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oppositeman13
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some think that it is not preaching a different gospel but “discerning” a “deeper meaning” that can be applied in today’s world. I just see this as “word gymnastics” - twisting, turning, and flipping words.
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Pug
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Maybe all the talk of discerning is triggered by the fact that the two hypothetical people in question are not married, so they need to discern if they are in fact called to marriage. Traditionally, the word “discernment” is applied to that type of thing. And then, if they are so called, what’s the next step to get there, etc?
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Saxum
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But the real issue involves Catholics validly married in Church who then civilly divorce and remarry. This means that they’re in a permanent state of adultery unless they abstain from sexual relations with their new ‘spouses.’ AL seems to suggest that these people can continue having sex with each other and receive Holy Communion.
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Pug
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You’re right! AL is talking about people who couldn’t get an annulment, is that right? Or is that only one of the situations?
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oppositeman13
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I think what this discernment is about is figuring out if God is calling you, despite your situation, back to Holy Communion - insinuating that one size does not fit all. One problem with this is scripture does not give any “wiggle room” on this issue - but some seems to be wanting to create it.
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Pug
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Or possibly someone who knows their marriage is invalid, but lives somewhere where an annulment just isn’t going to happen?
Cardinal Cupich goes on to talk about the difference between
I have a desire to interpret cardinals and the like in the way that makes whatever they said orthodox, if you know what I mean. So I’m trying.
Cardinal Cupich goes on to talk about the difference between
Perhaps the “discernment” is of personal culpability, whether or not one is subjectively guilty of a mortal sin and hence have lost sanctifying grace. I don’t know if discernment is normally applied to figuring out if you met or are meeting the criteria for grave sin.
I have a desire to interpret cardinals and the like in the way that makes whatever they said orthodox, if you know what I mean. So I’m trying.
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Saxum
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I’m also trying to do the same thing but I’m finding it impossible to do. That’s why I really want Pope Francis to answer the dubia and resolve these issues. It’s extremely important because AL undermines the entire Catholic moral doctrine; and that’s why the dubia reference Veritatis Splendor.
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Pug
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I know you did not say otherwise, so this is not directed to you, just I want to shout out in thankfulness
God IS calling Catholics to communion.
but sometimes a Catholic needs to do something first. It is reasonable to discern what to do first. Like, talk to the priest in his office first, then go make a list for confession, then etc… So discernment applies there.
The wiggle room is perhaps subjective culpability, from that other Cupich quote I gave above. But scripture in 1 Cor 11 doesn’t seem to have culpability in mind, not in the main, anyway. But that may be one of those officially interpreted texts, and I don’t know what that might be.
God IS calling Catholics to communion. but sometimes a Catholic needs to do something first. It is reasonable to discern what to do first. Like, talk to the priest in his office first, then go make a list for confession, then etc… So discernment applies there.
The wiggle room is perhaps subjective culpability, from that other Cupich quote I gave above. But scripture in 1 Cor 11 doesn’t seem to have culpability in mind, not in the main, anyway. But that may be one of those officially interpreted texts, and I don’t know what that might be.
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Pug
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I empathize with your choice of the word “impossible”. I would be interested in a clarification also, such as an answer to the dubia, especially number four about “defensible as a choice” or five about “authorized to legitimate exceptions”.
I would also appreciate from the Church an explanation of canon law and this AL situation. I keep feeling like maybe they should change the law to match.
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Can. 915 Those who have been excommunicated or interdicted after the imposition or declaration of the penalty and others obstinately persevering in manifest grave sin are not to be admitted to holy communion.
I would also appreciate from the Church an explanation of canon law and this AL situation. I keep feeling like maybe they should change the law to match.
CIC 915
Can. 915 Those who have been excommunicated or interdicted after the imposition or declaration of the penalty and others obstinately persevering in manifest grave sin are not to be admitted to holy communion.
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graciew
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I ve been married for 30 years to the same man.
This isn t even a topic of conversation around nor the least interest in other people 's bedrooms.
When we have to row it,we row it,when we have had to pull the cart even alone at times ,we pulled.
There isn t the least interest in twisting that when we and our friends got married ,we understood what we were saying.
So if you want more square than ravioli,ask us. Annulment is in the stratosphere for consideration. We have or families worth every single effort.with lights abd shadows
If there is one thing to share,do not wait untill the water reaches your neck to ask a priest to help your marriage.
I do not have the slightest curiosity,nor is it related in any say to me,to put any Cardinal against the wall because by the time I get somewhere,they have come and gone a hundred times.
This is a microworld in here,and it can truly get suffocating. People are not like this in every day life. Not even close…
This isn t even a topic of conversation around nor the least interest in other people 's bedrooms.
When we have to row it,we row it,when we have had to pull the cart even alone at times ,we pulled.
There isn t the least interest in twisting that when we and our friends got married ,we understood what we were saying.
So if you want more square than ravioli,ask us. Annulment is in the stratosphere for consideration. We have or families worth every single effort.with lights abd shadows
If there is one thing to share,do not wait untill the water reaches your neck to ask a priest to help your marriage.
I do not have the slightest curiosity,nor is it related in any say to me,to put any Cardinal against the wall because by the time I get somewhere,they have come and gone a hundred times.
This is a microworld in here,and it can truly get suffocating. People are not like this in every day life. Not even close…
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mythbuster1
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The Apostles affirmed it was a hard teaching, but Jesus affirmed the only two sexual lifestyles acceptable to God: marriage between one man and one woman til death do you part, or a life of celibacy and continence.
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oppositeman13
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In this little discussion it is obvious there are people on either side of the fence - this is the tragedy of what has happened to our church. Both sides can’t be right so one side is in error. Both sides believe they are right and let us hope and pray that those in error see it before it impacts their salvation. This is happening throughout Catholicism and is perhaps the most profound crisis our church has ever experienced. Hundreds of millions of souls could be lost because they have rejected the proper teaching and believe in something that is rejected by God. What do you or any Catholic believe about communion for same sex couples or cohabiting couples? More and more Catholics believe that abortion is ok and contraception is ok. A immense tragedy indeed!
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pnewton
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You made a rather unwise assumption about me. I am not fly-by-night proof-texter. I did not go into more because I simply do not want to assume more about what Cardinal Cupich said than I know. The worse position though is the one that are assuming the worst about a Cardinal in order to criticize him based on an article by a decidedly anti-Catholic web site.
Pope Francis, you know, the guy God chose to lead the Church at this time, stated, “If the Christian is a restorationist, a legalist, if he wants everything clear and safe, then he will find nothing. Tradition and memory of the past must help us to have the courage to open up new areas to God.” He also said that legalism makes one stupid. This in no one denies Catholic teaching on sin in the least, nor is tradition undermined, except perhaps the tradition of respecting the Holy Father and the bishops under him, which seems to be the one tradition we keep forgetting here.
By the way, you are right about the eternal nature of the doctrine in Familiaris Consortio. However, St. John Paul did not call refraining from communion for the remarried a doctrine, but a “long-standing practice.” There does not seem to be agreement from all Cardinals that this is a doctrine.
Pope Francis, you know, the guy God chose to lead the Church at this time, stated, “If the Christian is a restorationist, a legalist, if he wants everything clear and safe, then he will find nothing. Tradition and memory of the past must help us to have the courage to open up new areas to God.” He also said that legalism makes one stupid. This in no one denies Catholic teaching on sin in the least, nor is tradition undermined, except perhaps the tradition of respecting the Holy Father and the bishops under him, which seems to be the one tradition we keep forgetting here.
By the way, you are right about the eternal nature of the doctrine in Familiaris Consortio. However, St. John Paul did not call refraining from communion for the remarried a doctrine, but a “long-standing practice.” There does not seem to be agreement from all Cardinals that this is a doctrine.
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pnewton
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Canon Law is an important tool in discernment. It is not doctrine, but it is based on doctrine. I think we all need to understand what Cardinal Burke points out about discernment.
“Discernment does not decide what is right or wrong but leads the person to inform himself as fully as possible,” continued Cardinal Burke, “so that he can make a right judgment in a particular matter, that is, so that he can act in accord with the truth which God has written upon his heart or conscience.”
Listen, I know there is some disagreement in the Church right now, but I do not think there is as much as most people think there is. Surely articles like this LSN link magnifies the issue rather than clarifies.
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oppositeman13
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Lifesite news is a reputable source for orthodox Catholic news - no one disputes that. What I know for sure is that since francis’ papacy began there has been nothing but division, confusion, and uneasiness - none of which comes from the Holy Spirit. There is something terribly wrong with our church and they had better figure it out before a formal schism takes place.
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oppositeman13
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how does lifesitenews magnify the issue? What Cardinal Burke says is in quotes - blame him for magnifying the issue not the reporter. What Cardinal Cupich says is in quotes with additional links. Blame the Cardinals for not clarifying the issues not the newspaper.
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pnewton
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You have got to be kidding. Do a poll here. There are too many of us that remember some of their stunts. They are not life (what does this have to do with life?) They are not news (as biased as they come, and in my opinion, anti-Catholic). They are a website, so a third of their name is accurate.
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oppositeman13
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this certainly has to do with not only your spiritual life but your salvation. There are plenty of other news stories about the pro life movement. These are news stories carried by other new agencies - let’s be honest here ok - you don’t care for or believe in their orthodox point of view. That’s fine - so do and some don’t. Please just speak plainly without taking cheap pot shots.
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pnewton
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I thought my post was plain, as was my opinion of them. If your opinion is that they are orthodox and my opinion is cheap, then that is yours. But orthodox? They aren’t a Catholic group, you know. Or do you think the are Orthodox Christians?
For me, I will define it as being in union with the Pope, not this Cardinal, or that one, much less LSN. Now that is the Protestant way, picking the guy that you think is right and siding with him. For me, where the Bishop of Rome is, there is the Catholic Church. That is a matter of salvation.
Speaking of salvation, I would like to point out that one can always decline to discuss their situation with a priest when they are in an irregular situation, choose to live as brother and sister, or not go to communion. One may always choose that path, if they believe that is what is needed for salvation. This whole controversy is mostly non-authoritative lay people having a “strong opinion” about what other non-authoritative lay people should do. For example, if you believe that it is doctrine that leaves no room for any other path, then simply follow that path. Problem solved. It is when Christians try to “discern” what other Christians should do that legalism problematic.
For me, I will define it as being in union with the Pope, not this Cardinal, or that one, much less LSN. Now that is the Protestant way, picking the guy that you think is right and siding with him. For me, where the Bishop of Rome is, there is the Catholic Church. That is a matter of salvation.
Speaking of salvation, I would like to point out that one can always decline to discuss their situation with a priest when they are in an irregular situation, choose to live as brother and sister, or not go to communion. One may always choose that path, if they believe that is what is needed for salvation. This whole controversy is mostly non-authoritative lay people having a “strong opinion” about what other non-authoritative lay people should do. For example, if you believe that it is doctrine that leaves no room for any other path, then simply follow that path. Problem solved. It is when Christians try to “discern” what other Christians should do that legalism problematic.
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