Cardinal Dolan finds common ground with Obama on guns

[Ridgerunner]

Hi Scipio,

You sound like my husband!

This may be a bit off topic, but what do you think about the regulations on extended magazines and the purchase of ammunition? These are not protected by the 2nd Amendment and while it may not prevent a massacre, the argument that it would mitigate their impact seems sound to me. In Tucson, Loughner was disarmed when he stopped firing in order to reload.

Adam Lanza used 30 round magazines to fire 154 bullets in 5 minutes at Sandyhook elementary school. FIVE MINUTES. He had access to 10 round magazines, but left them at home. If he only had access to the 10 round magazines he would have had to carry at least 16 in order to shoot as many bullets. During the massacre, he used a tactical method of dropping the magazines before then were empty and reloading new ones in order to avoid running out of bullets. That means even fewer bullets might have been fired and he would have had to reload more often.

How often do guns jam because the person loading the magazine made a mistake?

articles.chicagotribune.com/2013-03-28/news/sns-rt-us-usa-shooting-connecticutbre92r0em-20130328_1_adam-lanza-nancy-lanza-school-shooting

Lanza also had a couple of semi-automatic pistols with him and replacement clips for them. If his rifle jammed, all he would have had to do was pull out the pistols, which I think he actually did.

The more bullets you have in a clip or magazine, the greater is the chance of jamming. That’s both a matter of the “law of averages” and the fact that there is inevitably at least some element of “warping” the magazine and shifting the position of the shells, even a little bit, the more shells you jam into it. You’re considerably more likely to jam using a 30 round clip than a 10 round clip. Undoubtedly Lanza realized that and carried the pistols as a “backup” against jamming.

But I’m not sure any of that is terribly relevant to the question whether honest citizens should be limited in the magazines they can have. People can guess what Lanza could or could not have done, and Lanza himself probably didn’t know until the event. But even if Lanza had access to no guns at all, he could have rigged a bomb, like McVeigh, who killed a lot more people than Lanza did.

I heard an interesting take by a psychiatrist who said there is actually a separate kind of killing, which he termed “spectacle killing”. Some of these killers are specifically trying to create a 'spectacle"; something to impress the world in their twisted way. They equate it with “stardom”, and design their events for “spectacle value”, whatever it takes for them to do that. With McVeigh, it was a bomb. With the Unabomber, it was a series of bombs. With the Anthrax mailers, it was Anthrax. With Lanza, it was guns. With the 911 killers it was planes.

But no matter what, the cause is whatever impels the killers to create a “spectacle”, not the particular means they use to do it. One way or another, they’ll do it unless they, as individuals, not as bomb-builders or gun-toters or microbe gatherers, are recognized and interdicted.

 

[Sporkbeard]

Pretty much all of them… or at least most of them. Too many laws.

So how many laws will need to be repealed before we get back to the sensible level?

 

[scipio337]

Hi Scipio,

You sound like my husband!

This may be a bit off topic, but what do you think about the regulations on extended magazines and the purchase of ammunition? These are not protected by the 2nd Amendment and while it may not prevent a massacre, the argument that it would mitigate their impact seems sound to me. In Tucson, Loughner was disarmed when he stopped firing in order to reload.

Adam Lanza used 30 round magazines to fire 154 bullets in 5 minutes at Sandyhook elementary school. FIVE MINUTES. He had access to 10 round magazines, but left them at home. If he only had access to the 10 round magazines he would have had to carry at least 16 in order to shoot as many bullets. During the massacre, he used a tactical method of dropping the magazines before then were empty and reloading new ones in order to avoid running out of bullets. That means even fewer bullets might have been fired and he would have had to reload more often.

How often do guns jam because the person loading the magazine made a mistake?

articles.chicagotribune.com/2013-03-28/news/sns-rt-us-usa-shooting-connecticutbre92r0em-20130328_1_adam-lanza-nancy-lanza-school-shooting

Well, I will bet your husband is pretty smart!

I don’t believe magazine size makes any difference. Lanza dropping unspent mags isn’t a “tactical” method of changing mags, its the foolish, mall-ninja technique. The kid was used to playing video games, which is probably where he picked up that habit.

As Ridge pointed, out, higher capacity mags have a tendency to misfeed. Aurora shooter James Holmes had a 100 round magazine drum for his AR, but it misfed almost immediately, and he resorted to his handguns.

cnn.com/2012/07/22/us/colorado-shooting-investigation

Several other shooting ramages the VA Tech, Columbine, etc didn’t involve those “high capacity” magazines, and it’s a very simple matter to change them in a matter of 1 second or less to even a marginally trained shooter, or someone who practices.

With the number of magazines in circulation that hold > 10 rounds, you would almost have to go door to door to confiscate them. CT’s new proposed laws are an attempt to make them so inconvenient that people don’t bother.

 

[Sporkbeard]

Wow… it wont change anything… the only ppl its going to effect are the law abiding citizens… criminals can still get large magazines for thier weapons. They can still get fully auto assualt weapons which are currently illegal. What a crock. The libs just wanna disarm us. My advice is if you have a gun… and its not registered… then don’t register it/them. That… or get to know a thug that can get you weapons. Yeesh.

Hi Scipio,

You sound like my husband!

This may be a bit off topic, but what do you think about the regulations on extended magazines and the purchase of ammunition? These are not protected by the 2nd Amendment and while it may not prevent a massacre, the argument that it would mitigate their impact seems sound to me. In Tucson, Loughner was disarmed when he stopped firing in order to reload.

Adam Lanza used 30 round magazines to fire 154 bullets in 5 minutes at Sandyhook elementary school. FIVE MINUTES. He had access to 10 round magazines, but left them at home. If he only had access to the 10 round magazines he would have had to carry at least 16 in order to shoot as many bullets. During the massacre, he used a tactical method of dropping the magazines before then were empty and reloading new ones in order to avoid running out of bullets. That means even fewer bullets might have been fired and he would have had to reload more often.

How often do guns jam because the person loading the magazine made a mistake?

articles.chicagotribune.com/2013-03-28/news/sns-rt-us-usa-shooting-connecticutbre92r0em-20130328_1_adam-lanza-nancy-lanza-school-shooting

 

[Frank_Drebin]

To anyone who supports more regulations, what makes you think they will be enforced?

I remember living in Oklahoma when I was stationed at Tinker AFB and seeing felons with access to firearms get arrested repeatedly. The current laws are not enforced.

Does any sane person believe that we are suddenyl going to start enforcing new laws on top of the old ones we don’t enforce? Someone please explain it to me.

Anyone?

How are news laws going to do anything when current laws are not enforced?

 

[SamH]

Lanza also had a couple of semi-automatic pistols with him and replacement clips for them. If his rifle jammed, all he would have had to do was pull out the pistols, which I think he actually did.

And that is exactly what happened in Aurora, Colorado shooting. The large capacity magazine jammed on the a Smith & Wesson M&P15 and he killed most of the people with the shotgun and the two handguns.

The same thing happened at Columbine. The large capacity magazine on their TEC9 jammed the weapon. The Hi-Point carbine with 10 round magazines (13) shot many more people.

 

[SamH]

Anyone?

How are news laws going to do anything when current laws are not enforced?

They are going to disarm the law abiding and the criminals will keep breaking the law - as criminals are known to do.

 

[Least]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Frank Drebin
Anyone?

How are news laws going to do anything when current laws are not enforced?

They are going to disarm the law abiding and the criminals will keep breaking the law - as criminals are known to do.

– Sam H

Politicians and people “in-power” are equally likely, but first they typically like to disarm their constituency.

MOLON LABE

 

[Ridgerunner]

They are going to disarm the law abiding and the criminals will keep breaking the law - as criminals are known to do.

Of course, they sure are going to want to disarm the potential “terrorists”, like Evangelicals and Catholics. wnd.com/2013/04/military-warned-evangelicals-no-1-threat/

 

[George_Stegmeir]

For all of you who think that anti-gun laws will lessen violent crime, I live in the East Village neighborhood of NYC, about a block away from Thompkins Square park.
As many of you know, NYC has the toughest gun laws in the USA. Our mayor brags that it is almost impossible to get a pistol permit. Yet, I can take you into Thompkins Square park and purchase a pistol for you in less than 1/2 hour, and, if you don’t have enough money for a purchase, they will rent it to you for a few hours. And that is not the only place to buy a gun or the dope of your choice in the city!
On the other hand, a few years ago Richmond, VA had a seriously high violent assault and murder rate. They were able to cut the rate by about 90% by co-ordinating the Federal and State authorities and Courts to strictly enforce the firearms laws already on the books. Instead of prosecuting an armed robbery on a state level, it was prosecuted in Federal Court, where the sentancing was much more severe, and parole not as easy to get. They actually prooved that there was no need for additional gun laws when the existing ones were strictly enforced.

 

[Least]

During the massacre, he used a tactical method of dropping the magazines before then were empty and reloading new ones in order to avoid running out of bullets. That means even fewer bullets might have been fired and he would have had to reload more often.

You watch a lot of TV? I can’t claim to be an expert, but some of you need to go to the range at least once. All of you need to go to the range before you go to the two-way range. Some of you I might meet at the range this Saturday, hope your groups are tight and hope you’re having an easier time than me finding ammo. CT, MD, and CO folks are just waking up to the joy of trying to find some at a half-way decent price, soon they’ll be wondering where to get any, but, hey, times are tough, we can only hope the demand broadens the overall gun-owner base, and that it keeps the ammo makers cranking.

“he used a tactical method of dropping the magazines before then were empty and reloading new ones in order to avoid running out of bullets.” ???

That might be a “tactical” method if a shooter was working with another shooter and attempting to coordinate movement under fire. It would NOT if the shooter was un-opposed, and uninhibited (* which was the explicit purpose of the shooter choosing the “soft target” school) as a magazine change takes the same amount of time empty as it does partially empty. Therefore, for maximum kills, a shooter would empty a magazine (use all of the rounds) before moving to the next. If he chose to change a magazine out before the magazine was empty, it would more likely be so that an open bolt on an empty chamber didn’t break his concentration, but changing early would not necessarily speed him up, nor would dropping the magazine (clips are what you wear in your hair sissy).

“You cannot invade the mainland United States. There would be a rifle behind every blade of grass” - Quote mis-attributed to Isoroku Yamamoto, Fleet Admiral and Commander-in-Chief of the Imperial Japanese Navy (IJN) during World War II.

Yamamoto may not have said it, but the quote cannot also be refuted by any other sentiment expressed by him.

If Yamamoto were alive today, the mis-attributed quote would leave out mention of the grass, because US gun ownership has spiked hard enough over the past few months to boost US economic numbers.

And yet it’s a plenty peaceful place. Other countries don’t trust their citizens with weapons, but US citizens don’t care, if you think that the idiots running your countries are more noble creatures than you, we don’t trust you with guns either.

Disarm yourselves all you would like, just don’t call it Christianity, and leave the rest of us out of it.

μολὼν λαβέ molṑn labé MOLON LABE.*

 

[young_sister]

i say this in love but cardinal Dolan is an idiot …a self serving hypocrite…right up there with the so called catholic politicians …people kept asking if there was a chance of an american Pope…not in this life time …all of the US cardinals snuggle up to politicians regardless of the politics…its time the cardinals and the bishops stood up for their faith , the Church …God …
not one of the american cardinals could keep their mouths shut during the conclave …daily press conferences …they had to be told to keep quiet …before expecting the hypocritical politicians to repent , they need to…and stop giving communion to those who voted for abortion and gay marriage …STAND UP FOR CHRIST our LORD and SAVIOUR…contrary to belief Obama and the politicians are not GOD fearing men …they are not the Messiah

 

[livingwordunity]

For all of you who think that anti-gun laws will lessen violent crime, I live in the East Village neighborhood of NYC, about a block away from Thompkins Square park.
As many of you know, NYC has the toughest gun laws in the USA. Our mayor brags that it is almost impossible to get a pistol permit. Yet, I can take you into Thompkins Square park and purchase a pistol for you in less than 1/2 hour, and, if you don’t have enough money for a purchase, they will rent it to you for a few hours. And that is not the only place to buy a gun or the dope of your choice in the city!
On the other hand, a few years ago Richmond, VA had a seriously high violent assault and murder rate. They were able to cut the rate by about 90% by co-ordinating the Federal and State authorities and Courts to strictly enforce the firearms laws already on the books. Instead of prosecuting an armed robbery on a state level, it was prosecuted in Federal Court, where the sentancing was much more severe, and parole not as easy to get. They actually prooved that there was no need for additional gun laws when the existing ones were strictly enforced.

 

[Least]

The people in power are even more temporary than the constituency they serve, and both are more temporary than the country that they are incorporated within. Either way, those in power are no more noble a creature than the remainder. This is ABSOLUTELY TRUE, regardless of where in the world we are talking about, but we profess it and hold it sacred here in America.

No one can say, however, how long America will last and anyone making a prognostication must admit that it is merely that or they are lying.

Again, I say, keep your guns for when America ends, because then it will be absolutely certain what your value is compared to your fellow man, and you may no longer wish to coalesce again into a new country with them, and/or they might not invite you into theirs.

MOLON LABE

 

[Ridgerunner]

i say this in love but cardinal Dolan is an idiot …a self serving hypocrite…right up there with the so called catholic politicians …people kept asking if there was a chance of an american Pope…not in this life time …all of the US cardinals snuggle up to politicians regardless of the politics…its time the cardinals and the bishops stood up for their faith , the Church …God …
not one of the american cardinals could keep their mouths shut during the conclave …daily press conferences …they had to be told to keep quiet …before expecting the hypocritical politicians to repent , they need to…and stop giving communion to those who voted for abortion and gay marriage …STAND UP FOR CHRIST our LORD and SAVIOUR…contrary to belief Obama and the politicians are not GOD fearing men …they are not the Messiah

Cdl Dolan announced himsefl favorable to gun control in a very general way, but said he would accept whatever the legislature did. The U.S. Senate tabled Obama’s gun control bill, so, the legislature having spoken, presumably Cdl Dolan is fine with that.

 

[Fairwinds]

el presidente squandered a moral panic and didn’t get what should have been modest reforms because of the crazed gun grabbers in the ultra liberal wing of his party.

its too late now to revisit gun control reforms for a couple of years.

we second amendment advocates are not unreasonable. if specific legislation comes up for analysis, we can deal with it then on its merits.

 

[Least]

“One interesting note here – much of the Gun Control Act of 1968 is based on the Nazi Weapons Law of 1938. Former Senator Dodd was one of the main authors of the GCA of 1968. He was also was a senior member of the U.S. team that helped to prosecute*** Nazi war criminals at Nuremberg, Germany ***in 1945-46. He managed to come up with an original copy of this law (it is a rare and hard to find document) and fourth months before the GCA of 1968 was passed he asked The Library of Congress translator to make an English translation for him. You can compare the translation to the GCA of 1968 and see it is the primary source. This is where the “test” or qualification of a firearm be suitable for sporting purposes comes from. So the SPAS really has the Nazi’s as the original creators of the name.” (spas12.com/spas.htm) [EMPHASIS MINE]

WE ALL KNOW WHERE YOU ANTI-SECOND AMENDMENT TYPES ARE GOING WITH THESE ATTEMPTS AND WE ARE WATCHING.

“I WILL NOT PAY TO RAISE UP AN ARMY AGAINST MYSELF” (TERMS, J.M. Thomas R., 2012)

YOU ARE NEVER APART FROM CONFLICT, AND YOU ARE ALWAYS THE GENERAL

“If when Political objects are unimportant, motives weak, the excitement of forces small, a cautious commander tries in all kinds of ways, without great crises and bloody solutions, to twist himself skillfully into peace through the characteristic weakness of his enemy in the field and in the cabinet, we have no right to find fault with him, if the premise on which he acts are well founded and justified by success; still we must require him to remember that he only travels on forbidden tracks, where the God of War may surprise him; that he ought always to keep his eye on the enemy, in order that he may not have to defend himself with a dress rapier if the enemy takes u p a sharp sword”. (Clausewitz, “On War” pg. 137) (TERMS, J.M. Thomas R., 2012, Pg. 26).

We also know that most of the gun-ban language and pressure stems from some poorly-fortituded individuals who wish to go squishy one-world on us and bow at the alter of the stupid U.N. despite the U.N.'s denials (search.un.org/search?ie=utf8&site=un_org&output=xml_no_dtd&client=UN_Website_en&num=10&lr=lang_en&proxystylesheet=UN_Website_en&oe=utf8&q=gun+ban). The U.N.'s own words say they are out to totally disarm; “It will be a powerful new tool in our efforts to prevent grave human rights abuses or violations of international humanitarian law. And it will provide much-needed momentum for other global disarmament and non-proliferation efforts.” (un.org/News/Press/docs/2013/sgsm14919.doc.htm)

 

[Fairwinds]

"One interesting note here…

I don’t really see the comparison between the nazi law of 1938 and the gun control act of 1968.

you linked to a gun nut site that’s in love with Franchi SPAS-12 shotguns.

 

[Least]

I don’t really see the comparison between the nazi law of 1938 and the gun control act of 1968.

you linked to a gun nut site that’s in love with Franchi SPAS-12 shotguns.

Correct, if you ignore that the law of 1938 built upon the back of previous law of 1928, by specifically banning political and social “enemies of the state” from owning, possessing, manufacturing weapons or ammunition.

But, thanks for finally lookin into it.

I did link to a very informative site whose author is relatively knowlegable about gun laws and the Franchi SPAS-12, but not a lover.

It is an awesome firearm, however, the haters-of-which are typically diminuitive souls with not enough bolstering body-mass to support the weapons functioning in semi-auto (4 rounds a second) mode. Or, they are sour-grapers who cannot afford one, or cannot find one after evil gun-haters caused a cessation of their importation, a change in their name, and finally the Company ceased their production.

Nothin’ about the U.N. citations bother you?

WHY ARE THE EVIL ANTI-GUN NUTS TRYING TO DISARM US FOR THE NEXT CIVIL WAR, OR WAR WITH CHINA??? You can say that you’re not, but that’s exactly what you’d say if you were.

 

[Fairwinds]

Correct, if you ignore that the law of 1938 built upon the back of previous law of 1928, by specifically banning political and social “enemies of the state” from owning, possessing, manufacturing weapons or ammunition.

But, thanks for finally lookin into it.

I did link to a very informative site whose author is relatively knowlegable about gun laws and the Franchi SPAS-12, but not a lover.

It is an awesome firearm, however, the haters-of-which are typically diminuitive souls with not enough bolstering body-mass to support the weapons functioning in semi-auto (4 rounds a second) mode. Or, they are sour-grapers who cannot afford one, or cannot find one after evil gun-haters caused a cessation of their importation, a change in their name, and finally the Company ceased their production.

Nothin’ about the U.N. citations bother you?

I can afford that toy gun, only I don’t want one. the price range for those is just above the “junk” class for trap and skeet guns.

I don’t consider the site’s author to be particularly knowledgeable about second amendment law, he struck me as another gun nut whose also in love with bad web design.

the nazi gun laws eased many restrictions and were, not surprisingly, targeting Jews. what this has to do with US gun control issues you’re not making clear.

the UN is a big scary monster for many, but not for me.