Cardinal Mahony compares Arizona immigration bill to Nazism, Communism [CWN]

[Worthy5]

=LittleSoldier;6561983]Hi to everyone. I’m making a general announcement in the threads I am participating in. My health has deteriorated to the point where I can no longer participate in the forums.

I apologize for leaving any questions asked of me and points presented to me unanswered.

I do have one request: Please pray for the safety of all unborn children.

Thanks, guys. It’s been wonderful being here and I’ve enjoyed it, learned much, and my faith has been strengthened.

May God bring us all peace…

christina

God bless my friend, you are in our prayers.

 

[gus]

pnewton;6560395:

Not in the least. My interest is in the immigration issue. You note that I also posted the actual section of the law. I wonder how others would feel if they had to carry identification papers with them or be arrested and detain until we can identify ourselves. That is one

element of a totalitarian state, though not exclusive issue.

When I travel outside of the United States I carry my passport with me at all times; I don’t view the countries I visit as totalitarian states even when I am asked to produce identification. I certainly don’t call the lawmakers of those countries Nazis or Communists, they are protecting their borders.

Do legal citizens of those countries you visit have to carry passports.
I don’t think so
The way the Arizona Law is if your Hispanic regardless of How many generations youv’e been in Arizona.(hispanic’s have been here a lot longer than Anglo’s)
You have to carry something like a passport.

 

[gakroeger]

AnotherVoice;6560751:

Do legal citizens of those countries you visit have to carry passports.
I don’t think so
The way the Arizona Law is if your Hispanic regardless of How many generations youv’e been in Arizona.(hispanic’s have been here a lot longer than Anglo’s)
You have to carry something like a passport.

You can bet this is currently the last concern the citizens of Arizona have right now. They are inandated with criminal illegals because the federal government has shirked its responsibility to protect our borders.

Would you (regardless of race, creed, or color) rather have security around insuring that everyone belongs there or be concerned that the person next to you is a criminal apt to initiate his/her next crime.

Read the earlier post of an hispanic living in Arizona.

 

[mlund]

[The way the Arizona Law is if your Hispanic regardless of How many generations youv’e been in Arizona.(hispanic’s have been here a lot longer than Anglo’s)
You have to carry something like a passport.

That’s a pretty broad misrepresentation.
AZ Governor Jan Brewer:

Let me be clear, though: My signature today represents my steadfast support for enforcing the law — both AGAINST illegal immigration AND against racial profiling.

This legislation mirrors federal laws regarding immigration enforcement.

Despite erroneous and misleading statements suggesting otherwise, the new state misdemeanor crime of willful failure to complete or carry an alien registration document is adopted, verbatim, from the same offense found in federal statute.

I will NOT tolerate racial discrimination or racial profiling in Arizona.

Because I feel so strongly on this subject, I worked for weeks with legislators to amend SB 1070, to strengthen its civil rights protections.

That effort led to new language in the bill, language prohibiting law enforcement officers from “solely considering race, color, or national origin in implementing the requirements of this section…”

The bill already required that it “shall be implemented in a manner consistent with federal laws regulating immigration, protecting the civil rights of all persons and respecting the privileges and immunities of United States citizens.”

While the general protection was already included, I believe the issue is so important, we needed to make it CRYSTAL clear.

• Marty Lund
  [/quote]

 

[pnewton]

AnotherVoice;6560751:

Do legal citizens of those countries you visit have to carry passports.
I don’t think so
The way the Arizona Law is if your Hispanic regardless of How many generations youv’e been in Arizona.(hispanic’s have been here a lot longer than Anglo’s)
You have to carry something like a passport.

I am sure there are many countries where one has to be able to identify themselves or carry papers. I guess I can understand those that support this law as long as they themselves would be willing to abide by the same criteria of carrying documentation, or they would be willing to be inconvenienced equally for failure to do so.

 

[AnotherVoice]

gus;6562708:

You can bet this is currently the last concern the citizens of Arizona have right now. They are inandated with criminal illegals because the federal government has shirked its responsibility to protect our borders.

Would you (regardless of race, creed, or color) rather have security around insuring that everyone belongs there or be concerned that the person next to you is a criminal apt to initiate his/her next crime.

Read the earlier post of an hispanic living in Arizona.

You have misquoted me; please see post #76 for what I actually said.

 

[AnotherVoice]

This was my original post, prior to Gakroeger messing with it.

When I travel outside of the United States I carry my passport with me at all times; I don’t view the countries I visit as totalitarian states even when I am asked to produce identification. I certainly don’t call the lawmakers of those countries Nazis or Communists, they are protecting their borders.

In response to your point about carrying and producing identification, personally it doesn’t bother me. I always carry two forms of picture identification now.

 

[gakroeger]

This was my original post, prior to Gakroeger messing with it.

In response to your point about carrying and producing identification, personally it doesn’t bother me. I always carry two forms of picture identification now.

I did not “mess” with your post. Your original post had a messed up quote in it from gus and when I responded to it the system must have gotten confused by the messed up quote.

 

[AnotherVoice]

I did not “mess” with your post. Your original post had a messed up quote in it from gus and when I responded to it the system must have gotten confused by the messed up quote.

My original post, #76, quoted pnewton, and had nothing to due with Gus. If the context of my post had not been changed I would not have brought it up.

 

[gakroeger]

My original post, #76, quoted pnewton, and had nothing to due with Gus. If the context of my post had not been changed I would not have brought it up.

Not in the least. My interest is in the immigration issue. You note that I also posted the actual section of the law. I wonder how others would feel if they had to carry identification papers with them or be arrested and detain until we can identify ourselves. That is one element of a totalitarian state, though not exclusive issue.

When I travel outside of the United States I carry my passport with me at all times; I don’t view the countries I visit as totalitarian states even when I am asked to produce identification. I certainly don’t call the lawmakers of those countries Nazis or Communists, they are protecting their borders.

THIS IS YOUR ORIGINAL POST #76. DO YOU SEE THE quote=pnewton;6560395 at the beginning. This was the problem…

When you posted you erased part of the original control code…

 

[pnewton]

When you posted you erased part of the original control code…

It happens.

My priest actually spoke on immigration at the end of Mass this week. It is an issue that affects a lot of people. This is probably the one issue that separates me from most conservatives, and the only one that I agree with the Cardinal on.

 

[snowpea]

The Church should stay out of politics.

I agree

 

[Malkin71]

Not in the least. My interest is in the immigration issue. You note that I also posted the actual section of the law. I wonder how others would feel if they had to carry identification papers with them or be arrested and detain until we can identify ourselves. That is one element of a totalitarian state, though not exclusive issue.

I understand your point that Cardinal Mahony is also a topic, though not one I am interested in. He is often bashed here. I am no fan of the things that happen in the Diocese of Los Angeles, but I am not comfortable joining in on that part. I am sorry you felt I put you on the defensive. I did not intend to.

You need a valid ID to be served Alochol and tobaccco.

You need a License to drive.

You need Act 33 or 34 clearence to be a volunteer among Children.

What is wrong in to do the right thing and apply and do the proper paperwork?

 

[Malkin71]

Cardinal Roger Mahony of Los Angeles has offered strong criticism of a measure passed by the Arizona legislature that would require police to arrest suspected illegal immigrants who are …

More…

All Cardnials and Bishop should serve on Criminal Jury Duty involving cases where Illegal Immigrints were involved of Murder, Rape, Kidnapping, Theft, Narcotics! I I wonder if their eyes will then see the Truth!

 

[pnewton]

You need a valid ID to be served Alochol and tobaccco.

You need a License to drive.

You need Act 33 or 34 clearence to be a volunteer among Children.

What is wrong in to do the right thing and apply and do the proper paperwork?

Nothing, if it is applied across the board and people are stopped to show their documentation with no regard to skin color. I do not think that is what will happen. I question whether those that support this in Arizona are willing themselves to carry documentation everywhere they go and are willing to go to jail for failure to do so. What is being legislated is that people have identification just for being.

 

[Malkin71]

First off, you responded to the wrong post. “What kind of a thing does this even accomplish?” was directed at a contentless one-liner that wasn’t even really on topic.

If we had a proper immigration policy, like the one that we used to have before the nativists hijacked the system in the 1920’s, we’d be in much better shape.

One party in particular likes to demonize the Rodriguezes as somehow different from the Ippolitos and the O’Haras, to try and gain the votes of the descendants of the Ippolitos and the O’Haras. If there was a way that those folks (or the Cohens, or the Grabowskis, or any group you can imagine) would have been denied access, they would’ve been sneaking in, too.

The long-suffering taxpaying citizens had the good fortune to be born in the United States. They weren’t so desperate for a better life that they snuck though a desert at great risk to themselves to live in poverty that is less desperate than the poverty that they came from.

Sneak into another Country and refuse to learn the Language, violate their laws and see what happens to you?

 

[pnewton]

All Cardnials and Bishop should serve on Criminal Jury Duty involving cases where Illegal Immigrints were involved of Murder, Rape, Kidnapping, Theft, Narcotics! I I wonder if their eyes will then see the Truth!

Actually I do not think most of them would. What you describe is the very meaning of the word “prejudice.” We have a capital murder trial in progress now where the guy is black. Does that mean we should crack down on black people? Most mass murderers have been white. Should white people be given extra restrictions? Priests have commited pedophelia. Should Catholicism be banned? Cops have trampled on civil rights. Never trust a cop?? When we start looking at any group of people in terms of the worst of them, we use a standard we would abhor if used against us.

 

[Malkin71]

The Church *does *have that responsibility. If she didn’t have it, it would be morally permissible to turn a blind eye to immoral laws and policies:

“It is the duty of citizens to work with civil authorities for building up society in a spirit of truth, justice, solidarity, and freedom” [CCC 2255]

"Citizens are obliged in conscience not to follow the directives of civil authorities when they are contrary to the demands of the moral order. “We must obey God rather than man.” [Acts 5:29] [CCC 2256]

"It is a part of the Church’s mission to pass moral judgments even in matters related to politics, whenever the fundamental rights of man or the salvation of souls requires it…" [CCC 2246]

“As far as possible citizens should take an active part in public life.”
[CCC 1915]

Pope Benedict XVI stated:
"The Church wishes to help form consciences in political life and to stimulate greater insight into the authentic requirements of justice as well as greater readiness to act accordingly, even when this might involve conflict with situations of personal interest. . . .The Church cannot and must not take upon herself the political battle to bring about the most just society possible. She cannot and must not replace the State. Yet at the same time** she cannot and must not remain on the sidelines in the fight for justice.**

vatican.va/holy_father/benedict_xvi/encyclicals/documents/hf_ben-xvi_enc_20051225_deus-caritas-est_en.html (28)

Pope John Paul II stated:
Opposition to intrinsically evil acts that undercut the dignity of the human person should also open our eyes to the good we must do, that is, to our positive duty to contribute to the common good and to act in solidarity with those in need.** The fact that only the negative commandments oblige always and under all circumstances does not mean that in the moral life prohibitions are more important than the obligation to do good indicated by the positive commandment. Both opposing evil and doing good are essential obligations.**

vatican.va/holy_father/john_paul_ii/encyclicals/documents/hf_jp-ii_enc_06081993_veritatis-splendor_en.html (52)

The following quotes are from:
usccb.org/faithfulcitizenship/FCStatement.pdf

"The Church equips its members to address political and social questions by helping them to develop a well-formed conscience. Catholics have a serious and lifelong obligation to form their consciences in accord with human reason and the teaching of the Church.

"Catholics may choose different ways to respond to compelling social problems, but we cannot differ on our moral obligation to help build a more just and peaceful world through morally acceptable means, so that the weak and vulnerable are protected and human rights
and dignity are defended.

"There are some things we must never do, as individuals or as a society, because they are always incompatible with love of God and neighbor.** Such actions are so deeply flawed that they are always opposed to the authentic good of persons…They must always be rejected and opposed and must never be supported or condoned.**

"… Racism and other unjust discrimination, the use of the death penalty, resorting to unjust war, the use of torture, war crimes, the failure to respond to those who are suffering from hunger or a lack of health care, or an unjust immigration policy are all serious moral issues that challenge our consciences and require us to act. These are not optional concerns which can be dismissed. Catholics are urged to seriously consider Church teaching on these issues. Although choices about how best to respond to these and other compelling threats to human life and dignity are matters for principled debate and decision, this does not make them optional concerns or permit Catholics to dismiss or ignore Church teaching on these important issues. Clearly not every Catholic can be actively involved on each of these concerns, but we need to support one another as our community of faith defends human life and dignity wherever it is threatened. We are not factions, but one family of faith fulfilling the mission of Jesus Christ.

I don’t know if the CCC states anything about opening “our borders to any and all who want to come across.” But the USCCB does have this to say:

"The Gospel mandate to “welcome the stranger” requires Catholics to care for and stand with immigrants, both documented and undocumented, including immigrant children.

Comprehensive reform is urgently necessary to fix a broken immigration system and should include a temporary work program with worker protections and a path to permanent residency; family reunification policies; a broad and fair legalization program; access to legal protections, including due process and essential public programs; refuge for those fleeing persecution and exploitation; and policies to address the root causes of migration. The right and responsibility of nations to control their borders and to maintain the rule of law should be recognized.

usccb.org/faithfulcitizenship/FCStatement.pdf (83)

Welcoming a stranger and Obeying the laws is two different things.

Can a stranger take advantage and overstay his welcome?

What if a stranger commits a crime?

What happens when a stranger trys to con you?

Illegal Immigration is a Crime under U.S. Cival Code.

 

[Malkin71]

Nothing, if it is applied across the board and people are stopped to show their documentation with no regard to skin color. I do not think that is what will happen. I question whether those that support this in Arizona are willing themselves to carry documentation everywhere they go and are willing to go to jail for failure to do so. What is being legislated is that people have identification just for being.

70% of Az is for this law. The reason why they are being stopped is that they can not speak English! They refuse to learn it!

At my second job I serve alochol for a sports venue. Anyone appears 30 years of age or under I ask to see ID. If you don’t have ID. You will be refused! I heard all excuses from I left the ID in the car to I am a Junior in College. No ID!

 

[Malkin71]

Actually I do not think most of them would. What you describe is the very meaning of the word “prejudice.” We have a capital murder trial in progress now where the guy is black. Does that mean we should crack down on black people? Most mass murderers have been white. Should white people be given extra restrictions? Priests have commited pedophelia. Should Catholicism be banned? Cops have trampled on civil rights. Never trust a cop?? When we start looking at any group of people in terms of the worst of them, we use a standard we would abhor if used against us.

Ours here in Pittsburgh Did! He sat on a criminal case. He mentioned that it opened his eyes to the matter!

Illegals are not Citizens of the U.S.

Take a look at the Crimes Statistics in the U.S.