Cardinal Mahony and the Tridentine mass.

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While I am not happy with Cardinal Mahony’s handling of the sexual abuse cases in his diocese, I agree with him here:
  • “But there is no participation by the people, and I don’t believe that instills the spirit of Christ among us.”*
 
Free_Radical said:
While I am not happy with Cardinal Mahony’s handling of the sexual abuse cases in his diocese, I agree with him here:
  • “But there is no participation by the people, and I don’t believe that instills the spirit of Christ among us.”*
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Every TLM that I have been to was well attended. The Novus Ordo Masses that I have attended seem to lack in reverance and beauty. Just my opinion.
 
I_Believe said:
Exactly my first thought when I read Fr Z’s comments.

I can’t decide the word to use regarding such stupid comments by the Cardinal. Heretic ? Apostate ? Blasphemer ? Schismatic ? Anathema ?

Sheesh, someone call an Exorcist.
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my personal “favorite” is how he and also a poster above claim that there is no vibrant participation of the people in the Mass. The root of the word “vibrant” comes from the word for ‘life’.

I wonder if these same people don’t enjoy a good book or a good film.

I think there are parallels to the way one vibrantly participates in those and in the Mass. Involving your whole, your real self certainly does not involve dancing, singing and talking during a film or a good book, does it?

Not sure if I am expressing myself correctly here, though.
 
Free_Radical said:
While I am not happy with Cardinal Mahony’s handling of the sexual abuse cases in his diocese, I agree with him here:
  • “But there is no participation by the people, and I don’t believe that instills the spirit of Christ among us.”*
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Then you, my friend, are rejecting the decrees of the Council of Trent, as well as the teaching of the only Pope cannonized in the last 450 years. Pope Pius X.

Do you understand the definition of Anathema ? If so, you really should recant that post for the sake of your soul.

How many TLM’s have you attended ?
 
Dicerning said:
Your bio says Location, Earth…but I wonder if you have been on Mars for awhile.

I nearly fell out of my Chair when you mentioned your puzzlement about Mahoney and where he is in relation to is “leanings”.

I am not sure is “leaning” is an adequate term. I would seem to me that Cardianl Mahoney has nobody to his left and the rest of the world to his right. The Magisterium would be considered way way way to his right…even though the Magisterium resides in the center.
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LOL forget leaning left, he’s jumped right off the edge of the cliff and is swimming in the filthy water below…
 
Free_Radical said:
While I am not happy with Cardinal Mahony’s handling of the sexual abuse cases in his diocese, I agree with him here:
  • “But there is no participation by the people, and I don’t believe that instills the spirit of Christ among us.”*
Click to expand...
You’re entitled to your opinion. But know this: Mahoney is wrong. That is without doubt one of the most idiotic statements that I’ve ever seen.

The EF is not specifically for fossils, nor is there “no participation” by the congregation. A person’s prayerful and properly intentioned presence is participation. One doesn’t have to dance in the aisles to participate. It’s one reason why I still hold to the expression “assist” at Mass. We assist. We help. We participate.

Nor, for that matter, and most especially, is the “spirit of Christ” absent. It is Holy Mass, and it is what nourished Ste Thérèse de Lisieux, S Jean Vianney, S Padre Pio, Ste Angela Merici, Ste Elizabeth Seton, etc etc among many many other recognized saints, not to mention millions of saints whose names are unknown. It’s good enough for me.
 
Free_Radical said:
While I am not happy with Cardinal Mahony’s handling of the sexual abuse cases in his diocese, I agree with him here:
  • “But there is no participation by the people, and I don’t believe that instills the spirit of Christ among us.”*
Click to expand...
The TLM has been the Mass of the majority of Catholics for centuries to say that it doesn’t instill the spirit of Christ among us is, is heresy I believe.
 
malphono said:
You’re entitled to your opinion. But know this: Mahoney is wrong. That is without doubt one of the most idiotic statements that I’ve ever seen.

The EF is not specifically for fossils, nor is there “no participation” by the congregation. A person’s prayerful and properly intentioned presence is participation. One doesn’t have to dance in the aisles to participate. ***It’s one reason why I still hold to the expression “assist” at Mass. We assist. We help. We participate. ***
Nor, for that matter, and most especially, is the “spirit of Christ” absent. It is Holy Mass, and it is what nourished Ste Thérèse de Lisieux, S Jean Vianney, S Padre Pio, Ste Angela Merici, Ste Elizabeth Seton, etc etc among many many other recognized saints, not to mention millions of saints whose names are unknown. It’s good enough for me.
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GREAT post Malphono 👍, and I especially agree with the parts I highlighted.

It is in the participation in the total Prayer that the Mass is that I feel that I am right there, at the foot of the Cross on Calvary, most aware of my own personal responsibility of Him Hanging There. In Community with my fellow worshippers, shoulder to shoulder if you will with the Priest as he offers The Sacrifice, and we offer ours.
 
maurin said:
my personal “favorite” is how he and also a poster above claim that there is no vibrant participation of the people in the Mass. The root of the word “vibrant” comes from the word for ‘life’.

I wonder if these same people don’t enjoy a good book or a good film.

I think there are parallels to the way one vibrantly participates in those and in the Mass. Involving your whole, your real self certainly does not involve dancing, singing and talking during a film or a good book, does it?

Not sure if I am expressing myself correctly here, though.
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Quite clear.😉
 
catharina said:
corki, if/when you provide documentation (links) as to such an occurance, then I’ll check those out. Until then, I have to say “No way” to your claim
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You can say no way, but it did happen. Tortillas and tortilla chips were often used by the more progressive among us in Masses that catered to Mexicans, Cardinal Mahoney is nothing if not progressive. The rationale was that the unleavened bread used by Jesus was the staple food of the common people of Judea. Tortillas are the staple food of the common people of Mexico. Thus, tortillas could easily take the place of unleavened bread for these groups as it was more properly the food of the people and would be closer to their life experience in a cultural sense… A misguided attempt at inculturation probably but who really knows.

Hey, you don’t have to believe that these things happened, You can sit back and say they are all the ravings of a bunch of dissatisfied traditionalist knuckledraggers who want to drag the Church back in time.

But, if you take the time to check out Cardinal Mahoney’s history, particularly in the area of the liturgy, I think you will see that he is a long long way from orthodox in any area.
 
catholic101 said:
The TLM has been the Mass of the majority of Catholics for centuries to say that it doesn’t instill the spirit of Christ among us is, is heresy I believe.
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Hmm, what is a manifest heretic ? Doesn’t that entail automatic excommunication ?
 
Free_Radical said:
While I am not happy with Cardinal Mahony’s handling of the sexual abuse cases in his diocese, I agree with him here:
  • “But there is no participation by the people, and I don’t believe that instills the spirit of Christ among us.”*
Click to expand...
Perhaps both you, and Cardinal Mahony might benefit from the understanding of exactly what “active participation” is that was given by Pope John Paul II
Yet active participation does not preclude the active passivity of silence, stillness and listening: indeed, it demands it. Worshippers are not passive, for instance, when listening to the readings or the homily, or following the prayers of the celebrant, and the chants and music of the liturgy. These are experiences of silence and stillness, but they are in their own way profoundly active. In a culture which neither favors nor fosters meditative quiet, the art of interior listening is learned only with difficulty. Here we see how the liturgy, though it must always be properly inculturated, must also be counter-cultural.
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Address to US Bishops - 1998

I would also suggest that both you, and His Emminece read Pope Benedict’s book “The Spirit of the Liturgy”. It goes into great depth on what active participate is, and is not.

Pope Benedict noted that the faithful are most active at the liturgy when they are silent and still, as the participation called for by Vatican II is an internal participation.
 
palmas85 said:
You can say no way, but it did happen. Tortillas and tortilla chips were often used by the more progressive among us in Masses that catered to Mexicans, Cardinal Mahoney is nothing if not progressive. The rationale was that the unleavened bread used by Jesus was the staple food of the common people of Judea. Tortillas are the staple food of the common people of Mexico. Thus, tortillas could easily take the place of unleavened bread for these groups as it was more properly the food of the people and would be closer to their life experience in a cultural sense… A misguided attempt at inculturation probably but who really knows.

Hey, you don’t have to believe that these things happened, You can sit back and say they are all the ravings of a bunch of dissatisfied traditionalist knuckledraggers who want to drag the Church back in time.

But, if you take the time to check out Cardinal Mahoney’s history, particularly in the area of the liturgy, I think you will see that he is a long long way from orthodox in any area.
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You are claiming something happened without offering a shred of documentation. Doing that, making such a claim, can only give rise to scandal - based on unsubstantiated rumor at that.

Give some FACTS or drop it, please.
 
Don’t know if pictures are available with tortilla chips, but there were pictures of the archbishop with what appeared to be a Kool-Aid pitcher on the altar at Taj Mahony, the LA cathedral.
Left leaning? If he leans any farther, he better be right-handed because he might fall and break his other hand.
Watch for a sequel to last year’s skantilly-clad liturgical dancers from this week’s soiree Card. Mahony is sponsoring in the neighboring Diocese of Orange, which is part of the region “overseen” by LA.
LA and Orange dioceses graciously permit limited celebration of the EF in small, out of the way churches or chapels, mostly at times not very convenient for families. One 7 a.m. TLM in OC is just about as far north as you can go and still be in the diocese; and there is no public transportation available. On my visits there, I see a lot of people participating in the dialogue Mass who would not be suffering from nostalgia, because they were born since V2.
Haven’t been to the early Sunday morning TLM at San Juan Capistrano because it is 'way down at the other end of the county, but hear that it is SRO in the small Serra Chapel, rather than in the new basilica church.
 
mystified said:
Don’t know if pictures are available with tortilla chips, but there were pictures of the archbishop with what appeared to be a Kool-Aid pitcher on the altar at Taj Mahony, the LA cathedral.
Left leaning? If he leans any farther, he better be right-handed because he might fall and break his other hand.
Watch for a sequel to last year’s skantilly-clad liturgical dancers from this week’s soiree Card. Mahony is sponsoring in the neighboring Diocese of Orange, which is part of the region “overseen” by LA.
LA and Orange dioceses graciously permit limited celebration of the EF in small, out of the way churches or chapels, mostly at times not very convenient for families. One 7 a.m. TLM in OC is just about as far north as you can go and still be in the diocese; and there is no public transportation available. On my visits there, I see a lot of people participating in the dialogue Mass who would not be suffering from nostalgia, because they were born since V2.
Haven’t been to the early Sunday morning TLM at San Juan Capistrano because it is 'way down at the other end of the county, but hear that it is SRO in the small Serra Chapel, rather than in the new basilica church.
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My point is that if people repeat rumors as facts, without any supporting documentation, they are merely spreading gossip, not the Gospel. Two posters (so far) have said the ‘tortilla event’ happened. Neither has provided a shred of documentaion.
 
mystified said:
…LA and Orange dioceses graciously permit limited celebration of the EF in small, out of the way churches or chapels, mostly at times not very convenient for families.
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Ah yes, one of the hallmarks of of the obstructionist bishop. I’ll bet even the thought of the EF gives them nightmares.
 
malphono said:
Ah yes, one of the hallmarks of of the obstructionist bishop. I’ll bet even the thought of the EF gives them nightmares.
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Amen brother and nightmares THEY ARE HAVING…

The train has left the station, there is no stopping Tradition now. I sense some knees are shaking…
 
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