Cardinal McCarrick & King Abdullah

[JSmitty2005]

Maybe I would get more respect if I took my birth year out of my profile.

 

[fkpl]

Vincent N:

Wrong. Allah, when spoken to an English audience means the God of Islam. When spoken to an Arabic-speaking Jordanian audience, it simply means God.

When an English speaker uses Allah to an English audience it is probably taken to mean the unitarian Supreme Being professed by Islam. When an English-speaking Catholic cleric uses the term in public, perhaps even invoking the deity, his subjective intent is likely to be misunderstood by Muslims–no matter their linguistic skills. If he used the locution “Allah, God the Father” he would have avoided any such possible misapprehension.

Given the difference in relations between Catholics and Judaism, on the one hand, and Catholics and Islam, on the other, I think the use of Allah creates potential problems that the use of the term “God of Abraham and Issac” does not.

You obviously infer something quite different than I do in this situation. The mere fact that this disagreement exists, however, proves the point about the laxity of the Cardinal’s usage.

Lastly, I am not the moderator here but I think it might be helpful to advise you that your tone is virtually ad hominem. Try to avoid the personalities and you’ll engender more serious consideration of what you have to say.

Allah, the most merciful, bless you.

 

[mlchance]

JSmitty2005:

Maybe I would get more respect if I took my birth year out of my profile.

Nope. Intead, you’d do better to take the pride and presumption out of your words, and to stop linking to sites that proclaim the late John Paul II is an “antiChrist” who has “worshiped goddess earth after the fashion of Muslim men in prayer, kneeling with his face to the ground.”

– Mark L. Chance.

 

[JSmitty2005]

mlchance:

Nope. Intead, you’d do better to take the pride and presumption out of your words, and to stop linking to sites that proclaim the late John Paul II is an “antiChrist” who has “worshiped goddess earth after the fashion of Muslim men in prayer, kneeling with his face to the ground.”

– Mark L. Chance.

The only pride or presumption in my words was directly paralleled to that in yours. I told you how I feel about JP2, so I obviously don’t agree with what the site had to say about him. The issue here is McCarrick’s use of “Allah,” so let’s drop the personal attacks.

 

[mlchance]

JSmitty2005:

I told you how I feel about JP2…

Yes, you did:

JSmitty2005:

I’m sure there were many saints and martyrs rolling over in their tombs when they heard that! (just like they were when JPII kissed the Koran!)

Which sort of makes your next claim disengenuous at best:

JSmitty2005:

…so I obviously don’t agree with what the site had to say about him.

Now onward:

JSmitty2005:

The issue here is McCarrick’s use of “Allah,”

That might your smoke screen to cover the real issue, which is this: You presuming to be able to judge Cardinal McCarrick. To quote you right back at you:

What gives you the right to accuse anyone of not being or behaving like a faithful Catholic?

JSmitty2005:

…so let’s drop the personal attacks.

This thread itself started as a personal attack on both Cardinal McCarrick and John Paul II.

– Mark L. Chance.

 

[JSmitty2005]

mlchance:

Quote:
Originally Posted by JSmitty2005
I told you how I feel about JP2…

Yes, you did:

Quote:
Originally Posted by JSmitty2005
I’m sure there were many saints and martyrs rolling over in their tombs when they heard that! (just like they were when JPII kissed the Koran!)

Which sort of makes your next claim disengenuous at best:

Quote:
Originally Posted by JSmitty2005
…so I obviously don’t agree with what the site had to say about him.

Now onward:

Quote:
Originally Posted by JSmitty2005
The issue here is McCarrick’s use of “Allah,”

That might your smoke screen to cover the real issue, which is this: You presuming to be able to judge Cardinal McCarrick.
To quote you right back at you:

Quote:
Originally Posted by JSmitty2005
What gives you the right to accuse anyone of not being or behaving like a faithful Catholic?

Quote:
Originally Posted by JSmitty2005
…so let’s drop the personal attacks.

This thread itself started as a personal attack on both Cardinal McCarrick and John Paul II.

– Mark L. Chance.

From the bottom up - the thread was not intended to be a personal attack on McCarrick or JP2. It was intended to find out how others feel about McCarrick’s questionable use of the word “Allah.” Yes, I suppose you could say that this is a judgement, but it’s only judging his actions, not his heart. Likewise with JP2. I do believe that many saints and martyrs that fell to the scimitar of the Mohammedians were disappointed (to say the least) when the pope kissed this unholy book. That, however, does not in any way imply that I think he worships goddess earth or is the antichrist. So, I’m gonna take the high road and drop this childish nonsense.

 

[mlchance]

JSmitty2005:

From the bottom up - the thread was not intended to be a personal attack on McCarrick or JP2.

But that hasn’t stopped you from including personal attacks against both men.

JSmitty2005:

Likewise with JP2. I do believe that many saints and martyrs that fell to the scimitar of the Mohomedians were disappointed (to say the least) when the pope kissed this unholy book. That, however, does not in any way imply that I think he worships goddess earth or is the antichrist.

But that hasn’t stopped you from posting a link to a site which makes those very claims.

Today’s fallacy: Special Pleading.

– Mark L. Chance.

 

[Walt_Oliver]

Please stick with the thread topic and examine your posts for charity before submitting. This applies to public figures as well as to other posters. Thanks.

 

[Vincent_N]

JSmitty2005:

This is the problem and why, in the words of fkpl, what he said “goes way beyond the bounds of proper ecumenical expression and can create great uncertainty and error, whether or not intended.” He was speaking at Catholic University of America. He wasn’t in Jordan. Why would he translate that one word to Arabic and not his entire statement?..False ecumenism.

Your Majesty’s call and that of the Holy Father are in so many ways the same. May Allah, the merciful and compassionate, continue to guide your steps along this noble path. May He guide and protect you, your family and** your beloved country** and may peace and justice come to all lands and all peoples through your efforts, your vision and your courage.

Wherever he was speaking, he was addressing King Abdullah II.

fkpl:

When an English speaker uses Allah to an English audience it is probably taken to mean the unitarian Supreme Being professed by Islam. When an English-speaking Catholic cleric uses the term in public, perhaps even invoking the deity, his subjective intent is likely to be misunderstood by Muslims–no matter their linguistic skills. If he used the locution “Allah, God the Father” he would have avoided any such possible misapprehension…

Completely irrelevent since he was again, addressing King Abdullah II. “Allah, God the Father” is simply wrong. It’s an awkward non-existent expression.

fkpl:

Given the difference in relations between Catholics and Judaism, on the one hand, and Catholics and Islam, on the other, I think the use of Allah creates potential problems that the use of the term “God of Abraham and Issac” does not.

You may have a point here. The expression would still be awkward and given the fact that he was addressing King Abdullah II in particular, “Allah” is both more eloquent and endearing and no less understandable.

fkpl:

You obviously infer something quite different than I do in this situation. The mere fact that this disagreement exists, however, proves the point about the laxity of the Cardinal’s usage.

1. I have refuted your claim.
2. Just because you are willing to pick a nit does not mean there is something wrong with what the Cdl said.
3. You are jumping to conclusions.

fkpl:

Lastly, I am not the moderator here but I think it might be helpful to advise you that your tone is virtually ad hominem. Try to avoid the personalities and you’ll engender more serious consideration of what you have to say…

dictionary.reference.com/search?q=tone

There are many types of tones. There’s no such thing as an ad hominem tone. I can’t define what a virtual ad hominem tone is although it you no doubt intended a perjorative quality judgement of my writing style. What you have commited here is an ad hominem argumentum. Try not to do this as it is simply against the rules of this forum. So as you wrote your last line, please, heed your own advice!

fkpl:

Allah, the most merciful, bless you.

Mocking, nonsensical. You and I are neither Arab nor Muslim.

God Bless!

 

[JSmitty2005]

The Cardinal was addressing the King AND Americans at Catholic U. His entire speech was in English, so why the need to translate only “God” to Arabic? No good reason that I can think of.

 

[Vincent_N]

JSmitty2005:

The Cardinal was addressing the King AND Americans at Catholic U. His entire speech was in English, so why the need to translate only “God” to Arabic? No good reason that I can think of.

In that section, he was NOT addressing anyone, EXCEPT for the King.

And the answer to your question is obvious: It may be the only word he knows in Arabic.

OR

It may be the only Arabic word he is capable of mixing into his english speech.

This is not at all uncommon as anyone who speaks multiple languages(as I and my wife do) have experienced with people, for various laudable reasons, awkwardly mixing in words from their native language with the common tongue, can tell you.

In fact, I do this with my wife all the time. So there.

 

[JSmitty2005]

Vincent N:

This is not at all uncommon as anyone who speaks multiple languages(as I and my wife do) have experienced with people, for various laudable reasons, awkwardly mixing in words from their native language with the common tongue, can tell you.

In fact, I do this with my wife all the time. So there.

This wasn’t just conversational talk though. This was a speech. If he wanted to speak in Arabic, he could have had it translated. If he wanted to speak in English, he should have said, “God.” But if he wanted to bend over backwards in a borderline ecumenical gesture, he could have given the whole speech in English and only changed one word - Allah - and this is what he chose to do. So there.

 

[Vincent_N]

JSmitty2005:

No good reason that I can think of.

I have given you reasons. You are still not able to refute these reasons.

JSmitty2005:

But if he wanted to bend over backwards in a borderline ecumenical gesture, he could have given the whole speech in English and only changed one word - Allah - and this is what he chose to do. So there.

Just another baseless assertion based on personal feelings. Since you choose to associate the arabic word for “God” with something sinister, and you choose to ignore all other implications, the onus is on you, not Cardinal McCarrick to correct himself.