Cardinal Dolan finds common ground with Obama on guns

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Lucky7 said:
Actually, gun control and war are both areas tht we could argue are areas of “prudential judgement”; however, if the Church has a say in what might constitute a just war, it also has a say in what it might consider appropriate with respect to guns.
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Let’s get war out of the discussion; it is no part of this debate. If you insist that the two issues are somehow connected then take what the church has said about who makes the decision about war and apply it to gun control.CCC 2309These are the traditional elements enumerated in what is called the “just war” doctrine. The evaluation of these conditions for moral legitimacy belongs to the prudential judgment of those who have responsibility for the common good.
Those who have responsibility for the common good (in the context it is used here) do not include the clergy.

Ender
 
Lucky7 said:
No prob. I think it shows that this isn’t just one bishop. This is the bishops as a whole.
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I think you misread the document; there is no reason to believe the testimony represented “the bishops as a whole.” The only thing you can say for sure is that Bishop Blair proposed four policies. Beyond that we only know that “the chairmen of three committees of the USCCB issued a joint statement to decry violence in society” and they felt we should* “address national policies that will strengthen regulations of firearms.”* I think we are all willing to decry violence.

It really is inappropriate to assume that everything that comes from the USCCB comes with the imprimatur of all the bishops. That is almost never true.

Ender
 
Ender said:
Let’s get war out of the discussion; it is no part of this debate. If you insist that the two issues are somehow connected then take what the church has said about who makes the decision about war and apply it to gun control.CCC 2309These are the traditional elements enumerated in what is called the “just war” doctrine. The evaluation of these conditions for moral legitimacy belongs to the prudential judgment of those who have responsibility for the common good.
Those who have responsibility for the common good (in the context it is used here) do not include the clergy.

Ender
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Oh enough of being obtuse. I am not equating the two issues. I am stating that if the Church can give its opinion on one it can give its opinion on the other EVEN IF the ultimate decision is made by those who have the responsibility for the common good (which happens to include the government btw). You seem to think that the clergy has no business speakin gabout these things at all. YOU ARE WRONG.
 
Ender said:
There was nothing in his comments, those of previous Vatican documents, or in the catechism that obliges us to support either Obama’s comments on gun control or the new state law of which he also approved. There is nothing in any document whatever that specifies what laws are to be enacted. He said himself he is not an expert on the subject -* “I don’t pretend to be an expert on what should be in each specific bill*” so how can you possibly believe that we have any moral duty whatever to support any specific bill? He is an advocate for gun control. So? I too am an advocate for reasonable gun controls. What is not reasonable is believing that any specific bill is either more or less in accord with what the church teaches on the issue.
You keep asking this as if it somehow mattered. In fact, the fewer bishops that speak up on this issue the happier I am. It is outside their expertise and most of them appear to recognize this and have avoided commentary. This is not a moral issue, why would I look to the bishops for guidance on solving it?

Ender
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I have stated the same. With guidance, we are guided and not obligated. We have a moral duty to ‘obey our prelates’ and not dissect everything they say as ‘prudential’, or inexperienced. Their guidance is valuable even on prudential matters.

It is a moral issue, or more specifically moral guidance on a ‘secular’ issue. To deny it as moral guidance seems to say, ‘the bishop doesn’t know what is moral and what is not.’ They have specified ‘reasonable’ as non-experts on this issue. Some on this thread have advocated nothing be done and that we have controls in place. The bishops would not seek support for nothing, or what is already in place, at least in my opinion.

We can’t say a bishop is wrong, or that he doesn’t speak for other bishops, without contrary statements from other bishops. There have been discussions, on these forums, on other issues, where the bishops were not in agreement, and finding the differences were available.
 
In reading this thread, I had to take a step back and look at the net outcome of Cardinal Dolan’s “Common ground” with Obama with regard to this issue. It managed to divide us. Satan is the great divider and he’s sitting back laughing at us about now. Put aside your bias and think about it. More importantly, pray about it.
 
Prodigal_Son1 said:
How can you see the intent of other people’s hearts? Where do you get your authority to say who is ‘real’ Catholics?
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How many of the faith teachings can a person disregard/not believe in and be anything greater than a Catholic in Name Only? A person is either loyal or disloyal to Catholic teachings. I know two people right off the bat that are CINO: Pelosi and Biden. Pelosi I know for a fact has been warned by her Bishop about her abortion stances.

Where do you draw the line?
 
jay29 said:
How many of the faith teachings can a person disregard/not believe in and be anything greater than a Catholic in Name Only? A person is either loyal or disloyal to Catholic teachings. I know two people right off the bat that are CINO: Pelosi and Biden. Pelosi I know for a fact has been warned by her Bishop about her abortion stances.

Where do you draw the line?
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They don’t. Tom Cruise is Catholic. Hitler was Catholic. Luther was Catholic. We can’t judge people’s hearts.

Of course, that is why the Church is in the mess it is in. But it feels good to e-hug everyone.
 
Frank_Drebin said:
They don’t. Tom Cruise is Catholic. Hitler was Catholic. Luther was Catholic. We can’t judge people’s hearts.

Of course, that is why the Church is in the mess it is in. But it feels good to e-hug everyone.
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LOL. Funny…Those practitioners of that line of thinking don’t realize outward actions can always be judged. It is an act of mercy to ADMONISH the sinner. 😃

I blame the Bishops for not teaching their flocks. They are more concerned with not ruffling any feathers until recently and are more concerned with social justice than the foundation of the Catholic Faith.
 
jay29 said:
How many of the faith teachings can a person disregard/not believe in and be anything greater than a Catholic in Name Only? A person is either loyal or disloyal to Catholic teachings. I know two people right off the bat that are CINO: Pelosi and Biden. Pelosi I know for a fact has been warned by her Bishop about her abortion stances.

Where do you draw the line?
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When a Catholic suffers excommunication, the Church does not discourage them coming to the place of correction. Then we must remember that ALL of us are sinners, and through our sins we disregard faith teachings.

I don’t draw the line. There is only one Judge, and He will judge us all.
 
Frank_Drebin said:
I question their understanding of the faith, or their commitment. I can’t unbaptize them.
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ὡς δὲ ἐπέμενον ἐρωτῶντες αὐτόν, ἀνέκυψεν καὶ εἶπεν αὐτοῖς, Ὁ ἀναμάρτητος ὑμῶν πρῶτος ἐπ’ αὐτὴν βαλέτω λίθον.
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When he found that they continued to question him, he looked up and said to them, Whichever of you is free from sin shall cast the first stone at her.
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John 8:7
 
ProVobis said:
John 8:7
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Ah, I see. I suppose if I wrongly interpreted that to imply that we cannot judge sinful behavior as such, I’d post it as my argument too.

Please. Fraternal correction and seeing sin for what it is s perfectly Catholic. Notice I didn’t go so far as to say they cannot be Catholic, since I have no say in their valid Baptism.
 
When will people stop equating sin with dissent?? Two very different things which require different responses.
 
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