Cardinal Marx: Church should see positive aspects of homosexual relationships [CWN]

[PRmerger]

It’s all in the CCC. Start reading around 1735. Culpability is fairly straight forward and means being imputable or responsible for one’s free choices by God and receiving punishment or reward accordingly. God is not a Policeman or Customs officer who punishes people for deeds done regardless of intent or control.

You won’t find the phrase “mortal sin” in the Bible either. In any case only Protestants look to the Bible alone for such teachings. Catholics also look to the Magisterium.

-] The issue here is not grave sin (ie grave matter) but mortal sin./-]

The issue is that older brother types try to label certain groups of people as outside of God’s grace when they may not be, simply on the basis of bad outward deeds. This is a travesty of Jesus’s teaching.

Everything here, very Catholic!

One tweak: Catholics look to Sacred Scripture and Sacred Tradition as 2 channels of revelation.

Not everything that the Magisterium says is considered to be part of revelation.

 

[Blue_Horizon]

Careful, Blue.

It’s good for you to be here and in dialogue with knowledgeable Catholics.

So I’d be a little bit more judicious and cautious about how you present your arguments and challenges.

At any rate, I will offer the proof after you do the same.

Otherwise, it would be irresponsible of you to demand a standard for a CAF poster which you yourself cannot keep.

So can you offer the Magisterial source that declares, as you have asserted: “[W]e never see a mortal sin, we only see someone engaging in grave matter.”

And please answer why my source must be 50 years old or younger.

Careful PRM, if you want your mere personal assertions to be taken seriously you need to step up to the plate re explicit Magisterial sources.
You still haven’t done so, so there’s nothing more to say on this matter.

BTW, you may not be aware it’s not always helpful to parade on someone else’s parade when politely challenged.

 

[graciew]

No, it is “Of Christian Love” with Deus Caritas Est translating as God is Love (which is not be misunderstood as Love is God).

Yes,ok God is Love,that was the title : Deus Caritas est.
Heart and mission of the Church.
Just referring to a smaller headline on the book, " the mission is to love". So there is a mission.

 

[mlz]

How much more insane will it get before Our Lord finally says, "Enough!!?

It’s coming… and we shouldn’t be surprised. Look at prophecy- Our Lady of Good Success and Our Lady of Akita.( not to mention countless more) Chastisement is starting.
Pray( especially the Rosary!) , fast and offer reparation for these offences. Take shelter in the Immaculate Heart of our Blessed Mother and consecrate yourself to her as soon as possible if you haven’t.
In His love,
mlz

 

[Blue_Horizon]

Yes, of course, there are degrees of sin. We distinguish mortal from venial sin. All sin has bad consequences. And nobody is perfect, so bad consequences are always with us. But when wrong is not recognized as wrong, or worse, is promoted as a good, the consequences for society are more serious. Children–and adults–can recognize right from wrong long before they learn the nuances of moral theology and culpability. We teach them right from wrong, and ought to do the same for adults as well. I think that catechesis has perhaps been somewhat lacking in that basic task in recent decades.

Unfortunately some who should know better not only say that all homosexuals and those in irregular marriages not only do wrong things but are dead to God as well.
This notion is deeply mistaken.

 

[mlz]

How much more insane will it get before Our Lord finally says, "Enough!!?

It’s coming… and we shouldn’t be surprised. Look at prophecy- Our Lady of Good Success and Our Lady of Akita.( not to mention countless more) Chastisement is starting.
Pray( especially the Rosary!) , fast and offer reparation for these offences. Take shelter in the Immaculate Heart of our Blessed Mother and consecrate yourself to her as soon as possible if you haven’t.
In His love,
mlz

 

[PRmerger]

Careful PRM, if you want your mere personal assertions to be taken seriously you need to step up to the plate re explicit Magisterial sources.
You still haven’t done so, so there’s nothing more to say on this matter

I will after you do.

Otherwise, it appears that you are reserving for yourself what you object to in others.

“I get to cite things as Catholic even though there’s no magisterial source for my assertions, but others can’t do that.”

To wit:

But we never see a mortal sin, we only see someone engaging in grave matter.

#notaCatholicteaching

BTW, you may not be aware it’s not always helpful to parade on someone else’s parade when politely challenged.

I have no idea what this means.

 

[PRmerger]

Unfortunately some who should know better not only say that all homosexuals and those in irregular marriages not only do wrong things but are dead to God as well.
This notion is deeply mistaken.

This, too, is very Catholic.

It sounds as if you’ve been hanging around with some radical traditionalist Catholics.

I do hope that you are able to evangelize them back to a correct theology.

That would be time well spent, Blue! You would be a great asset to the Church in these dialogues!

 

[graciew]

Note: I do not usually read todayscatholicworld.com, it is very radical, but today I wanted to share this well known saints sermon to reveal the seriousness of sin. When you search for something on the internet sometimes you never know where it came from until you have posted it. My apologies if the source offended anyone.

Here,Josie. And I also apologize cause it is a sonet translated from Spanish.( I turned it into…not a sonet!) My grandad taught it to me,among my first prayers.

It does not move me, Lord,to love You,Heaven You have promised to us,nor does the so feared Hell move me, to cease for that reason to offend You.
You move me ,Lord, moves me to see You nailed to that Cross and derided …it moved me to see Your body so much wounded, all that humilliation and Your death.
Your love moves me ,Lord ,and in such a way
That if there were no Heaven I would love You,
And if there were no Hell,I would fear You.
You do not have to give me just because I love You,
Cause even if what I am waiting for,I would not wait for,
I would love You just as I love You.all the same.Amen.

 

[Blue_Horizon]

“…conditions of culpability for mortal sin…"
…

I think you mean conditions of culpability for grave matter (or disordered deeds).

To say what you say above is like wondering if a murderer might be innocent. The very definition rules out the possibility. Those who commit mortal sin by definition have full culpability, no its, no buts.

But whether the disordered deed we see is rightly called “mortally sinful” … that’s a whole different matter and at best can only be tentatively inferred.

 

[JosieN]

It’s all in the CCC. Start reading around 1735. Culpability is fairly straight forward and means being imputable or responsible for one’s free choices by God and receiving punishment or reward accordingly. God is not a Policeman or Customs officer who punishes people for deeds done regardless of intent or control.

You won’t find the phrase “mortal sin” in the Bible either. In any case only Protestants look to the Bible alone for such teachings. Catholics also look to the Magisterium.

**The issue here is not grave sin (ie grave matter) but mortal sin.
**

The issue is that older brother types try to label certain groups of people as outside of God’s grace when they may not be, simply on the basis of bad outward deeds. This is a travesty of Jesus’s teaching.

I looked up mortal sin and grave matter to get a better understanding of them. It appears the sin of impurity against nature (homosexuality) not only offends God, but cries to heaven for vengeance.

What kinds of offenses against God constitute “grave matter”?

In the Bible, St. Paul gives us a list of grave sins. He states that anyone who commits these sins shall not enter the kingdom of God. "Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God" (Galatians 5:19-20). Paul also tells the Corinthians, "know you no that the unjust shall not possess the kingdom of God? Do not err: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, Nor the effeminate, nor liers with mankind, nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards nor railers, nor extortioners shall possess the kingdom of God" (1 Corinthians 6:9-10). These sins constitute grave matter, and if they are committed willingly and with full consent, constitute mortal sin.

The Church also tells us that the sins of anger, blasphemy, envy, hatred, malice, murder, neglect of Sunday obligation, sins against faith (incredulity against God or heresy), sins against hope (obstinate despair in the hope for salvation and/or presumption that oneself can live without God or be saved by one’s own power) and sins against love (indifference towards charity, ingratitude, and/or hatred of God) also constitute grave matter. This list of grave sins, is based on Jesus Christ’s interpretation of the gravity of the Ten Commandments. Grave sins can be classed as sins against God, neighbor and self, and can further be divided into carnal and spiritual sins (CCC 1853).

Four other sins are considered grave also. These sins not only offend God, but men as well. **Thus these four sins are called "the sins that cry to heaven for vengeance" and are likewise mortal sins. These grave sins are:

**•The voluntary murder (Genesis 4:10)
•**The sin of impurity against nature –Sodomy and homosexual relations (Genesis 18:20)
**•Taking advantage of the poor (Exodus 2:23)
•Defrauding the workingman of his wages (James 5:4)

Finally, the capital sins are also considered grave matter. These sins are vices and are defined as contrary to the Christian virtues of holiness. They are pride, avarice, envy, wrath, lust, gluttony, and sloth (acedia).

saintaquinas.com/mortal_sin.html

Does no one believe these things anymore?

 

[Blue_Horizon]

I looked up mortal sin and grave matter to get a better understanding of them. It appears the sin of impurity against nature (homosexuality) not only offends God, but cries to heaven for vengeance.

saintaquinas.com/mortal_sin.html

“These sins constitute grave matter, and if they are committed willingly and with full consent, constitute mortal sin” is what he said best.

Josie may I ask why you prefer to be educated in your faith by an unknown, untrained layman on the Net rather than perhaps spending some time slowly reading, reflecting on and digesting the current Catechism of the Catholic Church?

 

[JosieN]

“These sins constitute grave matter, and if they are committed willingly and with full consent, constitute mortal sin” is what he said best.

Josie may I ask why you prefer to be educated in your faith by an unknown, untrained layman on the Net rather than perhaps spending some time slowly reading, reflecting on and digesting the current Catechism of the Catholic Church?

I do look through the current one I own, but I have not read it completely. I suppose the internet is an easier way to find answers that I am looking for and that is why I choose it when I looking up grave matter and mortal sin. It is also easy to copy and paste from it. I saw nothing wrong in what was on the website I chose, so I saw no harm in posting it. If you see any errors on it, you can point them out to me if you choose to do so.

I bought a second Catechism recently, it should arrive in the mail soon. It is called The Catechism Explained. It is over 700 pages and has stories from the saints lives and things they said. I will take your advice and read through it and educate my faith better using a trusted Catholic source.

 

[OraLabora]

“The Church’s current teaching? Has the Church’s teaching on sin and culpability changed? As far as I can see, the conditions for culpability for mortal sin have not changed, but remain the same as ever. Has grave matter changed? Is what once was grave matter no longer grave matter? Have some sins been marked down from major to minor? Have some been marked up from minor to major? If so, I was unaware of it. Does the Church no longer teach that some actions are objectively wrong?

Then why the need to go back in time to try to blur the line between grave mater and mortal culpability?

That would seem to suggest that some here find something deficient in the way the Church currently expresses herself and want to assume that all grave matter is somehow mortally capable as well.

All the Church has done, is try to make a clear distinction between the gravity of the matter and mortal culpability by using more precise terminology.

It seems to me the current Catechism explains sin and culpability for it rather well using precise terms that mean what they say.

 

[zz912]

But we never see a mortal sin, we only see someone engaging in grave matter.
Someone may regularly engage in grave matter and for various reasons still be well within God’s loving arms.

This is a dangerous way to phrase this. Someone committing grave sins may not have the eternal guilt of those sins reckoned against them, but they are committing grave offenses in the eyes of God. Grave offenses that somehow** IF** they are saved in spite of those sinful actions, they will still spend much time and suffering in Purgatory for them.

 

[zz912]

Your parents gave you correct worldly wisdom … but eternal wisdom it seems not so much.

What a stunningly rude and condescending comment. You should be ashamed of yourself. You owe him an immediate apology.

 

[zz912]

The Church opposes gay marriage because it is against divine revelation, i.e., the word of God, Sacred Scripture; the institution of marriage which is from God - “God created man in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them” (Gen. 1: 27; cf. also Gen. 2:24); and the natural law and natural reason. God instituted marriage as between one man and one woman and it is obvious that only a man and a woman can produce offspring naturally.

 

[zz912]

You won’t find the phrase “mortal sin” in the Bible either. In any case only Protestants look to the Bible alone for such teachings. Catholics also look to the Magisterium.

1 John:16 If you see your brother or sister committing what is not a mortal sin, you will ask, and God will give life to such a one—to those whose** sin is not mortal**. There is sin that is mortal; I do not say that you should pray about that. 17 All wrongdoing is sin, but** there is sin that is not mortal**.

 

[JimG]

Then why the need to go back in time to try to blur the line between grave mater and mortal culpability?

That would seem to suggest that some here find something deficient in the way the Church currently expresses herself and want to assume that all grave matter is somehow mortally capable as well.

All the Church has done, is try to make a clear distinction between the gravity of the matter and mortal culpability by using more precise terminology.

It seems to me the current Catechism explains sin and culpability for it rather well using precise terms that mean what they say.

It is not my intent to blur the line between grave matter and mortal culpability. They are distinct issues. Rather, I worry that excess concentration on the aspect of culpability may have the unintended effect of blurring the fact of grave matter, which can and ought to be recognized in and of itself. If one does not first recognize a wrong, culpability doesn’t much matter. There first must be a recognition of right and wrong in order to apply the notion of culpability to those actions which are wrong. I do assuredly wish to retain the distinction between what is objectively wrong and what a person’s culpability may be in any particular case.

 

[Blue_Horizon]

Then why the need to go back in time to try to blur the line between grave mater and mortal culpability?

That would seem to suggest that some here find something deficient in the way the Church currently expresses herself and want to assume that all grave matter is somehow mortally capable as well.

All the Church has done, is try to make a clear distinction between the gravity of the matter and mortal culpability by using more precise terminology.

It seems to me the current Catechism explains sin and culpability for it rather well using precise terms that mean what they say.