K
KMG
Guest
This has got to be a new low for CAF.
Cardinal Cupich launches Amoris Laetitia seminars for US bishops
- Status
P
Phillip_Rolfes
Guest
@Luk6_37
I find your interpretation of the Woman at the Well to be extremely fascinating and will have to ponder it more. Thank you for sharing.
I find your interpretation of the Woman at the Well to be extremely fascinating and will have to ponder it more. Thank you for sharing.
P
Phillip_Rolfes
Guest
Pope Francis has changed nothing of the perennial teaching of the Church. AL makes no mention of opening Communion to adulterers. What he, like Pope St. John Paul II does do is recognize that there are folks living in irregular situations that are contrary to the Gospel ideal of marriage. His first concern, in the opening chapters of the document, was to encourage the Church, and particularly pastors, to discern ways to lead folks in these situations to embrace the Gospel ideal of marriage.
What he then goes on to do, again just as Pope St. John Paul II did in Familiaris Consortio, is recognize that some who are living in the particular irregular situation of being divorced and civilly remarried are not currently in a place to change that situation because of the presence of children. Pope Francis simply asks how best we can incorporate these, our brothers and sisters, into the life of the Church. He actually gives a number of wonderful suggestions such as allowing them to be lectors, or catechists, or other such roles within the parish. But again, even situations like this must involve the discerning accompaniment of the parish priest.
What he then goes on to do, again just as Pope St. John Paul II did in Familiaris Consortio, is recognize that some who are living in the particular irregular situation of being divorced and civilly remarried are not currently in a place to change that situation because of the presence of children. Pope Francis simply asks how best we can incorporate these, our brothers and sisters, into the life of the Church. He actually gives a number of wonderful suggestions such as allowing them to be lectors, or catechists, or other such roles within the parish. But again, even situations like this must involve the discerning accompaniment of the parish priest.
K
KMG
Guest
That’s right, he hasn’t changed perennial Church teaching because he can’t.
L
Luke6_37
Guest
Then you will have to accept that this is no change in doctrine and find peace with what Pope Francis is teaching in paragraph 305…
“Because of forms of conditioning and mitigating factors, it is possible that in an objective situation of sin – which may not be subjectively culpable, or fully such – a person can be living in God’s grace, can love and can also grow in the life of grace and charity, while receiving the Church’s help to this end. 351.”
351 In certain cases, this can include the help of the sacraments. Hence, “I want to remind priests that the confessional must not be a torture chamber, but rather an encounter with the Lord’s mercy” (Apostolic Exhortation Evangelii Gaudium [24 November 2013], 44: AAS 105 [2013], 1038). I would also point out that the Eucharist “is not a prize for the perfect, but a powerful medicine and nourishment for the weak” (ibid., 47: 1039)
Last edited:
K
KMG
Guest
Let me be crystal clear. No adulterer may ever receive Communion.
J
JimG
Guest
Yes, and many bishops have interpreted AL in accord with the perennial Catholic teaching, so there is no conflict, for example Archbishop Chaput of Philadelphia. Other bishops have interpreted in a way that is quite at variance with the Church’s constant teaching, for example, the bishops of Malta. This is a problem.
See, for example, here, and here.
Mark121359
Well-known member
You seem to be saying that you believe that everything that the pope says or does is infallible!
Uh-huh…sort of like what happened to Cardinal Burke?
Last edited:
B
billy15
Guest
No, it is a stretch. Our Lord is not talking about the Eucharist here. I’ll stick with the interpretation of the Church Fathers on this passage… and Pope Francis’:
Also, keep in mind that venial sin makes us very weak. But we are still alive. Mortal sin kills the soul. Someone who is dead cannot receive nourishment until they are restored to life. That is, for the baptized, restored to life in the Sacrament of Reconciliation.
Are we really loving God by receiving the Blessed Sacrament unworthily, something most offensive to Him? Should we not take the divinely inspired First Letter of St. Paul to the Corinthians seriously when he says:
This is serious stuff. You talk about “no strings attached”. Let’s not pit the words of our Lord against that of St. Paul’s Letter or what the Church teaches. The latter two sources find their origin in the same divine wellspring, Christ, meaning they cannot contradict each other. Do you mean that one who is conscious of grave sin may come forward to receive the Eucharist without any repercussions, as St. Paul speaks of? To substitute another situation other than adultery, would you say that the unrepentant mafia don, who has murdered and ordered the murder of several people, should go forward to receive the Eucharist, as there are no “strings attached”?
Also, keep in mind that venial sin makes us very weak. But we are still alive. Mortal sin kills the soul. Someone who is dead cannot receive nourishment until they are restored to life. That is, for the baptized, restored to life in the Sacrament of Reconciliation.
Last edited:
P
pnewton
Guest
I think this is the point we will see explored more fully, as it is actual mortal sin that kills, not object sin that one may or may not be aware of.
K
KMG
Guest
Confess and be absolved, and THEN you may receive Communion. Nobody said it is unpardonable. But you CANNOT receive Communion as an adulterer.
L
Luke6_37
Guest
Private dissent is fine, but publically a member of the clergy does not speak out against the Pope without consequences. Cardinal Burke being a good example. If you empower Cardinals to go off the range, you end up with a situation like the Great Western Schism.Luke6_37:
You seem to be saying that you believe that everything that the pope says or does is infallible!
Uh-huh…sort of like what happened to Cardinal Burke?
If you do not believe the Pope’s agenda as a whole is infallibly guided by the Holy Spirit who elected him, then you are no longer Catholic, but Protestant.
Everyone knows that Spadaro is the Pope’s spokesman when it comes to pushing the Pope’s agenda. So yeah, you can’t just dismiss him.
D
deacon3b
Guest
Then you will have to find peace that AL 351 must be read in light of Familiaris Consortio otherwise you will have to admit that one the two popes have taught errorr which is not possible…even Pope Francis said AL is read in light of FC…it even quotes it. FC is quite clear no ambiguity. Its an objective state NOT subjective.
Familiaris Consortio
84…However, the Church reaffirms her practice, which is based upon Sacred Scripture, of not admitting to Eucharistic Communion divorced persons who have remarried. They are unable to be admitted thereto from the fact that their state and condition of life objectively contradict that union of love between Christ and the Church which is signified and effected by the Eucharist. Besides this, there is another special pastoral reason: if these people were admitted to the Eucharist, the faithful would be led into error and confusion regarding the Church’s teaching about the indissolubility of marriage.
Familiaris Consortio
84…However, the Church reaffirms her practice, which is based upon Sacred Scripture, of not admitting to Eucharistic Communion divorced persons who have remarried. They are unable to be admitted thereto from the fact that their state and condition of life objectively contradict that union of love between Christ and the Church which is signified and effected by the Eucharist. Besides this, there is another special pastoral reason: if these people were admitted to the Eucharist, the faithful would be led into error and confusion regarding the Church’s teaching about the indissolubility of marriage.
K
KMG
Guest
“The pope’a agenda as a whole” is most certainly NOT automatically guided by the Holy Ghost under infallibility.
If that were true, the entire history of the Renaissance would need to be rewritten.
If that were true, the entire history of the Renaissance would need to be rewritten.
Last edited:
D
deacon3b
Guest
The Holy Spirit does not elect popes. You have publicly taught an error here.
K
KMG
Guest
Definitely a good moment to remind people that the Holy Spirit does not, indeed, elect popes.
P
pnewton
Guest
I understand that. Yet I see where your previous statement demonstrates why the laity should understand their limitations in the area of moral theology, where precision is everything.
K
KMG
Guest
I am being precise. Adulterers may not receive Communion.
P
pnewton
Guest
Absolutely. However, St. John Paul reaffirmed the practice, not the doctrine, which is based in Scripture.
Then you are using the word “Adulterer” in a very specific way without defining the uniqueness of the term in your usage, namely, a person who has committed adultery and has not been to confession and received absolution.
I would submit that even defining a person as a noun based on a single action is rather imprecise, except I know St. Paul did the same thing. On the other hand, he wrote more that ten word about a subject.
Last edited:
- Status