Cardinal critiques Amazon synod working doc as ‘heretical…apostasy’, urges

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Phillip_Rolfes said:
So again, we’re left wanting for direct quotes from the document itself that are 1. in explicit contradiction to specific Church dogma, and 2. demonstrate that the authors themselves (whoever they are) are persistent in contradicting those specific Church dogmas.
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I think this is the document being referenced:

www.vaticannews.va

Synod for the Amazon: ‘Instrumentum Laboris’ released - Vatican News

The ‘Instrumentum Laboris’ (the Working Document) of the upcoming Special Assembly of the Synod of Bishops for the Pan-Amazonian Region is released in ...
www.vaticannews.va www.vaticannews.va

I have not read it yet. I plan to do so while I cook dinner tonight. It may help with the discussion here if everyone can read it themselves instead of relying on an article about it. I apologize ahead of time if it isn’t the correct document. Like i said, i have not actually read it yet myself.
 
Thank you. That is the correct document, yes. The issue is that accusations of “heresy” and “apostasy” have been thrown out without any reference to explicit quotes from the document. I could certainly read the document and guess at what passages Cardinal Brandmuller is referring to, but when an accusation of “heresy” or “apostasy” has been thrown out we shouldn’t have to guess at the specifics. At least with the Amoris Laetitia debates critics pointed to specific problematic passages and said, in effect, “See! This is what I’m referring to!” But I’ve yet to see any similar clarity when it comes to criticizing this document (or accusing it/its authors of “heresy” and “apostasy”).
 
My apologies. This is the actual IL:


It’s rather lengthy! As a PDF document it weighs in at 58 pages! I wonder if the 10 days since its publication is really enough time to take in what’s being proposed and draw the conclusions under discussion in this thread. I would think one month would be the minimum time required. But then again, I’m slow and somewhat dense. 😉
 
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Thanks! I will see if I can read it later tonight. That’s too long for dinner reading!
 
Regardless of what is in it, it looks as if it will be another ambiguous document that will indeed need papal clarification at a later date. I have no inside info or any knowledge whatsoever about it, but it would seem that is the pattern the Church is in right now. This Cardinal is sounding alarm bells and if we go by the past… we might want to listen.
 
Sadly, you could very well be correct. I pray such is not the case. But I’m not going to hold my breath. I got tired of doing that waiting for clarification on AL…
 
KMG said:
The cardinal’s letter speaks for itself.

Also, the pope didn’t write this travesty of a document, so your insistence on bringing the pope into this is irrelevant.
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Since you have read the whole document could you give a brief idea of the heretical points.
 
Some more commentary on the working document that was released today:

www.ncregister.com

Amazon Synod Mission Abandoned?

COMMENTARY: The footnotes to the synod’s working document indicate that it is at odds with how the Church — including Pope Francis — has traditionally taught about the mission.
www.ncregister.com www.ncregister.com
 
The first part of EWTN’s “World Over” for 6-20-19 has a discussion of the working document for the Amazon Synod. It can be accessed either on EWTN or on YouTube here.
 
The relationship between the Bishop of Rome and his brother bishops is much more complex and nuanced than supervisor / employee.
 
I realize that, which makes it even more imperative for the Cardinals/Bishop’s not give the appearance of undermining the Holy Father.
 
I have a request. Early in his pontificate Pope Francis addressed the idea that he was just a bishop among bishops. Indicating a less papal view of the papacy. But I somehow cannot find what he said. Does anyone know what he said about being a “brother bishop”
 
This is all I can find about “brother bishops”.

www.al.com

Pope Francis 'called us his brother bishops,' says Protestant pastor from Mobile, who lunched, swapped caps with the pontiff

Roberts also exchanged a skull cap called a zucchetto with the pontiff.
www.al.com www.al.com

Bolding mine:

“He looks like one of the fellas. He’s so down to earth,” said Roberts, describing a photo he took with the pope during the visit. Roberts is founding pastor of Word of Life Community Church, an interdenominational congregation of 1,500 with locations in Chickasaw and Whistler. A graduate of McGill-Toolen Catholic School, he has been a bishop with the CEEC network since 2007.

Roberts said one of the bishops asked the pontiff if he would bless them to go and proclaim the miracle of unity. “He said, 'I can’t really bless you, because we’re brother bishops.’ He actually called us his brother bishops,” he said.

Roberts said the group met with Pope Francis for more than an hour and shared lunch in his private dining room at Casa Santa Marta, his Vatican residence. The main topics at the meeting, which occurred during the recent Synod, were family and Christian unity.“
 
It is very difficult to “undermine” someone who consistently refuses to clarify ambiguous statements.
 
You have yet to give us one example of heresy, apostasy or even an ambiguous statement in this document.
If you are not willing to do so, I see this whole thread as nothing more than your attempt to paint Pope Francis in the least unflattering light, yet again.
 
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  1. I am not the research assistant of those who demand citations/“proof” of this or that point.
  2. The cardinal’s letter speaks for itself.
 
You posted an article that makes many claims but cites no actual proof of those accusations.
You have been asked for said citations by more than one person, yet refuse to engage in any discussion other than to say you ageee with an ambiguous document accusing the Pope of being a heretic, an apostate, and a Nazi. This thread is is just another example your disdain for Pope Francis.
 
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CilladeRoma said:
You posted an article that makes many claims but cites no actual proof of those accusations.
You have been asked for said citations by more this one person, yet refuse to engage in any discussion other than to say you ageee with an ambiguous document accusing the Pope of being a heretic, an apostate, and a Nazi. This thread is ia,just another example your disdain for Pope Francis.
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There is a reason for that. This anti-Francis movement that is unfortunately led by some senior clerics is not actually an anti-Francis movement. It is an internal Church power play that is attempting to shift control of the Church to a small movement that wants to take the Church back, not to the beginning of Francis’ pontificate in 2013, but back to some mythical idyllic past in the undefined “good old days.”

You will notice that most of the things they complain of are not unique to this papacy. They are fighting against a broad swath of the Church’s teaching, again, based on their assertion that things were once not only different, but better. But they can’t make that explicit argument, as very, very few Catholics would agree with it. So they make vague accusations in general, and pick at specific statements from time to time, to try to undermine the current leadership of the Church. This is not new to this Papacy, we saw plenty of it during at least the last two papacies, but they are becoming more vocal and learning to use the internet as a bullhorn to amplify their few voices.
 
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