Cardinal Burke: Formal correction of Amoris Laetitia could happen in New Year

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Simply stated, when I have used the terms adultery and/or mortal sin, I mean precisely that, as the terms are commonly understood in standard English: “When I say adultery I am speaking of the mortal sin of adultery.” Again, I cannot make this any clearer.

What you append to this sentence–"[as opposed to the venial sin of adultery]"–is your own inference in your attempt to establish the concept of a venial sin of adultery that would not nullify sanctifying grace. Nice try though.

Your questions are propositions and assume there is the venial sin of adultery. As such, each question is an hypothesis, and an hypothesis cannot be proven true in its own closed system of reasoning. Nonetheless:
  1. No, of course not.
  2. In this regard? No, not if this means there is a venial sin of adultery. Simply stated, a sin is either adultery or it is not; adultery is a mortal sin. To be clear: "For a sin to be mortal, three conditions must together be met: ‘Mortal sin is sin whose object is grave matter and which is also committed with full knowledge and deliberate consent’ " (CCC 1857). And it is this that has been meant by “mortal sin”. If the above conditions of CCC 1857 are not met, then the sin is not a mortal sin.
  3. A classic example of a leading question. There is no “later” in (ii). However, in accordance with both the CCC 1857 and in the way I have used the terms mortal and adultery, there is no venial sin of adultery.
  4. Yes, or at least a distinction is possible as the difference between the Subjective and the Objective.
It is noted that the question of whether a person in the state of mortal sin should be permitted to receive communion is again unanswered.

I simply said I honestly did not recall the comment you mentioned. And no, I did not read every comment in that long thread but did look for any that were in reply to a comment I made. However, it is neither necessary nor fair to spin this into a personal fault. With all due respect, your tendency to dismiss those you cannot refute is noted.
Ah, now I think I see where you are coming from…

Why would you believe there can be no venial sin of adultery?
I find that an extraordinary statement.

On what basis do you define adultery as an analog to, say, “murder” which is where you seem to be coming from?

And all this begs the question which I suggest is the one you should be asking if this is how you understand the word “adultery” which is:
Do you consider all irregulars to be committing adultery as you define it above?

Likewise do you consider all those responsible in some way for death murderers?

BTW I rarely feel the need to refute anybody’s position. Normally I am simply attempting to demonstrate contrary views are acceptable.

However with your good self I do believe your position is one of those rare cases where it does not seem possible to square it with accepted Catholic teaching no matter how many somersaults I try :). It may well be I am unable to understand what you say. In which case I would amicably give up for my inability to understand.

I really do not know why so many people here go on about winning or refuting arguments :confused:. I gave up on shoot 'email dead Cowboys and Indians type converse a long time ago.
 
That would be a logical misinterpretation of reality if one considered all irregulars to be without sanctifying grace or love.

Fortunately respected leaders of the Church, like your Pope, see things otherwise and so I would prefer to go with their more divine logic.
Maybe it’s a glass half full sort of thing rather than half empty.
It is the very fact that they have received Grace that gives me certitude that they CAN abstain from sex. God Himself provides everyone the Grace that they need to live according to His Commandments. The Church, when it asks them to live as brother and sister does so BECAUSE they have received the Grace from God to do so.

We have seen that already in this thread, in citations from Trent and Vertitas Splendor. That IS the teaching of the Church, and thus of +Francis.

As far as love, yes, there is, by definition, physical affection. But actual Love brings one closer to God and His teachings, not away from them.

In the case that you mention, if the non-Catholic spouse had the virtue of Love, there would be a recognition that it is to the spiritual benefit of the Catholic spouse to abstain. It is the same reason that the Church rightly calls homosexuals to remain celibate in their relationships as well. Sexual relations outside of a valid marriage is simply not Love, it is not desiring the good of the other over one’s own self interest. And desires and actions that are against God and His commandments cannot be called Love, because God Himself IS LOVE, and what is against Him cannot Be Him.
 
It is the very fact that they have received Grace that gives me certitude that they CAN abstain from sex. God Himself provides everyone the Grace that they need to live according to His Commandments. The Church, when it asks them to live as brother and sister does so BECAUSE they have received the Grace from God to do so.

We have seen that already in this thread, in citations from Trent and Vertitas Splendor. That IS the teaching of the Church, and thus of +Francis.

As far as love, yes, there is, by definition, physical affection. But actual Love brings one closer to God and His teachings, not away from them.

In the case that you mention, if the non-Catholic spouse had the virtue of Love, there would be a recognition that it is to the spiritual benefit of the Catholic spouse to abstain. It is the same reason that the Church rightly calls homosexuals to remain celibate in their relationships as well. Sexual relations outside of a valid marriage is simply not Love, it is not desiring the good of the other over one’s own self interest. And desires and actions that are against God and His commandments cannot be called Love, because God Himself IS LOVE, and what is against Him cannot Be Him.
Well our views of Aquinas’s teaching on virtue differ too greatly to pragmaticly pursue the theme Brendon. Yours is a somewhat outdated Augustinian view much akin to the “splendid vices” of the pagans which merely mimic Christian virtue.
Pope Francis rejects that approach when he says sanctifying grace is present in the relationship of many irregulars. Where there is grace there is present virtue both cardinal and theological which looks to deny your above theologising I am afraid. The presence of grace means the non heroic faults, if any, are not mortal. True divine love can still be present in one unable or unwilling to abstain. I am with Francis on this point.
 
Ah, now I think I see where you are coming from…

Why would you believe there can be no venial sin of adultery?
I find that an extraordinary statement.

On what basis do you define adultery as an analog to, say, “murder” which is where you seem to be coming from?
"Grave matter is specified by the Ten Commandments, corresponding to the answer of Jesus to the young man: 'Do not kill. Do not commit adultery… (CCC 1858).

"Adultery refers to marital infidelity. When two partners, of whom at least one of them is married to another party, have sexual relations–even transitory ones–they commit adultery. Christ condemns even adultery of mere desire. The Sixth Commandment and the New Testament forbids adultery absolutely (CCC 2380). (emphasis added).

“One commits venial sin, when in a less serious matter, he does not observe the standard prescribed by the moral law, or when he disobeys the moral law in a grave matter without full knowledge or without full consent” (CCC 1862). (emphasis added)

As I have said a number of times, I am referring to adultery when committed with full knowledge and with full consent. This, then, is the grave matter of the mortal sin of adultery to which I have referred.

It seems to me that the confusion is perhaps that we are attempting two differing lines of inquiry. My question concerns whether or not those in the state of mortal sin, by reason of adultery, should be permitted to receive Holy Communion. As I understand your position, it is an attempt to establish that adultery is, in some instances, a venial sin. These are different arguments. While I would not call it “adultery”, I think I understand your approach. Once the terms are understood, I would not disagree that a person in the state of venial sin should (of course) be permitted to receive Holy Communion. As I see it, the difficulty is in elucidating how this state of venial sin might differ from marital infidelity and sexual relations that result in adultery, as described in CCC 2380, when “Christ condemns even adultery of mere desire”.
And all this begs the question which I suggest is the one you should be asking if this is how you understand the word “adultery” which is:
Do you consider all irregulars to be committing adultery as you define it above?
No, and I made this clear in my previous comment.
Likewise do you consider all those responsible in some way for death murderers?
Of course not.
BTW I rarely feel the need to refute anybody’s position. Normally I am simply attempting to demonstrate contrary views are acceptable.

However with your good self I do believe your position is one of those rare cases where it does not seem possible to square it with accepted Catholic teaching no matter how many somersaults I try :). It may well be I am unable to understand what you say. In which case I would amicably give up for my inability to understand.
It may indeed be the case that you have been unable to understand what I have said.
I really do not know why so many people here go on about winning or refuting arguments :confused:. I gave up on shoot 'email dead Cowboys and Indians type converse a long time ago.
Moi aussi, monsieur.
 
Well our views of Aquinas’s teaching on virtue differ too greatly to pragmaticly pursue the theme Brendon. Yours is a somewhat outdated Augustinian view much akin to the “splendid vices” of the pagans which merely mimic Christian virtue.
I disagree. Since God offers a Universal Call to Holiness, by definition, that means that all mankind is offered the Grace to live according to His calling. It is the very definition of prevenient Grace. And this Grace is continually offered, so that all might remain in His Grace.

Thus, it cannot be said, that there are those who are not capable of fulfilling the commands of God, especially the negative prohibitions.
Pope Francis rejects that approach when he says sanctifying grace is present in the relationship of many irregulars. Where there is grace there is present virtue both cardinal and theological which looks to deny your above theologising I am afraid.
How, exactly, would the presence of the Cardinal and Theological virtues render someone incapable of fulfilling the negative commandment of God. I am not denying that they have Grace. What I am denying is that those in irregular situations are not capable remaining sexually abstinent. .In fact, it is the very existence of the Grace of which you speak that would me that they CAN abstain.

The presence of grace means the non heroic faults, if any, are not mortal. True divine love can still be present in one unable or unwilling to abstain. I am with Francis on this point.
 
Only if someone believes it is.
Not quite. it is objective grave matter whether or not the person ‘believes’ it is. What comes into effect here is the ‘lack of full knowledge’. If a person’s knowledge does not allow him to understand that something is grave matter, he may not be guilty of mortal sin in that regard, but the adultery itself is objective grave matter.
 
Not quite. it is objective grave matter whether or not the person ‘believes’ it is. What comes into effect here is the ‘lack of full knowledge’. If a person’s knowledge does not allow him to understand that something is grave matter, he may not be guilty of mortal sin in that regard, but the adultery itself is objective grave matter.
In todays world it is a subjective grave matter.
 
As I have said a number of times, I am referring to adultery when committed with full knowledge and with full consent. This, then, is the grave matter of the mortal sin of adultery to which I have referred.
So you accept some irregulars may be committing only venial acts of adultery even if they are committing the sort of adultery defined by the 6th?
It seems to me that the confusion is perhaps that we are attempting two differing lines of inquiry. My question concerns whether or not those in the state of mortal sin, by reason of adultery, should be permitted to receive Holy Communion.
OK, at last I think I understand your question.
You are asking if those irregulars who commit personal mortal sins of adultery should be permitted to receive Communion?
While I would not call it “adultery”, I think I understand your approach.
I finally realised this. The problem is a Catholic moral theologian or Canon Lawyer I do not think would agree with you which is why you are confusing the heck out of me and possibly others :o.
But lets put this to one side for the moment.
Once the terms are understood, I would not disagree that a person in the state of venial sin should (of course) be permitted to receive Holy Communion.
Wohh there! This needs a lot of unpacking. I would not at face value agree so confidently with this! Again, lets put this to the side for the moment.
As I see it, the difficulty is in elucidating how this state of venial sin might differ from marital infidelity and sexual relations that result in adultery, as described in CCC 2380, when “Christ condemns even adultery of mere desire”.
This is another very fertile area for further discussion.
I would say this just confirms the obvious, that “adultery” in fact has a variety of meanings.
Nobody said the 6th Commandment exhausted all of them or was a complete definition of “adultery”. The question then is which definition of adultery barrs from Communion.
But lets put this aside for the moment too.

I wait for you to respond to my first two questions above.
Hopefully you don’t “forget” or decide not to read my response as happened previously :eek:.
 
Originally Posted by Blue Horizon View Post
Poor wording on your part I suggest…
Are you familiar with the three components that only together fully describe a personal sin?

So yes, the “matter” (the 1st component from which the sin gets its name) of the sin we call “adultery” is indeed “grave” (as opposed to “light”).

But the sin of adultery only becomes a mortal sin (as opposed to a venial sin) when the other two components “line up” to meet the definition of “mortal sin” also mentioned in the CCC.

For that to take place the 2nd component (intention) must be fully free and knowing.
There are many traditional reasons both theological and practical why this often does not happen in actual cases.

So we can accurately conclude that adultery always involves “grave matter” but the complete sin may be either mortal, venial, or merely a transgression (I did it while mostly asleep).
 
Poor wording on your part I suggest…
Are you familiar with the three components that only together fully describe a personal sin?

So yes, the “matter” (the 1st component from which the sin gets its name) of the sin we call “adultery” is indeed “grave” (as opposed to “light”).

But the sin of adultery only becomes a mortal sin (as opposed to a venial sin) when the other two components “line up” to meet the definition of “mortal sin” also mentioned in the CCC.

For that to take place the 2nd component (intention) must be fully free and knowing.
There are many traditional reasons both theological and practical why this often does not happen in actual cases.

So we can accurately conclude that adultery always involves “grave matter” but the complete sin may be either mortal, venial, or merely a transgression (I did it while mostly asleep).
You can say that about anything, e.g., I murdered my wife, which was grave matter, but I did not have sufficient reflection, so it was a venial sin. Or, I robbed a bank and killed the guard and twenty five innocent customers, but I did not sufficiently reflect on what I did, so it was only a venial sin? And is it then OK for that person to go to Holy Communion after he robbed the bank and shot 26 people to death?
 
You can say that about anything, e.g., I murdered my wife, which was grave matter, but I did not have sufficient reflection, so it was a venial sin. Or, I robbed a bank and killed the guard and twenty five innocent customers, but I did not sufficiently reflect on what I did, so it was only a venial sin? And is it then OK for that person to go to Holy Communion after he robbed the bank and shot 26 people to death?
Well, perhaps if they did it for the sake of their children they could still have Holy Communion. Remember, Holy Communion is medicine for the sick, not a reward for the righteous.

Anyone who says otherwise is being rigid.
 
Perhaps the error is in our nature to oversimplify. The situation was presented to you as one where a woman had to have sex to keep the one providing home and food. In real life, relationships are more complex. Such marriages, even if sought out of convenience develop well past that. Sexual relations are but one part of what the woman provides the man, and the man the woman. For one with little spiritual life, it might be a very large part. I once remember Peter Kreeft described sexual intimacy is the closest some people will come to a religious experience. So in a case where children are best served by the relationship with two parents, there is a moral good to keeping the family unit, and maintaining the health of all the relationships.

For the unequally yoked, where only one is attempting to reconcile with the Church, there is no easy answer.
Adultery is an intrinsically evil act, i.e, a sinful act (which involves grave matter) as are all extra-marital sexual relations and there is no legitimate reason whatsoever in regards to circumstances or intentions (for example, for the sake of children, family, society at large, or the preservation of one’s life) by which it can be considered a good act or a morally acceptable course of behavior and pleasing to God. “One may not do evil that good may result from it” (CCC#1756; Romans 3:8)
St John Paul II says in the encyclical Veritatis Splendor:
“But the negative moral precepts, those prohibiting certain concrete actions or kinds of behaviour as intrinsically evil, do not allow for any legitimate exception. They do not leave room, in any morally acceptable way, for the “creativity” of any contrary determination whatsoever. Once the moral species of an action prohibited by a universal rule is concretely recognized, the only morally good act is that of obeying the moral law and of refraining from the action which it forbids.” Adultery is precisely that which the sixth commandment of God forbids.

And sin, mortal or venial, does not unite but divides and it is not healthy for any relationship whether one’s relationship with God, one’s relationship with family and children or neighbor, the Church, the whole human community, the whole of creation. Consider the passage in the Bible about the city of Babel and its tower in Genesis 11: 1-9 (in the same vein, we could also consider the consequences on a universal level of the sin of our first parents).
Commenting on this St John Paul II says in the apostolic exhortation Reconciliation and Penance:
Intent on building what was to be at once a symbol and a source of unity, those people found themselves more scattered than before, divided in speech, divided among themselves, incapable of consensus and agreement…According to the Babel story, the result of sin is the shattering of the human family, already begun with the first sin and now reaching its most extreme form on the social level.

Continuing in the same apostolic exhortation, St John Paul II goes on to write of the twofold wound, i.e., personal and social, that every sin carries with it:
The mystery of sin is composed of this twofold wound which the sinner opens in himself and in his relationship with his neighbor. Therefore one can speak of personal and social sin: From one point of view, every sin is personal; from another point of view, every sin is social insofar as and because it also has social repercussions…
As a personal act, sin has its first and most important consequences in the sinner himself: that is, in his relationship with God, who is the very foundation of human life; and also in his spirit, weakening his will and clouding his intellect…
To speak of social sin means in the first place to recognize that, by virtue of human solidarity which is as mysterious and intangible as it is real and concrete, each individual’s sin in some way affects others. This is the other aspect of that solidarity which on the religious level is developed in the profound and magnificent mystery of the communion of saints, thanks to which it has been possible to say that “every soul that rises above itself, raises up the world.” To this law of ascent there unfortunately corresponds the law of descent. Consequently one can speak of a communion of sin, whereby a soul that lowers itself through sin drags down with itself the church and, in some way, the whole world. In other words, there is no sin, not even the most intimate and secret one, the most strictly individual one, that exclusively concerns the person committing it. With greater or lesser violence, with greater or lesser harm, every sin has repercussions on the entire ecclesial body and the whole human family.

And in the CCC#953 concerning the Communion of Saints, we read:
Communion in charity. In the sanctorum communio, “None of us lives to himself, and none of us dies to himself.” “If one member suffers, all suffer together; if one member is honored, all rejoice together. Now you are the body of Christ and individually members of it.” “Charity does not insist on its own way.” In this solidarity with all men, living or dead, which is founded on the communion of saints, the least of our acts done in charity redounds to the profit of all. Every sin harms this communion.
 
So you accept some irregulars may be committing only venial acts of adultery even if they are committing the sort of adultery defined by the 6th?
I accept that some number of “irregulars” are not committing the mortal sin of adultery, but I do not agree that adultery as defined by the 6th Commandment (“You shall not commit adultery”) can be a venial sin. The terms grave, grievous and serious sin are synonymous with mortal sin.
OK, at last I think I understand your question.
You are asking if those irregulars who commit personal mortal sins of adultery should be permitted to receive Communion?
Yes.
 
Well, perhaps if they did it for the sake of their children they could still have Holy Communion. Remember, Holy Communion is medicine for the sick, not a reward for the righteous.

Anyone who says otherwise is being rigid.
I see. This seems to be a change from previous teachings, when it was announced from the pulpit that only those who were properly prepared should receive Holy Communion. So you say that if a man robs a bank and kills the security guard and then shoots 25 innocent people, but he did not have sufficient reflection, he should be able to receive Holy Communion without first going to confession, since Holy Communion is medicine for the sick, not a reward for the righteous?
 
Well, perhaps if they did it for the sake of their children they could still have Holy Communion. Remember, Holy Communion is medicine for the sick, not a reward for the righteous.

Anyone who says otherwise is being rigid.
Correct, but medicine wrongly taken does not bring about healing, but rather causes moredamage. That is why the Church has a prohibition on those in grave sinfrom partaking in Holy Communion.

It is also a sign of unity of Faith, and thus why there is a prohibition regarding Holy Communion and those that actively oppose the teachings of the Church, regardless of any personal Grace that they may possess.
 
That is why the Church has a prohibition on those in grave sin*from partaking in Holy Communion.
Do you ever know with absolute certainty that you had sufficient reflection? How often do people commit sins without having sufficient reflection of the consequences? How often do people realize and sufficiently reflect that they will suffer horrifically and burn for all eternity in hell if they use artificial birth control?
Is the notion of sufficient reflection a purely subjective one?
 
You can say that about anything, e.g., I murdered my wife, which was grave matter, but I did not have sufficient reflection, so it was a venial sin. Or, I robbed a bank and killed the guard and twenty five innocent customers, but I did not sufficiently reflect on what I did, so it was only a venial sin? And is it then OK for that person to go to Holy Communion after he robbed the bank and shot 26 people to death?
I have given you standard Catholic moral theology understanding and teaching Tombstone.
Whether you can accept it is up to you.
 
In todays world it is a subjective grave matter.
Like fornication, cohabitation, homosexual activity, drug use, drunk driving, bodily mutilation, abortion, euthanasia, and many other things. Subjectivity now rules, and we are provided ample opportunity to excuse ourselves of any number of grave actions. Conscience can be quite pliable.
 
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