Cardinal Dolan Visits New York Mosque

[Filii_Dei]

Does the Jewish God?

An incorrect comparison. Jewish theology does not encompass the Trinity, but this is because it is a concept stemming from Christian theology. Their rejection of the Trinity simply lies in a (mistaken) interpretation of an earlier (true) understanding that God is one. Christian theology builds upon this, and further perfects the Jewish understanding of God. This is why we cannot blame them for this interpretation because they are - so to speak - still stuck in an earlier phase of their faith. However, the New Testament is witness to the fact that God is indeed a Trinity of the one God, and was further fleshed out by the Church Fathers in the many years following.

On the other hand, Islam came many centuries after Christianity and the widespread acceptance of the Holy Trinity, claiming to be a successor to Christianity, and yet they rejected the Trinity. This is patently false and denies the truth that was handed down to all Christians many years prior. This is just one of the innumerable reasons why their religion is false.

 

[DLG123]

Except that the Muslim god bears no resemblance to the Holy Trinity - Father, Son, and Holy Spirit - that we Catholics believe. Unless Jesus Christ is somehow no longer considered God, I don’t know how anyone can reconcile this statement with Catholic theology.

How is our God the same as their god? If you ask them the will say that it is NOT the same god.

I mean seriously do we have to appease everyone? When the side of the mosque that faces the Church of the Holy Sepulchre has written in GIANT letters “God has No Son”… They are blatant and in your face about their beliefs.

Inter religious dialog is fine… I mean first lets try to get them to stop chopping off our priests heads in the middle east. I am all for letting them believe how they want and live in peace with them. But if only one side wants to live in peace and the other doesn’t… That’s known as a slaughter.

But please lets stop this charade that we share the same God because we don’t IMO.

DLG

 

[SirStephen]

Please check out the following links. The first takes you to an Islamic dawah initiative somewhere in America. In Q & A, a young Catholic woman asks if it is true that all Catholics go to Hell. From the information I sent earlier on the Quranic verses relating to what Jesus revealed in the Qur’an, can you see that the Muslim is being perfectly honest and 100% accurate to Islam and the “Uncreated Word of Allah” when telling that girl that if she believes that Jesus is the Son of God, she will go to hell? That if Catholics (Protestants, Evangelicals and Jews) really believed in the God of their faith, they would have been directed to follow Muhammad? (I could provide an authoritative citation regarding this last point if requested.) But PLEASE, don’t tell me the Muslim man is confused in his belief or is mistaken in his understanding of the nature of Allah, including Isa (Jesus), in Islam:

myislamicvideo.blogspot.ca/2013/05/because-im-catholic-i-am-going-to-hell.html

That young woman knew what she believed and so she also knew what she could not believe as a consequense. And in that forum, knowing the Truth (and the truth) and speaking the truth took an act of courage. Also, lest anyone think the points made in this string are truly in serious dispute within the Islamic world, even in America, the next link takes you to Shaykh Yasir Qhadi, a luminary in the American Muslim community who is currently the Senior Scholar at the Memphis Islamic Center. He too does all the outreach with other denominations, including the local diocese – where he gets all the praises (just like Anwar al-Awlaki did when he was at the Dar al-Hijra Mosque in N Virginia). Of course, we all know Qhadi says all the gooey things that his weak-minded interfaith peers need to hear so that they can feel ennobled and empowered when silencing the the sheep in their flock that know the wolf when they see it. As is more often the case than you might think, we also have Qhadi’s instruction for American Muslims. For example:

youtube.com/watch?v=l1jC0y8hIs8&feature=player_embedded

As it relates to both these clips, when praising Muslims for their devout faith, this is what our leaders in the interfaith movement are praising - and it matters little that they did not understand this when making such utterances. One needs only read the “Explanatory Memorandum,” the Muslim Brotherhoods strategic document relating to their U.S. plans – and entered into a Federal Court as evidence – to understand the role of “Islamic Centers” (paragraph 17).

The saddest part of it is that if that young woman related her experience on this forum, there would be some that would point out that even asking the question was possibly “uncharitable” and others would have pointed out that there is a bigger picture blah blah blah.

 

[je333]

How Can Catholics and Christians say that Muslims and people of other religions are worshipping different God? That statement suggests that you are polytheistic in your beliefs! There is only ONE God and he is worshipped in different manners and practices because human beings have different cultures and traditions. Catholicism have not only “chritianized” people but also have universalized religions. This is very important to note because all these localized religions have already been incorporated into Catholicism by Jesus Christ because he is a Universal God. Catholicism rejects nothing of what is true in these localized religion.

Muslims may be rejecting the doctrinal teachings of the Trinity orally but thru action and prayers they are worshipping his written name which is the Universal Trinitarian God written in different perspective. The Brahamic and Taoic religions are also worshipping his written name in a mirror image of that of Abrahamic’s.

 

[SirStephen]

How Can Catholics and Christians say that Muslims and people of other religions are worshipping different God? That statement suggests that you are polytheistic in your beliefs! There is only ONE God and he is worshipped in different manners and practices because human beings have different cultures and traditions. Catholicism have not only “chritianized” people but also have universalized religions. This is very important to note because all these localized religions have already been incorporated into Catholicism by Jesus Christ because he is a Universal God. Catholicism rejects nothing of what is true in these localized religion.

Muslims may be rejecting the doctrinal teachings of the Trinity orally but thru action and prayers they are worshipping his written name which is the Universal Trinitarian God written in different perspective. The Brahamic and Taoic religions are also worshipping his written name in a mirror image of that of Abrahamic’s.

On June 16, 2000, Pope John Paul authorized the Office of the Congregation for the Doctrine of Faith to promulgate the DECLARATION “Dominus Iesus” written by then Prefect Joseph Cardinal Ratzinger. It was written as, and intended to be, DOCTRINE. From that document (vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/cfaith/documents/rc_con_cfaith_doc_20000806_dominus-iesus_en.html), relevant part of Sections 3, 4, and 5:

1. In the practice of dialogue between the Christian faith and other religious traditions, as well as in seeking to understand its theoretical basis more deeply, new questions arise that need to be addressed through pursuing new paths of research, advancing proposals, and suggesting ways of acting that call for attentive discernment.
2. The Church’s constant missionary proclamation is endangered today by relativistic theories which seek to justify religious pluralism, not only de facto but also de iure (or in principle). As a consequence, it is held that certain truths have been superseded; for example, the definitive and complete character of the revelation of Jesus Christ, the nature of Christian faith as compared with that of belief in other religions, the inspired nature of the books of Sacred Scripture, the personal unity between the Eternal Word and Jesus of Nazareth, the unity of the economy of the Incarnate Word and the Holy Spirit, the unicity and salvific universality of the mystery of Jesus Christ, the universal salvific mediation of the Church, the inseparability — while recognizing the distinction — of the kingdom of God, the kingdom of Christ, and the Church, and the subsistence of the one Church of Christ in the Catholic Church.
3. As a remedy for this relativistic mentality, which is becoming ever more common, it is necessary above all to reassert the definitive and complete character of the revelation of Jesus Christ. In fact, it must be firmly believed that, in the mystery of Jesus Christ, the Incarnate Son of God, who is “the way, the truth, and the life” (Jn 14:6), the full revelation of divine truth is given: “No one knows the Son except the Father, and no one knows the Father except the Son and anyone to whom the Son wishes to reveal him” (Mt 11:27); “No one has ever seen God; God the only Son, who is in the bosom of the Father, has revealed him” (Jn 1:18); “For in Christ the whole fullness of divinity dwells in bodily form” (Col 2:9-10).

 

[shocktrooper]

Easy. That is why we have the Holy Spirit leading the Church as the living body of Christ instead of every individual trying to think these things through. I mean, if seeing the difference between God and a cow is tough, we can always just listen to the Church.

Are there no false gods?

 

[meltzerboy]

Are there no false gods?

To me (and according to Jewish belief), idol-worshiping smacks of a false god. Even if one worships only one idol, to believe the physical substance of the idol itself is a god, that is false. But Muslims believe in a spiritual rather than physical G-d, and therefore I would say they worship the true G-d, as do Jews and Christians.

 

[livingwordunity]

Muslims believe that we are blaspheming when we call God our Father and when we say that Jesus is the only begotten Son of God and when we say that Jesus was crucified. They believe our doctrine of the Holy Trinity is blasphemy. That doesn’t leave much for us to have in common other than we both belong to a religion. But may God bless Cardinal Dolan for his efforts.

It is dogma that Catholics and Muslims worship the same God. That is the basis for a great deal of commonality I think.

Do you believe that the teaching of the Church is wrong on this matter?

Nothing in what I said contradicted anything that is taught by the Catholic Church.

 

[Filii_Dei]

To me (and according to Jewish belief), idol-worshiping smacks of a false god. Even if one worships only one idol, to believe the physical substance of the idol itself is a god, that is false. But Muslims believe in a spiritual rather than physical G-d, and therefore I would say they worship the true G-d, as do Jews and Christians.

We’re not talking about the Jewish perspective, but your contribution is certainly noted with thanks.

 

[Robin_des_Bois]

Except that the Muslim god bears no resemblance to the Holy Trinity - Father, Son, and Holy Spirit - that we Catholics believe. Unless Jesus Christ is somehow no longer considered God, I don’t know how anyone can reconcile this statement with Catholic theology.

Same thing for the Jews, and you and them both have the same god.

 

[pnewton]

Are there no false gods?

Yes, there are. If one listens to the Church, one would know that the God of Islam, while falsely worshiped, is not a false God. This is why we have a teacher in the Church. I think the better question is why do Catholics want to argue with the Church, or Cardinal Dolan on this. We are still obligated to evangelize. We still believe that all will on be saved through Jesus. Except for the purpose of judgmentalism, which we are forbidden to do, why is this even an issue?

 

[Cojuanco]

Yes, there are. If one listens to the Church, one would know that the God of Islam, while falsely worshiped, is not a false God. This is why we have a teacher in the Church. I think the better question is why do Catholics want to argue with the Church, or Cardinal Dolan on this. We are still obligated to evangelize. We still believe that all will on be saved through Jesus. Except for the purpose of judgmentalism, which we are forbidden to do, why is this even an issue?

Secular politics, I suspect. Makes the ‘enemy’ less easy to relate to (some think American Muslims are per se a threat to the Republic).

 

[pnewton]

Secular politics, I suspect.

I would not be surprised. I think the leaking of politics into our spiritual lives is a source of many ills. We should strive to let our spiritual life dominate our politics.

 

[Robert_Sock]

Back in early Spain, just prior to the Spanish Inquisition, Jews, Catholics and Muslims lived and studied together.

 

[meltzerboy]

Back in early Spain, just prior to the Spanish Inquisition, Jews, Catholics and Muslims lived and studied together.

While the gist of this Golden Age of Spain is probably correct, there is much historical controversy about the period of time in which Jews, Catholics, and Muslims co-existed peacefully as well as which restrictions applied to Jews and Christians under Muslim rule. Certainly a topic in its own right for another thread.

 

[Cath4life]

it is blasphemy to say “Allah is Christ the son of Mary” and then warns Muslims not to be friends with either Christians or Jews:
.

If it’s blasphemy to be friends with Christians or Jews, how are they supposed to engage in ecumenical conversation??

 

[shocktrooper]

Yes, there are. If one listens to the Church, one would know that the God of Islam, while falsely worshiped, is not a false God. This is why we have a teacher in the Church. I think the better question is why do Catholics want to argue with the Church, or Cardinal Dolan on this. We are still obligated to evangelize. We still believe that all will on be saved through Jesus. Except for the purpose of judgmentalism, which we are forbidden to do, why is this even an issue?

pnewton,

The god of Islam says, via Islamic “revelation”, that he does not have a son. How do you reconcile this with the God of the OT/NT? Are you saying that God can give conflicting revelations about His nature to two different groups of people? If God can’t, then is it not the case that a “false god” has lead the Islamic people astray?

By saying we worship the same God, one seems to also say that God is schizophrenic, which causes even greater problems.

 

[shocktrooper]

Same thing for the Jews, and you and them both have the same god.

See post 77.

 

[shocktrooper]

Secular politics, I suspect. Makes the ‘enemy’ less easy to relate to (some think American Muslims are per se a threat to the Republic).

No. It is an issue because some seem to want to create a dichotomy between faith and reason. Juxtaposing Christian and Islamic revelations concerning God Himself, using reason, clearly shows that one is false… Since Islam is a heresy that draws on both Jewish and Christian doctrine, I choose not to go the route of Islam.

Is there one TRUE God? Yes!

Are there FALSE gods? Yes!

Do Muslims and Christians worship one God? Yes!

Did God (OT/NT) reveal Himself to Christians as trinitarian? Yes!

Did “Allah” reveal himself to Muslims as NOT trinitarian? Yes!

Is the God worshiped by each the same in nature according to the revelation given to each group of people? No!

Has the Triune God been rejected by Islam? Yes!

In our hearts and minds, formed by our respective revelations, do we worship the SAME God? No!

 

[Filii_Dei]

Did “Allah” reveal himself to Muslims as NOT trinitarian? Yes!

Well, it could alternatively be phrased as,

Did Allah “reveal” himself to Muslims as NOT trinitarian? Yes!

Minor note: “Allah” is also used by many Syriac Catholics and Christians to refer to God. Their communities and histories predate the Islamic prophet himself.

Could it not also be argued that Muslims have been misled and deceived into worshipping and understanding the same God?

On the other hand, we could use one of the early (and ironically also current) Christian heresies as an example. We know that while the Arians preached a wrong understanding of the same Jesus Christ, one could also argue that because of this wrong understanding of Jesus Christ, that they have ended up teaching a different Christ…

Well at least we can agree that they’re wrong.