Cardinal Pell charged and must return

[friardchips]

The problem with this, is that the police have often themselves been accused of bad things. The police, in probably more than one country, have been accused of being racist, for example. No doubt, too, there is a lot of freemasonry that happens on a professional level, behind the scenes, and also, the law allows abortion in many countries - you know, legal killing - so it is a bit odd to think that he is put on trial by the police and standing in a secular trial?!

 

[johnnykins]

Associated press via Crux:

cruxnow.com/global-church/2017/06/29/australian-police-charge-vatican-cardinal-sex-offenses/

Bold text my emphases.

Cardinal Pell is innocent until proven guilty.

You are quite wrong. The legal standard is one is “presumed” innocent until proven guilty. And, I might add, that presumption applies only to legal process…not an overarching presumption to any and all situations. Whether he is actually guilty or innocent of anything it itself a matter of fact which we may never know.

At law he is tried and needs to be found guilty by meeting a legal standard: in the USA “beyond a reasonable doubt.” Thus he may be found not guilty and yet actually be guilty. Similarly, he may be found guilty and be innocent. I note he is found “guilty” or “not guilty” beyond a reasonable doubt…the trial court does not find “innocence” as that is not the way it works…his innocence is presumed until found guilty.

 

[pianistclare]

To answer a few questions:

Cardinal Pell is 76 years old, and by all accounts, the charges relate to events alleged to have occurred in the 1970s.

Pell is unpopular with secular society, particularly the progressives. IMHO, he is not a good communicator - he typically comes across as insensitive, lacking empathy and perhaps arrogant. This is not going to be helpful in a jury trial. Despite this, those who know him well or over extended periods (Eg Sydney Archbishop Fisher) regard him as a thoroughly decent man. Regrettably, there are many people who want to see someone senior prosecuted, and the antagonism many feel toward him lead them to conclude he’s their man.

While the media describe him as a “conservative” Catholic, the issues they use to exemplify this are actually mainstream Catholic positions:

• opposes abortion;
• he supports an all male priesthood;
• he refused to offer communion to gay activists (dressed to make the point…) who presented in the communion line.

Charges about alleged events 40 years ago. An unpopular defendant. A society antagonistic toward the Church following a few years of sexual abuse victims telling their stories. This case is sure to challenge the wheels of justice.

This.

Plus, that anyone would think these are minor charges is ridiculous.
Do folks not realize the hoops that volunteers now have to jump through to be in any ministry in parishes because of this history of coverup that we have suffered through?
This is the main reason why I left Youth Ministry, and let me tell you when I announced that I was changing jobs within the Church parents and youth wept. Because NO ONE wants to work with the kids anymore. You can’t counsel a crying kid except out in the open, for fear you’re a pedophile . Mission trips? Forget it. Beach days, Sonfest? No way. 4 day retreats? You’re kidding, right? Have a kid left at church for hours? His parents forgot to pick him up? I can’t drive him home. I’m not to be trusted!!!
I’ve had great people willing to volunteer and catechize kids, but so unwilling to give up hours to get safety cleared. They just walk away. Meanwhile, we’re killing the Religious Ed teams in parishes.

I pray he’s innocent, but we can’t make “light” of any charge.
It’s far too serious to be assuming anything at this point.

HD is right. The devil is having a field day, regardless.
Makes me want to puke.

 

[abucs]

Using your position in the media to character assassinate people for political reasons (such as with Trump) has been a disgrace for many years now and disgustingly biased people in the Australian media have followed suit.

Herald Sun asks about a fair trial.

 

[StudentMI]

How DARE you deign to insinuate that Cardinal Pell ‘protected’ pedophiles or that he has demurred from facing his slanderous accusers! (Accusers who have conveniently waited decades.)
Go home???

Was Jesus ‘hiding’ in Gethsemene?
“…Have you come out with swords and clubs to arrest Me as you would an outlaw?”

God bless Fr George.
May God give him strength to face the spittal and hatred to which he willingly offers himself.

David Ridsdale. 60 minutes interview. Peter Saunders. Look them up. Not my fault you haven’t done your homework.

And comparing him to Jesus? Please.

 

[Erikaspirit16]

I happened to be in Sydney in Nov. 2012. The trial of a priest for pedophilia was going on, and Cardinal Pell attended the trial. A reporter asked Pell why he was there: “in solidarity with the priest,” Pell replied.

I have to admit I was taken aback, esp. by the word “solidarity.” Pell didn’t have to be at the trial. He didn’t have to say he was there “in solidarity with the priest.” Now if he had said something like “I’m here in solidarity with all the victims of sexual assault,” that would be great. But he said the opposite. Why go out of your way to do that? Knowing it’s going to be in the papers?

I would urge everyone to watch “The Keepers,” a 7-part series on Netflix. There was a thread about it once, but it was deleted…

 

[Mark121359]

I’m curious if anybody knows. Would this be the highest ranking prelate to ever be accused of such charges in the RCC? My mind is drawing blank as to whether this has ever happened in the past.

Peace, Mark

 

[pianistclare]

I’m curious if anybody knows. Would this be the highest ranking prelate to ever be accused of such charges in the RCC? My mind is drawing blank as to whether this has ever happened in the past.

Peace, Mark

Why does it matter?

 

[ARSpade]

This is my thoughts also. Cardinal Pell was the first in Australian bishop to address the issue that plagues so much of our society including the liberalising church of the 1960’s-1990’s.

The secular media have been out to get Cardinal Pell for a very long time and any evidence has been extremely flimsy. They want to get him basically because he is a conservative and number 3 in the Vatican.

We can never pre-judge the case of when someone / anyone has been accused but of all that I have seen, this points to another Left secular witch hunt.

A lot of folks in the Vatican have had it out for him too since he was put in charge of fixing Vatican finances and found a lot of office’s personal slush funds.

 

[Padres1969]

I’m curious if anybody knows. Would this be the highest ranking prelate to ever be accused of such charges in the RCC? My mind is drawing blank as to whether this has ever happened in the past.

Peace, Mark

From what I’ve read Pell would be the highest positioned Catholic prelate to be accused of abuse directly yes. He’s not the first Cardinal to be accused. But Pell is a highly positioned Cardinal in the Vatican, being a direct advisor to Pope Francis as the Prefect of the Secretariat for the Economy.

 

[abucs]

A lot of folks in the Vatican have had it out for him too since he was put in charge of fixing Vatican finances and found a lot of office’s personal slush funds.

could be a connection. Some quarters of the media have gone after Pell viciously without credible evidence. As said previously, we can never know for certain when these accusations (and charges now) are levied but that does not excuse the vicious and unfair abuse thrown at him over decades by the chattering classes who, praise God, are finally losing their credibility in the minds of everyday citizens.

 

[CarolNoel]

More sadness for our faith.

 

[pianistclare]

It shouldn’t shake us. Our faith rests in Christ Jesus. Not fallible people.
Be at peace. The Church will never be destroyed, no matter how hard Satan tries.
Just pray for the victims and those who will examine these cases. Some people are truly innocent, but also the guilty should be accountable.

I am hopeful. I hope all can leave it in God’s capable hands.

 

[Mark121359]

Why does it matter?

Because accusations such as these towards a cardinal carries a great deal more weight than those directed at your basic parish priest. Because he’s a member of the College of Cardinals, whose primary duty is electing the bishop of Rome. He’s what’s known as a Prince of the Church. He is called that because he is considered the ecclesiastical equal to the prince of a reigning civil society. Because he’s a senior adviser to Pope Francis and the third-ranking official in the Holy See…that’s why!

Peace, Mark

 

[Faithdancer]

The Australian justice system will proceed, and I’m confident that the truth will come out, one way or the other.

Reading the news, though, it occurs to me how dangerous it is for a grown man, especially a single man, to be swimming with children, or doing anything with children that aren’t his own, without backup, i.e. at least one vetted adult witness. Attitudes were different in the 70s, to be sure, and these days everyone is quick to be suspicious, whisper, and gossip.

Adults who work with children–particularly male adults-- need to be hyper-vigilant at all times and avoid putting themselves in compromising situations.

 

[Faithdancer]

This.

Plus, that anyone would think these are minor charges is ridiculous.
Do folks not realize the hoops that volunteers now have to jump through to be in any ministry in parishes because of this history of coverup that we have suffered through?
This is the main reason why I left Youth Ministry, and let me tell you when I announced that I was changing jobs within the Church parents and youth wept. Because NO ONE wants to work with the kids anymore. You can’t counsel a crying kid except out in the open, for fear you’re a pedophile . Mission trips? Forget it. Beach days, Sonfest? No way. 4 day retreats? You’re kidding, right? Have a kid left at church for hours? His parents forgot to pick him up? I can’t drive him home. I’m not to be trusted!!!
I’ve had great people willing to volunteer and catechize kids, but so unwilling to give up hours to get safety cleared. They just walk away. Meanwhile, we’re killing the Religious Ed teams in parishes.

I pray he’s innocent, but we can’t make “light” of any charge.
It’s far too serious to be assuming anything at this point.

HD is right. The devil is having a field day, regardless.
Makes me want to puke.

That’s part of why I left (Roman Catholic) youth ministry as well. Had to cancel youth group sometimes when the assistant (female) youth minister wasn’t there. And you wrote, “I’ve had great people willing to volunteer and catechize kids, but so unwilling to give up hours to get safety cleared. They just walk away.”
My experience too!

As an educator, I’m super careful about contact. Kids want hugs for example. But you learn to move your body away and just give a kind of “air hug.” They’re just spontaneous with their affection that way, usually at the end of the day, going out the door. They have big hearts!

Alone with them one on one? Never. The first kid in the morning wants to come in and get acquainted, be helpful. Nope. And there’s always one kid who comes running back at lunch or recess for something they forgot. You let them in and stand outside, holding the door open until they leave. It’s really just common sense.

I still hear of teachers giving kids rides. Female coaches, mainly, but even they’re taking a big risk.

 

[ARSpade]

The Australian justice system will proceed, and I’m confident that the truth will come out, one way or the other.

Reading the news, though, it occurs to me how dangerous it is for a grown man, especially a single man, to be swimming with children, or doing anything with children that aren’t his own, without backup, i.e. at least one vetted adult witness. Attitudes were different in the 70s, to be sure, and these days everyone is quick to be suspicious, whisper, and gossip.

Adults who work with children–particularly male adults-- need to be hyper-vigilant at all times and avoid putting themselves in compromising situations.

They’ve done “hidden camera” things and found out that men today will ignore and walk past a crying lost child in a mall. Because the men are afraid they could get accused of something.

 

[Faithdancer]

They’ve done “hidden camera” things and found out that men today will ignore and walk past a crying lost child in a mall. Because the men are afraid they could get accused of something.

Sad. Though of course the best choice might be to tell security, a store clerk, a grandmother, somebody? But I wouldn’t get too close to the kid.
Again, sad. I often have crying kids in the young elementary classroom, or on the playground. I’ll ask a concerned friend their age to console them. That usually works.

 

[Faithdancer]

Because accusations such as these towards a cardinal carries a great deal more weight than those directed at your basic parish priest. Because he’s a member of the College of Cardinals, whose primary duty is electing the bishop of Rome. He’s what’s known as a Prince of the Church. He is called that because he is considered the ecclesiastical equal to the prince of a reigning civil society. Because he’s a senior adviser to Pope Francis and the third-ranking official in the Holy See…that’s why!

Peace, Mark

All true. And the amount if press coverage will be exponentially higher, as we’re already seeing.

 

[1Lord1Faith]

That’s part of why I left (Roman Catholic) youth ministry as well. Had to cancel youth group sometimes when the assistant (female) youth minister wasn’t there. And you wrote, “I’ve had great people willing to volunteer and catechize kids, but so unwilling to give up hours to get safety cleared. They just walk away.”
My experience too!

As an educator, I’m super careful about contact. Kids want hugs for example. But you learn to move your body away and just give a kind of “air hug.” They’re just spontaneous with their affection that way, usually at the end of the day, going out the door. They have big hearts!

Alone with them one on one? Never. The first kid in the morning wants to come in and get acquainted, be helpful. Nope. And there’s always one kid who comes running back at lunch or recess for something they forgot. You let them in and stand outside, holding the door open until they leave. It’s really just common sense.

I still hear of teachers giving kids rides. Female coaches, mainly, but even they’re taking a big risk.

Pope Francis’ homily today, for the feast of St. Peter and Paul, talked about persecution and keeping the faith. I’m sure he had weightier subject matter in mind but I couldn’t help think of it when I read your post.

Tolerating evil means overcoming it with Jesus, and in Jesus’ own way, which is not the way of the world. This is why Paul – as we heard – considered himself a victor about to receive his crown (cf. 2 Tim 4:8). He writes: “I have fought the good fight, I have finished the race, I have kept the faith” (v. 7). The essence of his “good fight” was living for: he lived not for himself, but for Jesus and for others. He spent his life “running the race”, not holding back but giving his all. He tells us that there is only one thing that he “kept”: not his health, but his faith, his confession of Christ. Out of love, he experienced trials, humiliations and suffering, which are never to be sought but always accepted.

en.radiovaticana.va/news/2017/06/29/pope_francis_homily_for_feast_of_saints_peter_and_paul/1322071

I do plenty of volunteering at our Catholic school and I don’t see any difference in the way volunteers act with the kids as they would with their own kids. The safety training is also very easy and only needs to be updated every three years. Maybe we are lucky.