Cardinal Muller: no need to clarify Amoris Laetitia [CC]

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Ratzinger did indeed write extensively on this subject, but what he wrote is not quite what you appear to believe. He was very concerned with the erroneous conscience and what was being implied in its regard.*The erroneous conscience, by sheltering the person from the exacting demands of truth, saves him …—thus went the argument.
*This is Blue Horizon’s argument: that the sincere conscience is not responsible for the sins it leads to, and it is a position Ratzinger completely rejected.*What I was only dimly aware of in this conversation became glaringly clear a little later in a dispute among colleagues about the justifying power of the erroneous conscience. Objecting to this thesis, someone countered that if this were so then the Nazi SS would be justified and we should seek them in heaven since they carried out all their atrocities with fanatic conviction and complete certainty of conscience. Another responded with utmost assurance that of course this was indeed the case. There is no doubting the fact that Hitler and his accomplices who were deeply convinced of their cause, could not have acted otherwise. Therefore, the objective terribleness of their deeds notwithstanding, they acted morally, subjectively speaking. Since they followed their albeit mistaken consciences, one would have to recognize their conduct as moral and, as a result, should not doubt their eternal salvation. Since that conversation, I knew with complete certainty that something was wrong with the theory of justifying power of the subjective conscience, that, **in other words, a concept of conscience which leads to such conclusions must be false.
***Ender
The quotation is well known and is from the third paragraph of Section 1 of Ratzinger’s essay Conscience and Truth. It is hardly the conclusion of the essay:

ewtn.com/library/curia/ratzcons.htm

No one disputes that the conscience can err. Although Ratzinger acknowledges this, he certainly does not say that the conscience invariably errs. To the contrary, when conscience does not err it “confronts [the individual] with a supreme and ultimate tribunal, and one in which the last resort is beyond the claim… even of the official Church”. (See comment #237.)

This is the point, its relevance that the controversy over AL likely will ultimately involve the question of conscience in the inner forum.
 
Ratzinger did indeed write extensively on this subject, but what he wrote is not quite what you appear to believe. He was very concerned with the erroneous conscience and what was being implied in its regard. “The erroneous conscience, by sheltering the person from the exacting demands of truth, saves him …” —thus went the argument.
Ender, as a self taught auto-didact re moral theology you suffer the same weaknesses as everybody else who has no formal academic training. In a formal academic setting one’s erroneous uptake of reading material and even lectures is corrected by tutorials, debates, exams, assignments and, in the higher levels, “apprenticeship” to a Master or Professor.

Thus the weakness of autodidacts is a certain lack of dexterity in handling and correctly grasping written material, especially at levels beyond the basics which assume a prior rounded formation.

You demonstrate the usual weaknesses here and I simply do not have the time to personally tutor you on your poor grasp of the meaning of the texts you quote other than appeal to your humility and the objective fact of your less than adequate academic training here which give the lie to your over-confident assertions above.

For if you do not agree or understand that “moral evil” must always imply the presence of consent and understanding (in the scholastic meaning of those words) then you cannot understand the system of Catholic Moral Theology as a whole - let alone the Church’s teaching on Conscience.

I point readers to the same old counter arguments re your appalling use of Cardinal Ratzinger’s works (which others on that old discussion actually introduced you to in the first place) as per last time at the following topic link:
forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=1024401&highlight=ratzinger+conscience&page=4
A long debate on your erroneous understandings starts at post #723:

Cardinal Ratzinger in the article you cherry pick from in speaking of the Nazi position has not reversed his understanding of conscience in his very clear GS Commentary.
But he does invite persons such as yourself to distinguish “guiltless consciousness” from a sincere conscience still caught in invincible ignorance.
As per the above linked discussion, post #853:
forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=14242661&postcount=853

The heart of what Card R states is contained here:
It is never wrong to follow the convictions one has arrived at—in fact, one must do so. But it can very well be wrong to have come to such askew convictions in the first place, by having stifled the protest of the anamnesis of being. The guilt lies then in a different place, much deeper—not in the present act, not in the present judgment of conscience but in the neglect of my being which made me deaf to the internal promptings of truth. For this reason, criminals of conviction like Hitler and Stalin are guilty. These crass examples should not serve to put us at ease but should rouse us to take seriously the earnestness of the plea: “Free me from my unknown guilt” (Ps 19:13).
Certainly, one must follow an erroneous conscience. But the departure from truth which took place beforehand and now takes its revenge is the actual guilt which first lulls man into false security and then abandons him in the trackless waste.
This is very different from your superficial analysis of culpable versus inculpable ignorance re a certain conscience.
Ender:
This is Blue Horizon’s argument: that the sincere conscience is not responsible for the sins it leads to, and it is a position Ratzinger completely rejected.
Well I think most here can see this is not my argument.
My argument is that a person who continuously does their reasonable best to form their consciences now has a sincere conscience and if they act from it when certain (even if in error), no culpability attaches. The matter may well be gravely bad but the “sin” will be material only and not formal and therefore not imputable.

Even sincere formation of conscience, as we know, takes a lifetime to be even close to perfect.
 
If you are as well trained in this area as you claim you ought to be able to provide sounder arguments.

Ender
If you do not want to see you will not see Ender.

Let me simply say that your bald statement that something can be “a morally evil act regardless of whether it is specifically chosen or understood to be bad” is just embarrassing. It would have you laughed out of a Moral Theology 201 paper if you stood up and said that.

Don’t shoot the messenger, I am simply trying to relieve you from your current invincible ignorance on the matter. I do not want you to keep embarrassing yourself.

Over and out on this topic.
God’s peace.
 
People always seem to omit ‘the rest of the story’ about primacy of conscience, that is, the requirement that it be ‘well-formed’. For a Catholic, a well-formed conscience will always in the end be in line with the established teaching of the Church regarding faith and morals.
People always seem to omit the rest of the story that a “well formed” conscience is the work of a lifetime.

Therefore a certain conscience may well be formed as much as can be reasonably expected of any given individual and still not arrive at concrete judgements that correctly align with Church Teaching.

Such a conscience is invincibly ignorant (which is without blame).
Informing of conscience is a work in progress.

To say that the concrete decision of an erroneous conscience must be culpably not well formed simply by reason of being at odds with Church Teaching is so silly little further needs to be said. It would gut the teaching of the primacy of conscience of all meaning.
 
The quotation is well known and is from the third paragraph of Section 1 of Ratzinger’s essay Conscience and Truth. It is hardly the conclusion of the essay:

ewtn.com/library/curia/ratzcons.htm

No one disputes that the conscience can err. Although Ratzinger acknowledges this, he certainly does not say that the conscience invariably errs. To the contrary, when conscience does not err it “confronts [the individual] with a supreme and ultimate tribunal, and one in which the last resort is beyond the claim… even of the official Church”. (See comment #237.)

This is the point, its relevance that the controversy over AL likely will ultimately involve the question of conscience in the inner forum.
Thomas,on a side and friendly note: remember when I told you I got stuck about conscience? Well,it was in a very long and interesting discussion about conscience and reading much of this stuff and Newman that I couldn ’ t be sure I was grasping it. And I stuck to the rosary you offered. This just so that we may eventually catch up with the dialogue.some time.
I think I found at that time further info then about Ratzinger of Newman.If I do,I will share it with you so that we may keep talking eventually in some thread. It is a topic that crops up every now and then.I find the theory a bit difficult to grasp
 
it seems most likely that Archbishop Fernandez also helped to draft Amoris Laetitia, and incorporated some of his own previous work into the document.
Sounds more like speculation than news to me.
 
^This.

Any monk would recognize himself in this statement.
Which is why I specifically said right at the beginning that a person’s well-formed conscience might not be as ‘well-formed’ at an earlier point in his or her life.

At least you didn’t put up a strawman argument and impute it to me, that I somehow said per Blue that
To say that the concrete decision of an erroneous conscience must be culpably not well formed simply by reason of being at odds with Church Teaching is so silly little further needs to be said. It would gut the teaching of the primacy of conscience of all meaning.
I said nothing of the kind, but some 'see only what they want to see."
 
"How does a man by divorcing his wife make her an adulteress?
“Not by forcing her into sexual congress with other men. The point is that she cannot marry- at least not in righteousness- inasmuch as and as long as the man who has known her carnally as her true husband is still alive. Thus she bears the taint and the disqualifications of the adulteress in virtue of a decision made not by her but by her husband, and it is this injustice that Jesus condemns. Note that Jesus is not inveighing against Judaic restrictions against divorcées; nowhere does He suggest that a more equitable or godly dispensation would permit a divorcée to remarry. The weight of the opprobrium falls on the man who makes his wife subject to such hardships.”
 
More from Cardinal Ratzinger on the erroneous conscience.* Whoever equates conscience with superficial conviction, identifies conscience with a pseudo-rational certainty, a certainty which in fact has been woven from self- righteousness, conformity and lethargy.
*There is little doubt that when he says we must follow the certain judgment of our conscience he does not have this conception of the conscience in mind.Conscience is degraded to a mechanism for rationalization
This seems to be exactly what we’re dealing with in those who claim we are justified in ignoring church doctrines if we don’t believe them.*Certainly, one must follow an erroneous conscience. But the departure from truth which took place beforehand and now takes its revenge is the actual guilt which first lulls man into false security and then abandons him in the trackless waste.
*Ender
What is most important in this discussion is that while a person’s conscience must be obeyed “before all else, even against even the requirement of ecclesiastical authority”, this is also true when the conscience has not erred. As Joseph Cardinal Ratzinger said, the conscience is “a supreme and ultimate tribunal” (emphasis added)
 
Thomas,on a side and friendly note: remember when I told you I got stuck about conscience? Well,it was in a very long and interesting discussion about conscience and reading much of this stuff and Newman that I couldn ’ t be sure I was grasping it. And I stuck to the rosary you offered. This just so that we may eventually catch up with the dialogue.some time.
I think I found at that time further info then about Ratzinger of Newman.If I do,I will share it with you so that we may keep talking eventually in some thread. It is a topic that crops up every now and then.I find the theory a bit difficult to grasp
Yes, graciew. I remember. Yes, we must catch up at some time and I look forward to the new info about Ratzinger. And yes, the teaching on conscience really is difficult. But you know what, it doesn’t have to be. When I was six years old, we had our First Communion. The good sisters taught us to examine our consciences and we would know whether we should go to confession before going to communion. We were six years old! And it was that simple! It is trying to explain this that is not so simple.
 
The heart of what Card R states is contained here:

.
Blue,sorry if it has nothing to with AL,but it was this part of the " anamnesis" that made me sort of give up when trying to decipher it long ago,since I realized it exceeded me.
Some time,when it comes to the point,I would appreciate if you can briefly explain it. It doesn’t t have to be now if you believe it may complicate what you are now dealing with.Thank you!
 
Yes, graciew. I remember. Yes, we must catch up at some time and I look forward to the new info about Ratzinger. And yes, the teaching on conscience really is difficult. But you know what, it doesn’t have to be. When I was six years old, we had our First Communion. The good sisters taught us to examine our consciences and we would know whether we should go to confession before going to communion. We were six years old! And it was that simple! It is trying to explain this that is not so simple.
I would love to.
Well,I can understand what you are saying about the nuns because I grew up kind of like that.
And that is true,sometimes we " know" something but to put it into words…that is another story.
I will look it up as soon as I can. And when the time comes,we’ ll have it there.
Thanks,Thomas
 
BlueHorizon:
To say that the concrete decision of an erroneous conscience must be culpably not well formed simply by reason of being at odds with Church Teaching is so silly little further needs to be said. It would gut the teaching of the primacy of conscience of all meaning.
Er, excuse me?
Lets lift the finger off the hair trigger a little perhaps.
Where did I say you said the above exactly?

What you will find at the conclusion of my contribution was an anticipated response to the usual rejoinders, not aimed at anyone in particular but at all who might disagree.

But it piqued my interest to see whether you actually did opine as much in our prior debate…and indeed it seems you did strongly lean that way…
Originally Posted by TMC View Post
Well formed conscience does not always necessarily mean a conscience that conforms to Church teaching. If it did, the doctrine of conscience would be subsumed and irrelevant.
Tantum Ergo:
It doesn’t? …If a conscience is well formed, it must actually be conformed towards God, right? …

From memory you then went on to doggedly assert that a well-formed non culpable conscience may only validly non-conform on arbitrary matters of discipline or moral teaching that allows of different responses.

So even if I did not actually say you said the above on this occasion…it seems that is indeed largely your view from prior discussions.
 
Blue,sorry if it has nothing to with AL,but it was this part of the " anamnesis" that made me sort of give up when trying to decipher it long ago,since I realized it exceeded me.
Some time,when it comes to the point,I would appreciate if you can briefly explain it. It doesn’t t have to be now if you believe it may complicate what you are now dealing with.Thank you!
Gracie I think this has quite a bit to do with AL, as a correct understanding of conscience likely has much to do with that sub-group of irregulars who have grown to realise fairly early on that the first marriage was a sham but are unable to gather robust enough evidence to prove this to the dregree required by a Tribunal.
I believe these will be the ones who, if abstinence is not humanly possible, may well be allowed to receive Confession and regular Communion without expressing a firm intention to abstain. Why? Because a PP, requiring a lesser standard of objective evidence, may well decide to the best of his knowledge that their subjective view plus less robust evidence is in fact the objective situation…and that they are not committing adultery so far as he (or anyone) can tell.

But back to the text. Yes, that word threw me a little also when I first read through. I have only ever seen it used liturgically - never in a moral theology reflection. But I think the meaning is relatively clear.

It is a remembering, a re-living of a foundational past event of great significance for the present. So he seems to be poetically saying that “conscience” is not simply some sort of here and now passing feeling/judgement or consciousness of a briefly contemplated course of action.
It is me reflectively accessing my whole past history of decision makings and learning from deep within at any given moment I care to quietly turn that “inward eye”. It is my whole significant past decisions and significant moral choice memories rising up as an integrated whole to speak to me on God’s behalf - if I choose to quieten down and listen.

So C.Ratz seems to be saying that a culpably malformed conscience will be one that has been ignored or even repressed (“stifled”) at seminal moments in the past. Like the cries of a hungry child ignored…if continually ignored at critical moments in ones history it eventually weakens and dies in those areas it protested…and not even a feeling of blind guilt may remain to consciousness.

A well formed and certain conscience (even if erroneous) will also be without guilt … but for the very opposite reason. That innocent voice has always been heeded and fed and one’s character and life changes to match the expectations of the child fed so that it is healthy and it does not cry so there is nothing for it to cry about.

That doesn’t mean we don’t always feed conscience healthy food. We all eat junk food, and when young we often do not even know the difference. Just because a child is cared for and belly full and doesn’t cry …that doesn’t always mean the food was the healthiest.

Hence informing conscience correctly is somewhat trial and error, and the work of a lifetime. So long as we continuously follow the limited lights available to us from others and improve our wisdom by learning from our own concrete mistakes we will not be culpable for feeding the voice of conscience bad or even infected food as it were.

One might ask how it is that even good people who always try to correctly form their conscience, who grow up in the Church with benefit of Church teaching and holy example…how they might still have less than well-formed consciences?
Consequences of the Fall I believe… imperfect example, imperfectly expressed teaching, imperfect understanding, venial sins. And also laws of growth…even Jesus grew in wisdom and understanding…some things just cannot be taught, they must be caught (like faith) or bought by pain (eg trial and error like riding a bike) personally.

Anyhow, that’s my 2 minutes stream of consciousness take on it!
 
FYI, Catholic Answers Magazine just published an article about the Maltese bishops’ decision. I started a thread for that at forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=1038304
I got a chuckle out of this part although it’s really not funny considering the seriousness of the issue:

“Married men, tell your wife you’re going to cheat on her but you’re “at peace with God” about it. Let me know what she says. Or next time you read about a priest having an affair with the parish secretary remember that the “law of graduality” allows it, and be sure to praise him for not being “black and white” about sex.”
 
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