Cardinal Dolan finds common ground with Obama on guns

[Northumbrian]

PS1 is a credit to this forum in my humble opinion.

 

[scipio337]

He wasn’t told to ‘get rid of it,’ however, he was told that those that take the sword would perish by the sword.

Render unto Caesar, and obeying those over you, is not exactly ‘anti-government’, but more like recognize that which is eternally important.

I believe the phrase was “live” by the sword, which I don’t think any of us are doing.

Apparently, Christ was ok with them “packing steel”, prior to, and then we have to view it in light of fulfillment of Scripture.

 

[Cor_Cordis]

I believe the phrase was “live” by the sword, which I don’t think any of us are doing.

Apparently, Christ was ok with them “packing steel”, prior to, and then we have to view it in light of fulfillment of Scripture.

You’re absolutely right scipio. And Peter was “living” by the sword. As in seeking vengeance.

And weapons can be (and should be) used to preserve life.

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

I believe the phrase was “live” by the sword, which I don’t think any of us are doing.

Apparently, Christ was ok with them “packing steel”, prior to, and then we have to view it in light of fulfillment of Scripture.

**Mat 26:52

(Murdock) Then Jesus said to him: Return the sword to its place; for all they that take swords, shall die by swords.

(DRB) Then Jesus saith to him: Put up again thy sword into its place: for all that take the sword shall perish with the sword.

(Etheridge) Then said Jeshu to him, Return thy sword to his place; for every one of them who take swords, by swords shall die.

(IGNT+) τοτεG5119 THEN λεγειG3004 [G5719] SAYS αυτωG846 οG3588 TO HIM ιησουςG2424 JESUS, αποστρεψονG654 [G5657] RETURN σουG4675 τηνG3588 THY μαχαιρανG3162 SWORD ειςG1519 τονG3588 TO τοπονG5117 αυτηςG846 ITS PLACE; παντεςG3956 γαρG1063 FOR ALL οιG3588 WHO λαβοντεςG2983 [G5631] TAKE “THE” μαχαιρανG3162 SWORD ενG1722 BY “THE” μαχαιραG3162 SWORD απολουνταιG622 [G5698] SHALL PERISH.

(KJV) Then said Jesus unto him, Put up again thy sword into his place: for all they that take the sword shall perish with the sword.

(KJV+) ThenG5119 saidG3004 JesusG2424 unto him,G846 Put up againG654 thyG4675 swordG3162 intoG1519 hisG846 place:G5117 forG1063 allG3956 they that takeG2983 the swordG3162 shall perishG622 withG1722 the sword.G3162

(RSV) Then Jesus said to him, "Put your sword back into its place; for all who take the sword will perish by the sword.

(TGNT+) τότε G5119 [ADV ] λέγει G3004 [V-PAI-3S ] αὐτῷ G846 [P-DSM ] ὁ G3588 [T-NSM ] Ἰησοῦς· G2424 [N-NSM ] ἀπόστρεψον G654 [V-AAM-2S ] τὴν G3588 [T-ASF ] μάχαιράν G3162 [N-ASF ] σου G4771 [P-2GS ] εἰς G1519 [PREP ] τὸν G3588 [T-ASM ] τόπον G5117 [N-ASM ] αὐτῆς· G846 [P-GSF ] πάντες G3956 [A-NPM ] γὰρ G1063 [CONJ ] οἱ G3588 [T-NPM ] λαβόντες G2983 [V-2AAP-NPM ] μάχαιραν G3162 [N-ASF ] ἐν G1722 [PREP ] μαχαίρῃ G3162 [N-DSF ] ἀπολοῦνται. G622 [V-FMI-3P ]

(Vulgate) tunc ait illi Iesus converte gladium tuum in locum suum omnes enim qui acceperint gladium gladio peribunt**

 

[Cor_Cordis]

Prodigal_Son1:
Define “take”.

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

Define “take”.

**

G2983
λαμβάνω
lambanō
lam-ban’-o
A prolonged form of a primary verb, which is used only as an alternate in certain tenses; to take (in very many applications, literally and figuratively [probably objective or active, to get hold of; whereas G1209 is rather subjective or passive, to have offered to one; while G138 is more violent, to seize or remove]): - accept, + be amazed, assay, attain, bring, X when I call, catch, come on (X unto), + forget, have, hold, obtain, receive (X after), take (away, up).

**

 

[RobbyS]

Name a single proposal that if implemented would have affected the Newtown massacre in any way.
None of the suggestions would have made any difference in Newtown.
“Try something else” is not exactly what I expect the clergy to be suggesting if for no other reason that it tends to confirm the unchallenged assumption that more laws will resolve the issue. In fact if we really want to address the problem perhaps we should look a little more deeply at it. This article in Crisis Magazine is one such suggestion.

crisismagazine.com/2013/barriers-to-teaching-boys-how-to-become-men

Ender

I am annoyed that the Cardinal saw it necessary to speak out at this time. Why not focus on more pressing issues that affect the Church, such as the move to make Catholic hospitals adhere to Obama’s morality.

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

I am annoyed that the Cardinal saw it necessary to speak out at this time. Why not focus on more pressing issues that affect the Church, such as the move to make Catholic hospitals adhere to Obama’s morality.

Cardinal Dolan brought suit against the administration, referencing the HHS mandate. He speaks on many issues, and is not confined to one at a time.

 

[The_Curt_Jester]

The minute I saw the Cardinal’s mention of “assault weapons” I ceased to take his opinion on gun control seriously. He evidently knows little about the guns. Before making such statements, a person in his position should be absolutely sure of what he is speaking about.

Honestly, I think it’s high time that Church leaders quit trying to find common ground with Obama. The only thing that will accomplish is make certain things Obama wants to push on us easier for him while doing nothing to stop everything else he’s doing as well. Does anyone truly think that if Church authorities make a concession on a point that Obama will make one as well? I don’t think so!

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

The minute I saw the Cardinal’s mention of “assault weapons” I ceased to take his opinion on gun control seriously. He evidently knows little about the guns. Before making such statements, a person in his position should be absolutely sure of what he is speaking about.

Honestly, I think it’s high time that Church leaders quit trying to find common ground with Obama. The only thing that will accomplish is make certain things Obama wants to push on us easier for him while doing nothing to stop everything else he’s doing as well. Does anyone truly think that if Church authorities make a concession on a point that Obama will make one as well? I don’t think so!

I don’t think the Church leaders are trying to find common ground, but willing to recognize when the administration finds common ground with his view. It’s not a concession.

 

[GaryTaylor]

I still don’t see where Take by the sword resolves the understanding.

‘Then Jesus said to him: Return the sword to its place; for all “they that take” swords, shall die by swords’.

How do you see a difference from they that live by the sword die by the sword?

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

I still don’t see where Take by the sword resolves the understanding.

‘Then Jesus said to him: Return the sword to its place; for all “they that take” swords, shall die by swords’.

How do see a difference from they that live by sword die by the sword?

How many ways could one die, according to what Christ taught?

 

[GaryTaylor]

A question to a question? Resist no evil is the teaching. Also the one by large resisted in US history.

Church and State is the other reading back.

 

[Cor_Cordis]

**G2983
λαμβάνω
lambanō
lam-ban’-o
A prolonged form of a primary verb, which is used only as an alternate in certain tenses; to take (in very many applications, literally and figuratively [probably objective or active, to get hold of; whereas G1209 is rather subjective or passive, to have offered to one; while G138 is more violent, to seize or remove]): - accept, + be amazed, assay, attain, bring, X when I call, catch, come on (X unto), + forget, have, hold, obtain, receive (X after), take (away, up). **

Uhm… that’s quite broad.

 

[Cor_Cordis]

How many ways could one die, according to what Christ taught?

How many ways are there to love?

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

Uhm… that’s quite broad.

It’s the definition provided as used by interpreters of the word. Broad covers a lot, doesn’t it?

 

[Cor_Cordis]

It’s the definition provided as used by interpreters of the word. Broad covers a lot, doesn’t it?

And yet, that doesn’t provide a context.

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

A question to a question? Resist no evil is the teaching. Also the one by large resisted in US history.

Church and State is the other reading back.

Resist no evil speaks volumes too.

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

And yet, that doesn’t provide a context.

I disagree. I think all Christ’s teachings provided context. He told Peter to put away his sword because, those that take the sword shall perish by the sword.

 

[Cor_Cordis]

It’s the definition provided as used by interpreters of the word. Broad covers a lot, doesn’t it?

Which is why context is needed:

In his Encyclical Letter from 1995, EVANGELIUM VITAE, Pope John Paul II writes:

“…Christian reflection has sought a fuller and deeper understanding of what God’s commandment prohibits and prescribes. There are in fact situations in which values proposed by God’s Law seem to involve a genuine paradox. This happens for example in the case of legitimate defense, in which the right to protect one’s own life and the duty not to harm someone else’s life are difficult to reconcile in practice. Certainly, the intrinsic value of life and the duty to love oneself no less than others are the basis of a true right to self-defense.”

He goes on to say:

“…legitimate defense can be not only a right but a grave duty for someone responsible for another’s life, the common good of the family or of the State. Unfortunately, it happens that the need to render the aggressor incapable of causing harm sometimes involves taking his life. In this case, the fatal outcome is attributable to the aggressor whose actions brought it about, even though he may not be morally responsible because of a lack of the use of reason.”