Cardinal Raymond Burke: ‘Feminized’ church and altar girls caused priest shortage

[LisaA]

So is the difference “boys vs. boys + girls” or “traditional vs. ordinary”?

I don’t see how what you describe is “muscular”… Also, precision, efficiency, and reverence are not male-only traits.

Your words can be perceived as being condescending, praising those who you deem to be more ascetic in practice while diminishing others with their “only role” during Communion. They may not be priests, but they are still serving God.

You should address the comments without the need to set up straw men. One poster indicated that the role of the Acolyte has greatly diminished and thus this might be a major reason for the reduction in boys’ interest in serving. I agree. You can see this in many activities…for example on the slopes boys are more likely to go for the snowboard where they can bombadier down the hill whereas girls tend to the skis. Doesn’t mean that there aren’t male skiiers or female snowboarders but the difference inspires more male interest. Ditto in the world of horses. Boys want to go fast and high. They are more likely to be interested in riding jumpers or roping than dressage patterns.

Further you make my point. In diminishing the role of the Altar Server to a bit part instead of an integral part of the Mass, it has become less challenging. Boys are attracted to challenges. Watching the young men at the traditional parish as they moved with utter precision was inspiring. Like watching Marines or the Thunderbirds. In contrast our Altar Servers spend most of their time sitting quietly. Tell me you think boys are better at or more willing than girls to sit quietly and I will introduce you to thousands of moms and teachers who beg to differ.

I don’t know why you think acknowledging that males and females are different and that different activities appeal to boys than girls is some kind of hate speech. Our Church has done a masterful job in such works as Muleris Dignitatum and Theology of the Body in helping us appreciate and honor our masculine or feminine nature.

 

[SWolf]

IOW we don’t need to force men into traditional female roles in an effort to make them more palatable to boys. Instead look to activities that can utilize their assets and abilities…something active, challenging and interesting will inspire more boys than trying to push them into areas that don’t utilize and take advantage of their nature and strengths.

Your arguments about current Altar Servers is spot on.

Actually, everything was spot on.

We could get into a more broad discussion about the weaknesses of modern culture towards boys, the culture of medicating boys who act like, well, boys, and not allowing children to do anything remotely dangerous, difficult, or independent. I see it as the Church following mainstream culture’s lead, again, instead of being the counter cultural force it is supposed to be. It only is logical the disastrous effects in mainstream culture are seen in the Church as well.

 

[LisaA]

Your arguments about current Altar Servers is spot on.

Actually, everything was spot on.

We could get into a more broad discussion about the weaknesses of modern culture towards boys, the culture of medicating boys who act like, well, boys, and not allowing children to do anything remotely dangerous, difficult, or independent. I see it as the Church following mainstream culture’s lead, again, instead of being the counter cultural force it is supposed to be. It only is logical the disastrous effects in mainstream culture are seen in the Church as well.

Oh don’t get me started on “The War on Boys” in our culture or in effect the war on our true nature, male or female. I can get quite wrapped around the axle.

 

[ProVobis]

… there was a pretty good representation of men in the pews.

37% overall attendance by men is no small representation for sure, but how many of them aren’t henpecked or bored half to death? I’ll bet many more than the ladies but I’m just guessing.

 

[on_the_hill]

I just saw the article.

It’s interesting how Cardinal Burke’s views have been so frequently reflected here at CAF, almost verbatim, long before he gave the interview.

It’s almost as if the Cardinal and his supporters secretly circulated a list of talking points.

 

[on_the_hill]

Children who do not comply with the ideal which is a quiet, compliant child, are disciplined or drugged.

Not to nitpick–but nuns had been whacking knuckles long, long…long before there was any sense of feminism, or modernization, or culture change. The model student had ALWAYS been the quiet, studious, compliant child.

 

[SWolf]

I just saw the article.

It’s interesting how Cardinal Burke’s views have been so frequently reflected here at CAF, almost verbatim, long before he gave the interview.

It’s almost as if the Cardinal and his supporters secretly circulated a list of talking points.

You’re just jealous you don’t have our secret decoder ring…

I’ve said too much.

 

[ProVobis]

Not to nitpick–but nuns had been whacking knuckles long, long…long before there was any sense of feminism, or modernization, or culture change. The model student had ALWAYS been the quiet, studious, compliant child.

The nuns took a back seat to those London male teachers I had though.

But on the bright side, there was nothing like showing how macho you were by showing being wacked in front of a class didn’t hurt.

 

[EIF5A]

You should address the comments without the need to set up straw men. One poster indicated that the role of the Acolyte has greatly diminished and thus this might be a major reason for the reduction in boys’ interest in serving. I agree. You can see this in many activities…for example on the slopes boys are more likely to go for the snowboard where they can bombadier down the hill whereas girls tend to the skis. Doesn’t mean that there aren’t male skiiers or female snowboarders but the difference inspires more male interest. Ditto in the world of horses. Boys want to go fast and high. They are more likely to be interested in riding jumpers or roping than dressage patterns.

Further you make my point. In diminishing the role of the Altar Server to a bit part instead of an integral part of the Mass, it has become less challenging. Boys are attracted to challenges. Watching the young men at the traditional parish as they moved with utter precision was inspiring. Like watching Marines or the Thunderbirds. In contrast our Altar Servers spend most of their time sitting quietly. Tell me you think boys are better at or more willing than girls to sit quietly and I will introduce you to thousands of moms and teachers who beg to differ.

I don’t know why you think acknowledging that males and females are different and that different activities appeal to boys than girls is some kind of hate speech. Our Church has done a masterful job in such works as Muleris Dignitatum and Theology of the Body in helping us appreciate and honor our masculine or feminine nature.

These are all generalities. Men are generally more/less [insert blank] than women. Women are generally more/less [insert blank] than men.

But if both genders can carry out a given task, why should girls be forbidden? Seriously, it’s not the Marines or fighting fire. I have a hard time believing if taught correctly, girls can’t be just as precise as Altar Servers as boys. Maybe no one really bothered to train the “normal” Altar Servers, boys or girls, correctly.

If only boys are taught what you deem to be more rigorous, OF COURSE you’ll only see boys performing that.

I assume Altar Servers are of the age where they can discern the value and necessity of proper reverence and silence during Mass. It’s not really a miracle for boys to sit silently.

What does snowboarding/skiing have anything to do with what is physically required for Altar Servers?

That’s like saying boys generally like blue and girls generally like pastel, ergo we need to respect gender division and only allow boys.

 

[FollowChrist34]

I agree that culture really emasculates men and that it is a huge problem. Men should act like men for sure; it’s much healthier to have a strong distinction between the sexes. This is a big plus, not a minus. I accept the argument that this social “feminization” could have affected things in the Church, but I can’t say in personal experience I’ve ever noticed it. Unless I am just missing it, I think there are men in almost equal numbers to women at my parish (I guess I will be on the look out now) …altar girls honestly don’t bother me; I didn’t know they were supposed to until now.

 

[EIF5A]

37% overall attendance by men is no small representation for sure, but how many of them aren’t henpecked or bored half to death? I’ll bet many more than the ladies but I’m just guessing.

What exactly about Mass is feminized? Music? Flowers? Icon of St. Therese of Lisieux on the side wall?

What would you propose to make Mass more masculine?

(About the observation: I specifically mentioned that it was only for the few parishes I’ve been to. Maybe it’s a geographic thing.)

 

[StSentry83]

Yeah, that’s it…the feminization of the Catholic Church (what the heck does that even mean?) and girl alter servers are causing the shortage of priests.

I agree with him that the role of altar server should be reserved to boys, as the role of priest is reserved to men.

I also agree with you that the frequent use of feminine words in a pejorative way is highly concerning, and I wonder how female Catholics reconcile their treatment within the Church with the understanding that the Church values them. This wondering on my part has nothing whatever to do with the reservation of the role of priest for men. See, some of them try to make it out as if being concerned with the way women are valued/treated is the same thing as saying that there should be priestesses. But it is not.

As an outsider to the Church, you’ll notice, for example, the way people speak about Americans nuns because several groups of them have been unfaithful to the Church. For some reason when it comes to nuns, it’s OK to trash all of them for the actions of a few. But when it comes to the priestly molestation scandal, for example, you don’t hear Catholics painting with a broad brush and labeling all of our priests as pedophiles.

 

[Sarcelle]

What exactly about Mass is feminized? Music? Flowers? Icon of St. Therese of Lisieux on the side wall?

What would you propose to make Mass more masculine?

(About the observation: I specifically mentioned that it was only for the few parishes I’ve been to. Maybe it’s a geographic thing.)

This is also my question.

For the people who say the mass is feminized, what do you think should be done?

What are the solutions?

 

[LisaA]

These are all generalities. Men are generally more/less [insert blank] than women. Women are generally more/less [insert blank] than men.

But if both genders can carry out a given task, why should girls be forbidden? Seriously, it’s not the Marines or fighting fire. I have a hard time believing if taught correctly, girls can’t be just as precise as Altar Servers as boys. Maybe no one really bothered to train the “normal” Altar Servers, boys or girls, correctly.

If only boys are taught what you deem to be more rigorous, OF COURSE you’ll only see boys performing that.

I assume Altar Servers are of the age where they can discern the value and necessity of proper reverence and silence during Mass. It’s not really a miracle for boys to sit silently.

What does snowboarding/skiing have anything to do with what is physically required for Altar Servers?

That’s like saying boys generally like blue and girls generally like pastel, ergo we need to respect gender division and only allow boys.

As I said, setting up strawmen and lighting them does not advance the discussion. We just go in circles. No one has said only allow boys to be Altar Servers. No one said for boys to be quiet or reverent is a miracle. No one. Please address what has actually been said and provide a counterpoint.

Here are the salient points I have tried to make:.

1. Boys and girls are different—do you agree?
2. Boys and girls enjoy different activities…in general as I said not every single one but in general boys are attracted to and are good at more active experiences…do you agree?
3. Mass and the role of the Acolyte have changed and some of believe that these changes have discouraged boys’ participation…do you agree or disagree?
4. If we want to attract more boys we should consider changing our approach to this ministry…agree or disagree?

The point of the examples is to show how boys and girls may participate in the same sport but certain elements of the sport are more attractive to one or the other. Similarly with being an Altar Server, both can participate but attracting them and keeping them interested might require a different and expanded role than what is currently seen in most parishes I’ve attended.

This is only on the subject of Altar Servers rather than addressing the OP.

 

[LisaA]

Not to nitpick–but nuns had been whacking knuckles long, long…long before there was any sense of feminism, or modernization, or culture change. The model student had ALWAYS been the quiet, studious, compliant child.

Ummmm try whacking knuckles today and see the teacher frog marched to a tribunal for child abuse! You are spot on in pointing out how Sisters could keep order in classes three times the size they are now. For one there was more respect for teachers, elders, and authority figures. For another one was in fear of actual punishment…for us the threat of being sent to the Principal’s office was enough to soothe the savage beasts. Also I think teachers knew that boys were usually more squirmy, active and boisterous and given much more leeway to be boys. Finally in the past there were more outlets for this energy…PE, recess, playground time. Current schools and teaching methods work against male nature and instead of knuckle wrapping the squirmy or spacy kid is sent to the doctor for Ritalin

 

[EIF5A]

Here are the salient points I have tried to make:.

1. Boys and girls are different—do you agree?
2. Boys and girls enjoy different activities…in general as I said not every single one but in general boys are attracted to and are good at more active experiences…do you agree?
3. Mass and the role of the Acolyte have changed and some of believe that these changes have discouraged boys’ participation…do you agree or disagree?
4. If we want to attract more boys we should consider changing our approach to this ministry…agree or disagree?

1. Yes
2. Yes
3. Yes
4. Yes

But are female Altar Servers really the problem? Are we really to raise up boys who might later be priests to think that just because there are female Altar Servers, that it’s girly? I mean, it’s serving at Mass, not playing dolly with Barbie.

It seems like there’s a convenient scapegoat.

 

[Havard]

This is also my question.

For the people who say the mass is feminized, what do you think should be done?

What are the solutions?

I don’t completely get all of His Eminence’s points, but I think he’s saying it has a lot more to do with loosey-goosey or sloppy Masses than with flowers or pictures of St. Therese. Whether or not you agree with him, he seems to argue that the strict discipline that results in perfect form is particularly appealing to men. Personally I think it’d be more appealing to everyone, but I do agree that Masses in parishes all over could be a lot more reverential.

 

[ProVobis]

What exactly about Mass is feminized? Music? Flowers? Icon of St. Therese of Lisieux on the side wall?

Femininity and feminism are two different things. Passing out flowers on Mother’s Day or singing hymns to Our Lady don’t emasculate the liturgy. I don’t think you quite see the issue.

 

[EIF5A]

Femininity and feminism are two different things. Passing out flowers on Mother’s Day or singing hymns to Our Lady don’t emasculate the liturgy. I don’t think you quite see the issue.

Then please elaborate…

Basically, the charge is that the Church has become too effeminate, so men drop out.

Please provide concrete examples of how the modern Church has driven away men in favor of allowing a more women-centered environment, and possible solutions to rectify the situation.

 

[ProVobis]

Please provide concrete examples of how the modern Church has driven away men in favor of allowing a more women-centered environment, and possible solutions to rectify the situation.

Do I need to go further than “the spirit of Vatican II” ?

I believe the last major attempt to “rectify the situation” ended up in some schismatic camp. I hope Cardinal Burke has a less dramatic and more successful plan. But if he’s not in a position to do anything about it, then we’ll all have to be patient until one is.