Me neither. But I think I know some. Let’s play a game…

-The cotta

Ok that’s like a short surplice.

-The saturno or cappello Romano

Awesome hat: looks like the planet saturn.

-The house cassock

Dunno how this differs from a “regular” cassock.

-The zucchetto

Hmmm… The skullcap?

-The faldstool

Folding bench for bishops who are not ordinaries to celebrate mass

-The farraiolo

a cool cape

-The cord for the pectoral cross versus the chain

I’m clueless here, but I think chains look better.