Cardinal Raymond Burke: ‘Feminized’ church and altar girls caused priest shortage

[Ridgerunner]

And so, just as it is in schools now, the boys have no expectations. They have no role. They have no responsibilities. The same acts and behaviors are expected of them that the girls exhibit (the latter being a lot easier to handle) and they don’t do well. They lose interest in performing for that feminine world and give it up. Look at the statistics for college entrance. That of girls is going up, while that of boys is going down.

Boys don’t know how to act or perform as boys because that has been progressively eliminated in the society at large; something the Church in America has, unfortunately adopted. And so, with no early model peculiar to them, patterned on that of men, they oftentimes never become men, really. They remain the “drifters” and “outlaws” as adults that they had no choice but to be as children.

But I am not one to think all is lost. I have met some very manly younger priests who don’t seem to be afraid to be men. I have met some very feminine young nuns in new orders, and being women doesn’t seem to trouble them. For laypeople, it is well to teach their children that they don’t have to be “unigender”. It’s quite alright to be a boy or a girl, even good. And it’s okay to have gender-specific interests and roles.

 

[Ridgerunner]

It’s a tenuous excuse that teen-ish kids with the mature mind to serve at Mass would be deterred by the presence of girls.

Omigosh! For teenage boys it would be even more daunting than it would be for a little kid! That’s why teenage male servers are even more rare.

 

[Havard]

But that’s definitely not the norm. Or even common…

This seems to be a pervasive issue, so it must be something that affects a large percentage of parishes.

What is it?

If he’s talking about the OF, then… too casual.

When His Eminence refers to glory and gravity, I believe he’s saying that Mass has become loosey-goosey. I’m not a traditionalist (OF only here), but it’s clear to me that the further the Mass departs from tradition, the less I’m likely to physically sense the glory and gravity.

 

[LisaA]

It’s a tenuous excuse that teen-ish kids with the mature mind to serve at Mass would be deterred by the presence of girls.

What does greeting people before Mass (which I agree with you is not conducive to reverence) have to do with feminization of the Church? Is it a female thing to greet people?

I don’t know that age of Altar Servers at your parish but ours are not “teenish” or even tweens…they are more in the 7 to 10 year old range. I don’t know how mature the minds are at age seven but my experience is that prior to puberty, boys and girls tend to same sex activities and friendships. Again this has been debated repeatedly and since you either don’t bother to read the posts or don’t have an argument against what has been stated (repeatedly) I won’t respond again.

And yes, making Mass a social time IS decidedly a female thing. I have no idea how this started but since our priest is very strict about liturgical abuses I cannot imagine he thought this was a good idea. I suspect our Liturgy Committee which is, indeed, made up of women.

 

[NeedsMercy]

Read the interview.

I read the whole sad, sorry thing.

 

[ProVobis]

If he’s talking about the OF, then… too casual.

When His Eminence refers to glory and gravity, I believe he’s saying that Mass has become loosey-goosey. I’m not a traditionalist (OF only here), but it’s clear to me that the further the Mass departs from tradition, the less I’m likely to physically sense the glory and gravity.

I’d add mystery to that list.

 

[SWolf]

I read the whole sad, sorry thing.

Then you know the accusations you made were false.

 

[JimG]

I would never stop going to Mass, no matter what. I would grit my teeth in a particularly badly done one, but I would still go.

I’m not sure about the strict discipline and perfect form, and there may not be anything that could be done to correct the thing that irks me the most; the awful way people dress for Mass. I just hate it. I always wear a coat and tie, no matter what. It’s a reverence thing to me. Even my son and grandsons do it as well.

I don’t much like the hand-holding, and won’t do it. For a guy, or at least this guy, it’s more embarrassing not to do it than to do it. Who am I going to hold hands with? I’ll hold hands with my wife or a child relative, but it gives me the crawls to hold hands with a guy, and I just won’t do it. I get just as jumpy about holding hands with a teenage girl or, worse, somebody else’s wife. Old ladies are okay, but other than family and old ladies, I just won’t hold hands with anybody. Shaking hands is, in this culture, manly enough. If Frenchmen kiss each other, let them. I’m not a Frenchman.

I don’t understand why people do that “orans” thing. It’s so Assembly of God. Since their world HQ is right here, I guess that’s where it came from. But I won’t do it.

I do like statues and pictures, though i don’t like the cadaverous caricature figures in some of the “modern” parishes. I’m fine with statues of Our Lady and any female saint one wants to name. I don’t mind flowers and think they’re a good idea. (Did you ever notice how full of flowers most ethnic Polish churches are? Polanie: “People of the fields”. Interesting.) Ethnic German churches are “in the woods”. Germans are “wood people” and want to be in the forest at Mass, I guess. A little gloomy for my taste, but okay.

Ornamentation is fine with me, but I like a little grandeur too. I really don’t like “intimate worship spaces”. I had an argument with a woman once about that. She favored cave-like church interiors because the are, she said “intimate worship spaces”. I don’t know where she got that terminology, but I hate “intimate worship spaces”, “in the round”, sunken sanctuaries, dim lighting, weird decor, no kneelers as often as not, tabernacle off in an even more “intimate worship space”.

I recall asking her if she had ever seen artists’ renderings of the Roman Forum. She had. I asked her if she knew why it looked the way it did. She didn’t. I said it was made ultra-grand in order to impress the citizenry and foreigners with the fact that Rome and its institutions were “bigger than them”; bigger than any man, emperor included. I said boys and young men (and grown men too) like grandeur and respond to it. I know when I was growing up, tall columns, majestic statuary (both male and female) high ceilings, fabulous choir lofts were fascinating to me and made me experience God as grandeur; the “Lord of Hosts”. Big angels with big wings. That some looked rather female was not a problem. After all, Athene Nike in the Parthenon was female and grand simultaneously. Personally, I think boys and men need to have it demonstrated from time to time that there is something “bigger than them”. I don’t think anybody denies anymore than men are very visual creatures. Boys are too.

women shouldn’t object to men being impressed that they’re not the grandest thing in the universe. Or at least I wouldn’t think they would.

That post certainly identified some problems and for me, brought back some memories. Having spent my formative years in a pre-Vatican II environment, I can recall, even as a young boy, being impressed weekly with the grandeur of our Gothic church and the gravity of the Mass. There were lots of stained glass windows, ornate stations of the cross, and a choir loft.

I hated losing that choir loft in the newer churches, which put the choir near the altar and turned the choir into performers rather than worshipers praising God. Some of the most beautiful music I ever heard came from that choir in the loft. Who says that kids can’t appreciate Gregorian chant? There are times that they were so good that I wanted to applaud, but I never did. Nobody would have dared to applaud in church; it would have detracted from the atmosphere of worship.

Parishioners often conversed before they entered the church, but once they entered, there was absolute silence. Everyone knelt in prayer before Mass. I had five brothers and sisters. The boys all wore suits to church, the girl wore her Sunday dress. We would have thought it quite odd to hold hands during Mass, or to engage in a group hug. Anyone raising their hands in the orans posture would have drawn undue attention, we might assume they were non-Catholic, perhaps pentecostal.

I was glad when they started saying the Mass in English, but the original translations were awful; rather I should say that the awe was all gone, and God was just a buddy. When they started singing Simon and Garfunkel songs before Mass, I just laughed inside, but still never missed Mass. Fortunately we have recovered somewhat from most of the silliness.

 

[phil19034]

I’d love to have some kind of data on the number of altar boys who ultimately transitioned into the priesthood before girls were allowed to be altar servers. I have two daughters and on a personal level, I’m not going to push them in that direction precisely because I want boys who have an interest to step up. But I’ve seen many, many boys who seem to serve only because their parents are making them. Little reverence involved, inappropriate dress under the robe (one even wearing a t-shirt advertising hot sauce with a devil on it, which was completely visible ), minds wandering during Mass until they have to be reminded by the priest that their service is required, etc. It seems a bit overly simplistic to claim that this is all because girls also have been allowed to serve.

Why is Cardinal Burke speaking out about this now? What’s the goal of these sorts of statements?

I don’t think its a matter of what percentage of Altar Boys become priests, but more a question of what percentage of Priests were Altar Boys.

The majority of priests who enter the seminary after high school were altar boys. Most priests who were not altar boys entered the priesthood later in life, after their conversion.

If you diminish the number of Altar Boys, then the number of 18 to 21 year olds entering the seminary decreases.

Personally, I would much rather see parishes have Altar Boys and Legion of Mary prayer groups for girls. Altar Boy training should be focused on trying to recruit new priests and Legion of Mary focused on recruiting new nuns.

 

[JimG]

I don’t think its a matter of what percentage of Altar Boys become priests, but more a question of what percentage of Priests were Altar Boys.

The majority of priests who enter the seminary after high school were altar boys. Most priests who were not altar boys entered the priesthood later in life, after their conversion.

If you diminish the number of Altar Boys, then the number of 18 to 21 year olds entering the seminary decreases.

Personally, I would much rather see parishes have Altar Boys and Legion of Mary prayer groups for girls. Altar Boy training should be focused on trying to recruit new priests and Legion of Mary focused on recruiting new nuns.

I don’t think that the Legion of Mary has ever been a women only group. It is focused on the rosary and it’s own devotions. In our parish there is the Knights of the Holy Queen for boys, and Angels of the Holy Queen for girls.

 

[NeedsMercy]

Then you know the accusations you made were false.

Ummm, I didn’t accuse him of anything…

 

[on_the_hill]

I read the whole sad, sorry thing.

I concur with your characterization. I feel sorry for him, honestly.

 

[on_the_hill]

What the heck is an orans posture?

 

[ProVobis]

What the heck is an orans posture?

 

[JimG]

ProVobis:
And that photo (of the priest properly using an orans posture) depicts a rather moderate orans posture compared to some of the hand raising that I have seen among the congregation!

 

[on_the_hill]

And that photo (of the priest properly using an orans posture) depicts a rather moderate orans posture compared to some of the hand raising that I have seen among the congregation!

Huh. People don’t do that at our parish.

I imagine young women at Christian contemporary music praise celebrations doing that.

 

[ProVobis]

And that photo (of the priest properly using an orans posture) depicts a rather moderate orans posture compared to some of the hand raising that I have seen among the congregation!

A lot of that hand-raising seems to lead into hand-holding. And yet the IGMR/GIRM only prescribes orans for the priest. Who started it for the congregation is anyone’s guess.

 

[LisaA]

A lot of that hand-raising seems to lead into hand-holding. And yet the IGMR/GIRM only prescribes orans for the priest. Who started it for the congregation is anyone’s guess.

Don’t know but once I learned it was inappropriate for the congregation, I stopped. However I am not sure of a proper posture, folded hands and bowed head is what I usually do. I don’t think most parishioners are even aware. They see others doing it and follow suit.

BTW our church is one of those types mentioned ultra modern, round so we can “see each other” which is odd since the focus should be on the Altar and Christ. It is quite distracting and almost instinctive to look around and see who’s there. Also we have a couple of overly dramatic parishioners, one of whom insists on “signing” as well as singing. She always sits in front and is like driving past a car wreck…hard to turn away. It’s plain jane, all cement and wood. No statues, icons, art. Huge windows to let in the great outdoors but alas a group of fractious teens decided to “flash” the Mass in one of the floor to ceiling windows. It’s anything but feminine OTOH it’s also anything but beautiful.

 

[Darryl1958]

Raymond Burke is raising an excellent point of the absolute importance of fatherhood as being at the center of any vibrant church life. Fatherhood is always a choice in a way that motherhood is not. Men can choose whether or not to be a father to their family. But for a woman, the baby begins literally as a part of her own body and being.
At the centre of any moral and ethical church teaching is bringing men into the family, and in a word, the domestication of the man.

Altar girls are very dedicated, very mature in their duties, and do excellent work. With altar girls however, comes the clear message that boys are expendable. The male bonding that is such an important part of a boys life is no longer to be found in the Church. Instead, there is now Sunday football.

Girls on the other hand, would be in the church either way. There is always a special appeal to the domestic aspects of Mother Church that women find attractive.

 

[lerapt78]

So, by that theory, rape is a predominantly heterosexual predation problem? Even though we know rapists don’t rape because of the sex, but because the sex allows them to dominate?

I don’t buy the theory that neither forcible rape nor statutory rape (seduction or coercion) have anything to do with sex. Power/domination may certainly be an *element *of rape, but I reject the idea that it’s *only *about that.

It is a predation issue, but has nothing to do with sexual orientation. Molesters don’t molest because they are homosexual; they are molesters.

I agree that homosexual molesters don’t molest *because *they are homosexual (I don’t think anyone claimed this). However, it flies in the face of common sense to think that the abuser’s orientation has nothing whatsoever to do with the gender of the victims.

Another priest, a red-headed Scotsman, was talking before the final blessing after an OF Mass about some Joker who was putting anti-Catholic videos on Church goer’s windows.

“To all of you who got this video. I don’t want you to watch it. I want you to destroy it. Also, if anyone knows who this person is, tell me. I want to speak with him PERSONALLY.”

That’s awesome.

Finally, the church in America really doesn’t do much more than deliver lightweight teaching about “caring and sharing”. What does that mean in concrete terms? Nobody knows. “Life as moral challenge” really isn’t part of the message.

It’s what I usually hear as well. And I must confess, I have a tendency to go on autopilot when this is rehashed over and over in sermons. It sounds nice (cue, “feminine”), yes, but what does it mean?? I think many listeners crave something more concrete than that.

This is also my question.

For the people who say the mass is feminized, what do you think should be done?

What are the solutions?

Then please elaborate…

Basically, the charge is that the Church has become too effeminate, so men drop out.

Please provide concrete examples of how the modern Church has driven away men in favor of allowing a more women-centered environment, and possible solutions to rectify the situation.

I don’t think I could do better than podles.org/church-impotent.htm

Enjoy.

Unfortunately, I don’t have time to read an entire thesis on this topic.

For the time-pressed readers, I’ll offer some excerpts in a following post from a book that deals with this issue, entitled “Why Men Hate Going To Church” by David Murrow. I believe the author is a Protestant, but he quotes heavily from the Catholic author Podles to whom ProVobis refers. I’ll try to pick some excerpts that deal with the question of how the Church appears to be feminine, and what can be done to attract young men.