Cardinal Dolan finds common ground with Obama on guns

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jay29 said:
We have a people problem. What don’t you get? :eek:

The firearm deaths in this country is very tiny compared to how many are in circulation. It’s the tiny amount of guns used by the tiny amount of criminals that the democrats are using to control the entire mass of people and eviscerate the 2nd amendment hated so much by the left in this country way before any mass shooting occured. It’s very dishonest at best.

I’m 100% correct.
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I get it, and I get that people with problems go for guns to inflict damage, specific guns to inflict the maximum damage.

No one is trying to eradicate ALL guns. Using the same line of thought, those guns that are in the midst of mass shootings are an extremely small amount, leaving us with many, many other guns for whatever purposes one claims a need for. No one ‘hates’ an amendment; however, that amendment is from ‘Caesar’, in that it is given by the secular government. We are held to a higher authority. We give to Caesar that which is Caesar’s, and we give to God that which is God’s. God’s are the innocent victims, from the accessibility of tools of harm.

The Holy See, Cardinals, and bishops have given guidance. If that guidance is wrong, where is the correct support, as you see it?
 
scipio337 said:
Only if one is making a moral equivalence of peaceful gun ownership = an act of war.
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Of course, because then that would further your opinion of those of us who are trying to give some credence to what the clergy tells us.

Actually, gun control and war are both areas tht we could argue are areas of “prudential judgement”; however, if the Church has a say in what might constitute a just war, it also has a say in what it might consider appropriate with respect to guns.

I actually think many of you are just being obtuse at this point. And that’s coming from someone who isn’t pro-guns or anti-guns.
 
Prodigal_Son1 said:
I get it, and I get that people with problems go for guns to inflict damage, specific guns to inflict the maximum damage.

No one is trying to eradicate ALL guns. Using the same line of thought, those guns that are in the midst of mass shootings are an extremely small amount, leaving us with many, many other guns for whatever purposes one claims a need for. No one ‘hates’ an amendment; however, that amendment is from ‘Caesar’, in that it is given by the secular government…
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Wrong. A government PROTECTS rights, especially those unalienable ones. As part of the Bill of Rights, the 2nd Amendment is an unalienable right, that Caesar does not grant, and therefore can not take away.

Caesar giveth, Caesar taketh away. Blessed be the name of Caesar.
 
Lucky7 said:
Of course, because then that would further your opinion of those of us who are trying to give some credence to what the clergy tells us.
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I’m not the one using the analogy
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Lucky7:
Actually, gun control and war are both areas tht we could argue are areas of “prudential judgement”; however, if the Church has a say in what might constitute a just war, it also has a say in what it might consider appropriate with respect to guns.
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I believe the just war concept might be used in respect to the USE of guns, not their ownership, ie, does x use of a weapons constitute just use/taking of a life?
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Lucky7:
I actually think many of you are just being obtuse at this point. And that’s coming from someone who isn’t pro-guns or anti-guns.
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Sorry, that’s not my intent. I’m approaching this as one who is pro legal and responsible gun ownership, but I believe my faith supports that position.
 
scipio337 said:
Wrong. A government PROTECTS rights, especially those unalienable ones. As part of the Bill of Rights, the 2nd Amendment is an unalienable right, that Caesar does not grant, and therefore can not take away.

Caesar giveth, Caesar taketh away. Blessed be the name of Caesar.
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Caesar, the government, formed the constitution, including the 2nd amendment. It did not come from God.

Was Christ saying, ‘blessed be the name of Caesar’ when He gave his instruction?
 
Prodigal_Son1 said:
Caesar, the government, formed the constitution, including the 2nd amendment. It did not come from God.

Was Christ saying, ‘blessed be the name of Caesar’ when He gave his instruction?
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No, self defense is a "natural right’, or human right, granted by a Creator.

It’s something a government is instituted to protect, not grant. See the US Declaration of Independence, the 1689 English Declaration of Rights, etc.

I was paraphrasing Job, as Caesar has become the new God of many.
 
scipio337 said:
No, self defense is a "natural right’, or human right, granted by a Creator.

It’s something a government is instituted to protect, not grant. See the US Declaration of Independence, the 1689 English Declaration of Rights, etc.

I was paraphrasing Job, as Caesar has become the new God of many.
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Self defense is an instinct, but falls short of a right to any type weapon granted by God.

Who wrote the constitution, and the 2nd amendment? Men. It did not come from God. It is not the God breathed word.
 
Prodigal_Son1 said:
Then the Church has no authority because we know what’s better for us than the men of the Church? That’s what all this sounds like. If the Cardinal is wrong, show us the one authoritative man of the Church that is speaking correctly on the subject.

The Cardinal spoke on his lack of ‘expert’ status, and those who have the responsibility to legislate and interpret. He speaks spiritually, and not secular, in the interest of our fellow man. I give him credence and do not believe he is ‘running his mouth needlessly’.

There are 26 people in Newtown who remain silent on the issue. The majority were children, who probably didn’t know much about guns. Should we dismiss their situation? One doesn’t have to be an ‘expert’ to know there is a problem…
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I already said I give him credence. He agrees with me. At least, that;s how I read his comments. If you read it differently, perhaps you can have him clarify.

Tugging at heart strings does nothing to support your point. Unless you can tell me what the current laws are in the various localities in question, and which laws are being enforced, and what studies have been done to show some evidence that new laws will see a downshift in violence, you are wasting everyone’s time.

You never simply make more laws and restrict more freedoms without looking at the current laws first.

Again, I don’t believe for a second that anyone actually cares the way the said they do who immediately ran to tighter gun restrictions. Somehow, they conveniently diagnosed the situation, found the culprit, amassed data to show what would make the situation better, and crafted a solution, all in the span of hours.

If people actually cared about the 26 people who have no voice in Newtown, they’d be spending far more time on the real culprits and how to fix that. A cursory look at weapon’s availability is one thing. Completely making that the bulwark of the aftermath is garbage, and shows a bias that was simply looking for an excuse to come out.
 
Seems to me most bishops are not knowledgeable about the issue. They mention nothing about a 2nd amendment right, only to curtail it because of what a small amount of people do.
 
Prodigal_Son1 said:
I get it, and I get that people with problems go for guns to inflict damage, specific guns to inflict the maximum damage.

No one is trying to eradicate ALL guns. Using the same line of thought, those guns that are in the midst of mass shootings are an extremely small amount, leaving us with many, many other guns for whatever purposes one claims a need for. No one ‘hates’ an amendment; however, that amendment is from ‘Caesar’, in that it is given by the secular government. We are held to a higher authority. We give to Caesar that which is Caesar’s, and we give to God that which is God’s. God’s are the innocent victims, from the accessibility of tools of harm.

The Holy See, Cardinals, and bishops have given guidance. If that guidance is wrong, where is the correct support, as you see it?
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They likewise gave us guidance that was abundantly clear during the election, which you ignored. I recall you took unbiased stand against neither candidate, and then openly rooted against Mitt Romney and the conservative voters, salivating at Obama at every chance. Please, stop.
 
Prodigal_Son1 said:
Self defense is an instinct, but falls short of a right to any type weapon granted by God.
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We have limitations as it is. I can’t have a grenade or full auto machine gun. You just want more restrictions.
Who wrote the constitution, and the 2nd amendment? Men. It did not come from God. It is not the God breathed word.
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The whole bill of rights is to to protect the individual from the government. If you read the declaration of independence, you will know where our rights come from.
 
jay29 said:
Seems to me most bishops are not knowledgeable about the issue. They mention nothing about a 2nd amendment right, only to curtail it because of what a small amount of people do.
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But somehow, they are suing the feds over a violation of religious freedom on constitutional grounds. Ironic.
 
Frank_Drebin said:
But somehow, they are suing the feds over a violation of religious freedom on constitutional grounds. Ironic.
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The bishops pick and choose, just like the ACLU, the Southern Poverty Law Center, and the like. They don’t recognize it’s an individual right to bear arms, but all the rest of the rights are individual even though the whole bill of rights was meant for the individual. :confused:

After the bishops were BURNED by the HHS mandate, you would think they would wise up and not be so “gun shy” of the republicans.
 
Frank_Drebin said:
They likewise gave us guidance that was abundantly clear during the election, which you ignored. I recall you took unbiased stand against neither candidate, and then openly rooted against Mitt Romney and the conservative voters, salivating at Obama at every chance. Please, stop.
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How can any Catholic vote for Obama and still look in the mirror? 🤷
 
Frank_Drebin said:
But somehow, they are suing the feds over a violation of religious freedom on constitutional grounds. Ironic.
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Yeah. I just read the bishop’s document. They call for no bans on the entertainment industry or violent video games. They also fail to recognize all the psychotic drugs these young people are doped up like the shooter in Newtown was.

The bishops don’t have a clue and they admit it. Yet somehow we are supposed to believe everything they say on the issue as correct and lead other Catholics astray.
 
Frank_Drebin said:
They likewise gave us guidance that was abundantly clear during the election, which you ignored. I recall you took unbiased stand against neither candidate, and then openly rooted against Mitt Romney and the conservative voters, salivating at Obama at every chance. Please, stop.
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Off topic and highly misrepresented.

BTW, how do you recall something with a join date of, and prior to, February 15, 2013?
 
Prodigal_Son1 said:
What he said directly addressed the Holy See ‘position’ globally, and his authority reaches the same.
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There was nothing in his comments, those of previous Vatican documents, or in the catechism that obliges us to support either Obama’s comments on gun control or the new state law of which he also approved. There is nothing in any document whatever that specifies what laws are to be enacted. He said himself he is not an expert on the subject -* “I don’t pretend to be an expert on what should be in each specific bill*” so how can you possibly believe that we have any moral duty whatever to support any specific bill? He is an advocate for gun control. So? I too am an advocate for reasonable gun controls. What is not reasonable is believing that any specific bill is either more or less in accord with what the church teaches on the issue.
Then please show us the bishop that speaks up for gun rights…
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You keep asking this as if it somehow mattered. In fact, the fewer bishops that speak up on this issue the happier I am. It is outside their expertise and most of them appear to recognize this and have avoided commentary. This is not a moral issue, why would I look to the bishops for guidance on solving it?

Ender
 
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