Cardinal Dolan Visits New York Mosque

[livingwordunity]

Cardinal Dolan does evangelize the folks in New York by means of his charity and love for them and his speaking up for the Church on all kinds of social issues. However, he also understands the idea of freedom of religion, especially in a city as diverse as New York.

That’s true. Even though we know that the truth about God is found in Judaism and fullfilled in Christianity, with the fullness of this divinely revealed truth subsisting in the Catholic Church, we can’t force it on those who can’t see this truth.

 

[_Abyssinia]

It does not conflict with Catholic theology, which I am sure Cardinal Dolan is well-versed in. He said it is the same God, not that the Muslims were correct in everything they believe about God. Abraham, Isaac and Jacob had some incorrect beliefs about God. I am sure in heaven, we too will learn that much of what we think we know of God is mistaken. Yet, the core belief is all correct. God is still one. When dealing with a transcendent God, inaccuracy is unavoidable.

The One God that Christians believe in is Father, Son, and Holy Spirit and the Son in the doctrine of the Trinity is Jesus Christ and Jesus being God is something Muslims find blasphemous. How can Muslims and Christians believe in the same God when Muslims do not worship Jesus Christ?

 

[Tarpeian_Rock]

I’m not sure this can properly be called ecumenism, since Muslims are not Christians. This is interreligious dialogue.

There is of course a difference between interreligious dialogue and political peace-keeping.

 

[pnewton]

T How can Muslims and Christians believe in the same God when Muslims do not worship Jesus Christ?

Because the Muslims are wrong. But realize that this is what the Church teaches, that they are the same God, as opposed to those who worshiped Baal, for example. The Muslims too worship God who is trinitarian. They just do not know or believe this. Cardinal Dolan’s remarks reflected Catholic teaching, which should be no surprise.

 

[pnewton]

Muslims believe that we are blaspheming when we call God our Father and when we say that Jesus is the only begotten Son of God and when we say that Jesus was crucified. They believe our doctrine of the Holy Trinity is blasphemy. That doesn’t leave much for us to have in common other than we both belong to a religion.

This statement is all too true, theologically. I think one reason we keep hearing statements like the one the Cardinal made is because that is about the only thing we can say, again, theologically. In a sense it is a “damning with feint praise.”

I think we need to remember though that morally and philosophically, we may have more in common with Muslims than we do with modernists Christian elements. At least we both belief in objective moral teaching. Some Muslims call us The Great Satan. That should tell us they may have a better understanding of our moral position than many Christians here.

 

[Cojuanco]

Except that the Muslim god bears no resemblance to the Holy Trinity - Father, Son, and Holy Spirit - that we Catholics believe. Unless Jesus Christ is somehow no longer considered God, I don’t know how anyone can reconcile this statement with Catholic theology.

But the Jews do not believe in the Trinity either. Does that mean they do not worship the same God we do?

 

[Cojuanco]

This statement is all too true, theologically. I think one reason we keep hearing statements li the one the Cardinal made is because that is about the only thing we can say, again, theologically. In a sense it is a “damning with feint praise.”

I think we need to remember though that morally and philosophically, we may have more in common with Muslims than we do with modernists Christian elements. At least we both belief in objective moral teaching. Some Muslims call us The Great Satan. That should tell us they may have a better understanding of our moral position than many Christians here.

Not to mention unlike many modernists, they acknowledge that blasphemy is an actual evil, no matter what the laws say. Or that morality in general is not something relative. They may worship the wrong way and believe heretical things about God, but when you consider a lot of people don’t take God or morality seriously, well…

 

[GraceSofia]

But the Jews do not believe in the Trinity either. Does that mean they do not worship the same God we do?

They worship the same God but have an imperfect understanding of Him, is how I understand it.

1. As the sacred synod searches into the mystery of the Church, it remembers the bond that spiritually ties the people of the New Covenant to Abraham’s stock.

Thus the Church of Christ acknowledges that, according to God’s saving design, the beginnings of her faith and her election are found already among the Patriarchs, Moses and the prophets. She professes that all who believe in Christ -Abraham’s sons according to faith (6) -are included in the same Patriarch’s call, and likewise that the salvation of the Church is mysteriously foreshadowed by the chosen people’s exodus from the land of bondage. The Church, therefore, cannot forget that she received the revelation of the Old Testament through the people with whom God in His inexpressible mercy concluded the Ancient Covenant. Nor can she forget that she draws sustenance from the root of that well-cultivated olive tree onto which have been grafted the wild shoots, the Gentiles.(7) Indeed, the Church believes that by His cross Christ, Our Peace, reconciled Jews and Gentiles. making both one in Himself…Nevertheless, God holds the Jews most dear for the sake of their Fathers; He does not repent of the gifts He makes or of the calls He issues-such is the witness of the Apostle.

From NOSTRA AETATE, the next section after the part on the Muslims.

 

[Cirdan_XII]

However, I think that the analogies he drew are somewhat imprudent, to put it mildly. I don’t know of any religiously-based terrorism being perpetuated by Catholics in this country.

but US-based Irish Americans payrolled the IRA for decades

 

[Cirdan_XII]

Not to mention unlike many modernists, they acknowledge that blasphemy is an actual evil, no matter what the laws say. Or that morality in general is not something relative. They may worship the wrong way and believe heretical things about God, but when you consider a lot of people don’t take God or morality seriously, well…

In Holland and other places In Europe where religious people are in a clear minority, you actually see examples of Muslims and conservative Christians forming political alliances to improve their standing in the face of an atheist majority very much in favour of euthanasia, abortions etc.

 

[KEP1983]

Time to trot out the sentence from the Lumen Gentium:So if those involved in the Second Vatican Council were able to do it, and those involved in the Catechism of the Catholic Church were able to do it, and Cardinal Dolan is able to do it, it must not be that hard to reconcile that concept with Catholic theology.

Lumen Gentium doesn’t say that Muslims worship the same God as Christians. It says “”[Muslims] profess to hold the faith of Abraham, and together with us they adore the one, merciful God, mankind’s judge on the last day.""

“PROFESS” is not the same as “ACTUALLY DO.”

It can be said that Muslims worship God in the sense that they worship the Creator of the Universe. But that doesn’t mean Muslims don’t need to be evangelized or that they don’t need to convert. It doesn’t mean Islam is true. Islam is only true on the aspects that it agrees with Catholicism. The truth is first and foremost Catholic, as it was revealed by God Himself through Jesus; and any truth that any religion has outside of Catholicism is only true in that it agrees with Catholicism, not that the religion is true in and of itself.

It also doesn’t mean that a person who PROFESSES to hold the faith of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob actually DOES. Both Muslims and Mormons claim to hold the faith of Abraham. Neither ACTUALLY do.

 

[meltzerboy]

Lumen Gentium doesn’t say that Muslims worship the same God as Christians. It says “”[Muslims] profess to hold the faith of Abraham, and together with us they adore the one, merciful God, mankind’s judge on the last day.""

“PROFESS” is not the same as “ACTUALLY DO.”

It can be said that Muslims worship God in the sense that they worship the Creator of the Universe. But that doesn’t mean Muslims don’t need to be evangelized or that they don’t need to convert. It doesn’t mean Islam is true. Islam is only true on the aspects that it agrees with Catholicism. The truth is first and foremost Catholic, as it was revealed by God Himself through Jesus; and any truth that any religion has outside of Catholicism is only true in that it agrees with Catholicism, not that the religion is true in and of itself.

It also doesn’t mean that a person who PROFESSES to hold the faith of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob actually DOES. Both Muslims and Mormons claim to hold the faith of Abraham. Neither ACTUALLY do.

How about the second half of the statement: “…and together with us they adore the one, merciful G-d…”? According to my interpretation, that refers to Muslims’ behavior, their act of adoration, or worship. The profession of faith precedes the act of adoration.

 

[Tarpeian]

patheos.com/blogs/deaconsbench/2013/06/cardinal-dolan-makes-first-visit-to-new-york-city-mosque-you-love-god-we-love-god/

The cardinal asked questions about the Muslim faith and emphasized throughout his visit how much the two religions and their members have in common.
“You love God, we love God and he is the same God,” the cardinal said of the Muslim and Roman Catholic faiths.

He likened Muslims to earlier waves of Roman Catholic immigrants who some 150 years ago faced the same challenge of “how to become loyal, responsible, patriotic Americans without losing their faith.”

Thoughts? Please be civil.

Liberalism is a Sin!!

 

[KEP1983]

How about the second half of the statement: “…and together with us they adore the one, merciful G-d…”? According to my interpretation, that refers to Muslims’ behavior, their act of adoration, or worship. The profession of faith precedes the act of adoration.

I already addressed that:

It can be said that Muslims worship God in the sense that they worship the Creator of the Universe. But that doesn’t mean Muslims don’t need to be evangelized or that they don’t need to convert. It doesn’t mean Islam is true. Islam is only true on the aspects that it agrees with Catholicism. The truth is first and foremost Catholic, as it was revealed by God Himself through Jesus; and any truth that any religion has outside of Catholicism is only true in that it agrees with Catholicism, not that the religion is true in and of itself.

It also doesn’t mean that a person who PROFESSES to hold the faith of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob actually DOES. Both Muslims and Mormons claim to hold the faith of Abraham. Neither ACTUALLY do.

 

[ringil]

patheos.com/blogs/deaconsbench/2013/06/cardinal-dolan-makes-first-visit-to-new-york-city-mosque-you-love-god-we-love-god/

The cardinal asked questions about the Muslim faith and emphasized throughout his visit how much the two religions and their members have in common.
“You love God, we love God and he is the same God,” the cardinal said of the Muslim and Roman Catholic faiths.

He likened Muslims to earlier waves of Roman Catholic immigrants who some 150 years ago faced the same challenge of “how to become loyal, responsible, patriotic Americans without losing their faith.”

Thoughts? Please be civil.

My thoughts are that this is great and shows Dolan as a prince of the Church invested with the spirit of God and the Authority to teach the faithful.

God Bless this fine prelate.

 

[ringil]

Muslims believe that we are blaspheming when we call God our Father and when we say that Jesus is the only begotten Son of God and when we say that Jesus was crucified. They believe our doctrine of the Holy Trinity is blasphemy. That doesn’t leave much for us to have in common other than we both belong to a religion. But may God bless Cardinal Dolan for his efforts.

It is dogma that Catholics and Muslims worship the same God. That is the basis for a great deal of commonality I think.

Do you believe that the teaching of the Church is wrong on this matter?

 

[ringil]

It also doesn’t mean that a person who PROFESSES to hold the faith of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob actually DOES. Both Muslims and Mormons claim to hold the faith of Abraham. Neither ACTUALLY do.

And yet the Church has made no statement on the Mormons but they have on Islam.

Muslims do worship the same God but, like Baptists, evangelicals, Lutherans, Sikhs, and Buddhists they should be brought into communion with the Church.

 

[markomalley]

It is dogma that Catholics and Muslims worship the same God. That is the basis for a great deal of commonality I think.

Do you believe that the teaching of the Church is wrong on this matter?

*It is **dogma **that Catholics and Muslims worship the same God.
*
Dogma??? Really???
DOGMA. Doctrine taught by the Church to be believed by all the faithful as part of divine revelation. All dogmas, therefore, are formally revealed truths and promulgated as such by the Church. They are revealed either in Scripture or tradition, either explicitly (as the Incarnation) or implicitly (as the Assumption). Moreover, their acceptance by the faithful must be proposed as necessary for salvation. They may be taught by the Church in a solemn manner, as with the definition of the Immaculate Conception, or in an ordinary way, as with the constant teaching on the malice of taking innocent human life. (Etym. Latin dogma; from Greek dogma, declaration, decree.)
So in other words, you are saying that, for the purpose of salvation, I must believe that Muslims worship the same god as Christians? Really???

Please show me where in the Scriptures or where in Sacred Tradition that this originated from…

 

[JMJSHJ]

It is dogma that Catholics and Muslims worship the same God. That is the basis for a great deal of commonality I think.

Do you believe that the teaching of the Church is wrong on this matter?

I don’t think it rises to the level of “dogma” but it is a doctrine of the Church, although I wish they would explain it better.

For instance what does it meant to adore? Is it the same as worship? How do you reconcile that since Muslims don’t believe Jesus to be God that they can be said to adore the same God as we do? As a Catholic I don’t have a choice to say that I adore God the Father but consider Jesus to be a prophet (not God not Saviour).

I have done some research into this because it bothers me but the TV analogy that you find on some apologetics doesn’t help me to understand. Also the term “God of Abraham” might be appropriate in Abraham’s time or Pre-Messiah but certainly not today.

 

[ringil]

*It is **dogma ***that Catholics and Muslims worship the same God.

Dogma??? Really???
DOGMA. Doctrine taught by the Church to be believed by all the faithful as part of divine revelation. All dogmas, therefore, are formally revealed truths and promulgated as such by the Church. They are revealed either in Scripture or tradition, either explicitly (as the Incarnation) or implicitly (as the Assumption). Moreover, their acceptance by the faithful must be proposed as necessary for salvation. They may be taught by the Church in a solemn manner, as with the definition of the Immaculate Conception, or in an ordinary way, as with the constant teaching on the malice of taking innocent human life. (Etym. Latin dogma; from Greek dogma, declaration, decree.)
So in other words, you are saying that, for the purpose of salvation, I must believe that Muslims worship the same god as Christians? Really???

Please show me where in the Scriptures or where in Sacred Tradition that this originated from…

DOCTRINE THEN

I made it bigger