Cardinal Marx: Church should see positive aspects of homosexual relationships [CWN]

[TCEL]

Indeed, now, what are the things to say yes to?

Well, in my case, the attraction to Church teaching began to click when Dr. Scott Hahn underlined the difference between contract and covenant, and when I read Dr. Feser’s The Last Superstition and realized just how important sacramental epistemology is, and how far removed our modern mindset is from that. Then, learning about the connection between Christ as Bridegroom and Church as bride, and how the sacraments are an outpouring of that life-giving dynamic. Or, after I was married and heard the Priest say during the Consecration, “This is my body, given up for you.” That was a two-by-four. Christ bodily gave himself, and life sprang forth. Couples give themselves, and literally life springs forth. God loves life.

These are truths we need to learn to incorporate into the “no’s” we proclaim.

 

[JosieN]

"Sex is the only thing that matters to God. " That was what was said. That phrase is what Blue is referring to.
Do you think sex is the only thing that matters to God?

It is not sex that is sinful, it was created for a purpose, by our Creator. It becomes a sin when procreation is not part of it.

What matters to God is the soul. Sins destroy the soul. The Son of God, Jesus Christ, was revealed to destroy the work of the devil. The devil’s work is to destroy the soul by encouraging us to become sinners and lead sinful lives.

1 John

Chapter 3, verses 7-9

“Children, let no one deceive you. The person who acts in righteousness is righteous, just as he is righteous. Whoever sins belongs to the devil, because the devil has sinned from the beginning. Indeed, the Son of God was revealed to destroy the works of the devil.”

Ephesians

Chapter 5, Verse 6-7

"Let no one deceive you with empty arguments, for because of these things the wrath of God is coming upon the disobedient. So do not be associated with them.

Verse 17

“Therefore, do not continue in ignorance, but try to understand what is the will of the Lord.”

 

[JosieN]

That’s an even greater reason to separate the sin from the sinner. A mortal sin requires full knowledge of the matters sinfulness. Personally I think that disbelief is a form of ignorance. You don’t choose to believe in things and you can’t expect people to pretend to believe. As far as we know they haven’t “seen the light” yet. Assuming they “saw the light” and rejected it is not very charitable.

If they were interested in following Christ, they could buy a Bible or attend a church service, talk to a priest etc., also, there are many good books on the internet that would lead them to salvation.

If they have not “seen the light” yet, those of us who have should help them. We should not encourage them with the kind of charity that will lead them to continue on the wrong path.

 

[J_Peterson]

If they were interested in following Christ, they could buy a Bible or attend a church service, talk to a priest etc., also, there are many good books on the internet that would lead them to salvation.

If they have not “seen the light” yet, those of us who have should help them. We should not encourage them with the kind of charity that will lead them to continue on the wrong path.

As an ex-Atheist I can tell you that that doesn’t work. Only God can convert another person. Try and make yourself believe that Hinduism is correct, or try and make yourself believe that there is an alien moon base on the dark side of the moon. You can’t make yourself believe anything without “seeing” it or being provided with evidence. God is the Light and only God can provide evidence of God. Our job is to be good Christians, not beat other’s over the head with our beliefs. Are we afraid that people won’t be attracted to Christianity without us taking charge and attempting to control the situation?

 

[JosieN]

As an ex-Atheist I can tell you that that doesn’t work. Only God can convert another person. Try and make yourself believe that Hinduism is correct, or try and make yourself believe that there is an alien moon base on the dark side of the moon. You can’t make yourself believe anything without “seeing” it or being provided with evidence. God is the Light and only God can provide evidence of God. Our job is to be good Christians, not beat other’s over the head with our beliefs. Are we afraid that people won’t be attracted to Christianity without us taking charge and attempting to control the situation?

You make a good point. I never really thought of it like that before. I will pray for the conversion of sinners, and leave the rest to God. I do not want to beat anyone over the head with my beliefs, but if someone argues against my belief I feel a duty to defend it. There is way too much confusion in the media and even in the Churches, not to defend it. I think God expects us to defend our beliefs, along with saying prayers for the salvation of souls.

 

[philipl]

I don’t think the Church teaches this. Pre-marital sex may be always wrong in every circumstance but the people that have pre-marital sex can still do good. I can’t imagine why sex nullifies everything else the person does in their life.

Correct me if I’m wrong but you seem to be equating the sinner with the sin.

ANY sex outside of marriage is a mortal sin. If a person is a wonderful person, but is cheating on their spouse and dies without changing their ways, they may very well go to hell. God doesn’t say, we’ll all this good out weights the mortal sin. He says, too bad you have earned a place in hell.

 

[Joie_de_Vivre]

Well, in my case, the attraction to Church teaching began to click when Dr. Scott Hahn underlined the difference between contract and covenant, and when I read Dr. Feser’s The Last Superstition and realized just how important sacramental epistemology is, and how far removed our modern mindset is from that. Then, learning about the connection between Christ as Bridegroom and Church as bride, and how the sacraments are an outpouring of that life-giving dynamic. Or, after I was married and heard the Priest say during the Consecration, “This is my body, given up for you.” That was a two-by-four. Christ bodily gave himself, and life sprang forth. Couples give themselves, and literally life springs forth. God loves life.

These are truths we need to learn to incorporate into the “no’s” we proclaim.

So, what is there for LGBT people to say yes to?

Have people considered that when LGBT people have been hurt in the name of religion that telling them all about how homosexuality is an abomination that cries out to heaven for vengeance is only going to repel the LGBT people? Do people really believe that behaving like insufferably pretentious Pharisees is what God wants?

 

[JosieN]

So, what is there for LGBT people to say yes to?

Have people considered that when LGBT people have been hurt in the name of religion that telling them all about how homosexuality is an abomination that cries out to heaven for vengeance is only going to repel the LGBT people? Do people really believe that behaving like insufferably pretentious Pharisees is what God wants?

Those who remain disobedient are at risk of losing their soul. Do you think they should know the truth or do you think they should be told not to worry as God does not want us to act like pretentious Pharisees? Can you imagine where Christianity would be today if the disciples of Christ thought like you? Then like now, there were those who believed the lies of the spirit at work in the disobedient, but they continued their work and went out and risked their lives to preach the Gospel so souls would be saved.

Ephesians

Chapter 2, verses 1-5

"You were dead in your transgressions and sins in which you once lived following the age of this world, following the ruler of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the disobedient. All of us once lived among them in the desires of the flesh, following the wishes of the flesh and the impulses, and we were by nature children of wrath, like the rest. But God, who is rich in mercy, because of the great love He had for us , even when we were dead in our transgressions, brought us to life with Christ (by grace you have been saved).

 

[Blue_Horizon]

ANY sex outside of marriage is a mortal sin.

This is not really an accurate summary of Church Teaching PL.
Look up the Catechism’s definition of “mortal sin” and see for yourself please.

 

[Blue_Horizon]

Those who remain disobedient are at risk of losing their soul.

The obedient are also at risk of losing their souls too JN.
Take the Story of the Older Brother for example.

We are not saved by obedience to the law alone.

 

[JosieN]

The obedient are also at risk of losing their souls too JN.
Take the Story of the Older Brother for example.

We are not saved by obedience to the law alone.

Do you mean the Story of the Lost Son? The older brother was disobedient and was lost in sin, but came back to his father and asked for forgiveness. He realized what he did was wrong. I do not think his father would have been so forgiving if he had not shown regret for what he had done. If there is no regret, there is no repentance.

Where does it say in that story that the obedient are also at risk of losing their soul? The story is about repentance and forgiveness. I agree you are not saved by obedience to the law alone, you are saved by Jesus Christ. That is why He came into this world.

 

[OraLabora]

Do you mean the Story of the Lost Son? The older brother was disobedient and was lost in sin, but came back to his father and asked for forgiveness. He realized what he did was wrong. I do not think his father would have been so forgiving if he had not shown regret for what he had done. If there is no regret, there is no repentance.

Where does it say in that story that the obedient are also at risk of losing their soul? The story is about repentance and forgiveness. I agree you are not saved by obedience to the law alone, you are saved by Jesus Christ. That is why He came into this world.

You missed the point. The other son was 100% obedient but was hard of heart and jealous towards his repentant brother. Do you think that kind of obedience is salvific?

 

[Joie_de_Vivre]

Those who remain disobedient are at risk of losing their soul. Do you think they should know the truth or do you think they should be told not to worry as God does not want us to act like pretentious Pharisees? Can you imagine where Christianity would be today if the disciples of Christ thought like you? Then like now, there were those who believed the lies of the spirit at work in the disobedient, but they continued their work and went out and risked their lives to preach the Gospel so souls would be saved.

Ephesians

Chapter 2, verses 1-5

"You were dead in your transgressions and sins in which you once lived following the age of this world, following the ruler of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the disobedient. All of us once lived among them in the desires of the flesh, following the wishes of the flesh and the impulses, and we were by nature children of wrath, like the rest. But God, who is rich in mercy, because of the great love He had for us , even when we were dead in our transgressions, brought us to life with Christ (by grace you have been saved).

Christianity spread by love, not legalism or alienating people. Christianity spread because it love and took care of the poor, the sick, the widowed, it fed the hungry and clothed those in tatters, it offered hope and community. Deus Caritas Est. We need to bear true and positive witness.

 

[OraLabora]

Christianity spread by love, not legalism or alienating people. Christianity spread because it love and took care of the poor, the sick, the widowed, it fed the hungry and clothed those in tatters, it offered hope and community. Deus Caritas Est. We need to bear true and positive witness.

And doing all those things without demanding proof of being a Catholic in good standing in a state of grace in those we help.

 

[MaryT777]

And doing all those things without demanding proof of being a Catholic in good standing in a state of grace in those we help.

Amen.

 

[JosieN]

You missed the point. The other son was 100% obedient but was hard of heart and jealous towards his repentant brother. Do you think that kind of obedience is salvific?

It appeared unfair to him until the wise father pointed out to him that all he has of the inheritance is still his. After that we cannot know what happened. I cannot answer that question because if his heart was changed by his father, he could have seen his hard heartedness and asked for forgiveness and we do not know how this story ended for the oldest son.

 

[JB_Brother_4446]

Perhaps we are offensive because we are offensive - and our take on truth has speed wobbles.We are called to be merciful (todays readings), loving and humble, and maybe the untrained lay “priests” amongst us at times fly too close to the sun.

It takes real mercy to speak the truth. One can’t enter Heaven without courage.

 

[JB_Brother_4446]

Christianity spread by love, not legalism or alienating people. Christianity spread because it love and took care of the poor, the sick, the widowed, it fed the hungry and clothed those in tatters, it offered hope and community. Deus Caritas Est. We need to bear true and positive witness.

We have a duty to say the truth.

 

[JosieN]

Christianity spread by love, not legalism or alienating people. Christianity spread because it love and took care of the poor, the sick, the widowed, it fed the hungry and clothed those in tatters, it offered hope and community. Deus Caritas Est. We need to bear true and positive witness.

It is true, we need to be true and positive witnesses, but we must also be aware of the works of darkness.

**Romans 13:11-14
**
“And do this because you know the time; it is the hour now for you to wake from sleep. For our salvation is nearer now than when we first believed; the night is advanced, the day is at hand. Let us then throw off the works of darkness and put on the armor of light; let us conduct ourselves properly as in the day, not in orgies and drunkenness, not in promiscuity and licentiousness, not in rivalry and jealousy. But put on the Lord Jesus Christ, and make no provision for the desires of the flesh.”

 

[Don_Ruggero]

It may very well be a small part to them, but to God it’s the only thing that matters. Sex outside of marriage is a mortal sin. There is no exceptions. Since marriage can only be between a man and a woman, gay couples can not be married.

Couples living together are also guilty of a mortal sin, that is if they are sexual active.

Same thing with remarried catholics that havent been through the annulment process if required.

[Sex] may very well be a small part to them, but to God it’s the only thing that matters.
As a theologian who lectured for many years in the field of moral theology, I do not hesitate at all to state the following:

The part I have bolded and underlined above is utterly indefensible from the perspective of moral theology.

IF the author had qualifed and nuanced his formulation, there would be the possibility of a theological dialogue. He did not. The analytical assessment can only be then upon what the author actually wrote. That is how theology and theological analysis actually works.

To be clear, the formulation, as it was written, is saying that the only thing that is of consequence is the morality of the sexual act.

The only real basis for making an analysis of a person’s thesis is what they themselves formulate. This thesis thus fails.