Cardinal Scola: Pope Francis will stand with tradition on marriage

  • Thread starter Thread starter _Abyssinia
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
Perhaps I should have phrased it “No one enforces the ban on receiving?”

It would be one thing for the Church to say “We’ll have an annulment decision within 6 months and until then you can receive the Sacraments if you are living as brother and sister.” But the Church might as well be saying “We’ll have a decision for you within 1-6 years and until then you can receive the Sacraments if you are living as brother and sister.”
Do you honestly believe it is possible for a married couple to live as brother and sister for an indeterminate length of time (likely to be years) without seriously damaging their marital relationship?
Well, yes, assuming both people understand the reasons, why wouldn’t it be possible? We’re not slaves to our impulses.

On this subject, Cardinal Napier said:

“Jesus didn’t say ‘I want the easiest cross to carry.’ He took what was coming. And I think that in many instances married people who find themselves in impossible situations – second-married people – are maybe just called to do that, to carry the cross with Christ.”

lifesitenews.com/news/why-not-communion-for-polygamists-if-we-give-it-to-divorced-and-remarried-s
 
Perhaps I should have phrased it “No one enforces the ban on receiving?”

It would be one thing for the Church to say “We’ll have an annulment decision within 6 months and until then you can receive the Sacraments if you are living as brother and sister.” But the Church might as well be saying “We’ll have a decision for you within 1-6 years and until then you can receive the Sacraments if you are living as brother and sister.”
Do you honestly believe it is possible for a married couple to live as brother and sister for an indeterminate length of time (likely to be years) without seriously damaging their marital relationship?
It is possible. Is it likely with a relatively young and vibrant couple? Probably not. But is it possible for anyone to go that long without committing a mortal sin? It’s possible but many spiritual directors will tell you that it’s not too likely either. Many admit to receiving while in the state of mortal sin.

There is no requirement to receive every week while at Mass. What does one gain while receiving without proper disposition? Sure one longs to receive whenever possible but what’s that old saying about absence making the heart grow fonder? Just a suggestion if one finds himself in a position where one shouldn’t be receiving.
 
Do you honestly believe it is possible for a married couple to live as brother and sister for an indeterminate length of time (likely to be years) without seriously damaging their marital relationship?
Not only is it possible, sometimes it is the most complete form of marital fidelity and love. I have known married people who have become incapacitated due to injury or illness. Some old, and some young. And it is really a testimony to marital love how a spouse can love, and live the vows. It is different than any other relationship. And deeper than even other family bonds. Sadly, we as a society have forgotten what marriage is and who it is between. It is more than a contract for placing someones genitals with another.

To become spiritually incapacitated for a length of time SHOULD be no different. And ultimately isn’t the spiritual health of the soul what the other spouse should be nurturing?
 
Perhaps I should have phrased it “No one enforces the ban on receiving?”

It would be one thing for the Church to say “We’ll have an annulment decision within 6 months and until then you can receive the Sacraments if you are living as brother and sister.” But the Church might as well be saying “We’ll have a decision for you within 1-6 years and until then you can receive the Sacraments if you are living as brother and sister.”
Do you honestly believe it is possible for a married couple to live as brother and sister for an indeterminate length of time (likely to be years) without seriously damaging their marital relationship?
This is just one couple, but while waiting for an annullment decision, abstained for 19 months and you can see what they have to say:

catholicsentinel.org/main.asp?SectionID=2&SubSectionID=35&ArticleID=27111
 
Do you honestly believe it is possible for a married couple to live as brother and sister for an indeterminate length of time (likely to be years) without seriously damaging their marital relationship?
Again, please strike the word “marital” and insert adulterous as it pertains to Catholic couples. Despite your lengthy description of a marriage, none of it applies to a union *not *sanctioned by God nor blessed according to His plan for humanity. Think of the word Covenant as explained by the Church. (I’m leaving the annulment issue aside in speaking right now, and of course, there are valid reasons for the Church to issue annulments without proclaiming an amnesty for first marriages.) I do understand the secular perspective which discounts the power and action of God Who continually calls us back to Himself, regardless the situation we have forced upon ourselves. Those who have purposefully placed themselves outside His grace are not open to His grace and therefore would most likely find abstinence an impossibility. But we need not be slaves to sin and I do not buy into the thinking that it is impossible for us to reject it for that would be completely contrary to the actual words of the gospel.

Here is a sad reality in todays society - personal sin is NOT acknowledged nor owned. If my first sacramental marriage fails and I choose another “spouse” fully understanding I am stepping outside the boundaries and cutting myself off from grace, it is my responsibility to accept the consequences of my choice. Look at the comments on these threads and count the number of times those in this situation proclaim “I made a mistake” and now the Church is punishing me. They may well have made a mistake; the complexities of marriage are too many to name, but did they fully utilize the grace which God promised that is particular to the sacrament ? Who knows? But let’s identify each circumstance for what it is. The secondary choice of “re-marrying” should not be identified as part of the mistake when the independent choice of living with another not graced by God is clearly *sin. *
 
Well, yes, assuming both people understand the reasons, why wouldn’t it be possible? We’re not slaves to our impulses.

On this subject, Cardinal Napier said:

“Jesus didn’t say ‘I want the easiest cross to carry.’ He took what was coming. And I think that in many instances married people who find themselves in impossible situations – second-married people – are maybe just called to do that, to carry the cross with Christ.”
Is it possible to refrain from intimacy for an indeterminate amount of time? Sure. Is it possible to do so without damaging the marital relationship? I’m not so sure and lean toward no.
It is possible. Is it likely with a relatively young and vibrant couple? Probably not. But is it possible for anyone to go that long without committing a mortal sin? It’s possible but many spiritual directors will tell you that it’s not too likely either. Many admit to receiving while in the state of mortal sin.

There is no requirement to receive every week while at Mass. What does one gain while receiving without proper disposition? Sure one longs to receive whenever possible but what’s that old saying about absence making the heart grow fonder? Just a suggestion if one finds himself in a position where one shouldn’t be receiving.
Thank you for understanding the reality of the situation many of us find ourselves in. I totally agree it’s possible, but as you say it’s really not very likely.

Yes, absence can make the heart grow fonder. It can also make the heart grow more distant and close it entirely. It’s been a struggle to stay the course and not jump ship to another denomination or none at all.

If anything will sour a person on the Catholic Church it’s the annulment process. Mostly because it’s very invasive (understandable) and takes a ridiculously long time (not understandable). I really don’t have a problem with the Church’s teachings re: marriage. I entirely agree that a marriage entered into freely with the proper understanding of the nature of marriage is an unbreakable lifetime vow. I do have a serious problem with how the Church handles annulment and reception of the Sacraments for those waiting. And waiting. And waiting. For years.
Not only is it possible, sometimes it is the most complete form of marital fidelity and love. I have known married people who have become incapacitated due to injury or illness. Some old, and some young. And it is really a testimony to marital love how a spouse can love, and live the vows. It is different than any other relationship. And deeper than even other family bonds. Sadly, we as a society have forgotten what marriage is and who it is between. It is more than a contract for placing someones genitals with another.

To become spiritually incapacitated for a length of time SHOULD be no different. And ultimately isn’t the spiritual health of the soul what the other spouse should be nurturing?
Well, that’s just the thing, isn’t it? How can the Church in one breath say we (using myself and DH as an example) aren’t truly married and in the other breath expect us to live the vows we took when getting not married?

HoosierDaddy, you’re an intelligent married man with children. You of all people should understand the mental and emotional bonds physical intimacy creates and how damaging it can be to sever those bonds. It’s so much more than placing Tab A into Slot B.

I’m really not arguing that the Church should change Her teachings. I am arguing that something has to give here. Either the Church needs to really fix the broken annulment process so that it functions in a somewhat reasonable time frame or She allow priests and/or Bishops to interview reverts and converts to determine invalidity of previous marriages and allow them to receive Sacraments while awaiting official decisions.
 
Again, please strike the word “marital” and insert adulterous as it pertains to Catholic couples. **Despite your lengthy description of a marriage, none of it applies to a union *not ***sanctioned by God nor blessed according to His plan for humanity. Think of the word Covenant as explained by the Church. (I’m leaving the annulment issue aside in speaking right now, and of course, there are valid reasons for the Church to issue annulments without proclaiming an amnesty for first marriages.) I do understand the secular perspective which discounts the power and action of God Who continually calls us back to Himself, regardless the situation we have forced upon ourselves. Those who have purposefully placed themselves outside His grace are not open to His grace and therefore would most likely find abstinence an impossibility. But we need not be slaves to sin and I do not buy into the thinking that it is impossible for us to reject it for that would be completely contrary to the actual words of the gospel.

Here is a sad reality in todays society - personal sin is NOT acknowledged nor owned. If my first sacramental marriage fails and I choose another “spouse” fully understanding I am stepping outside the boundaries and cutting myself off from grace, it is my responsibility to accept the consequences of my choice. Look at the comments on these threads and count the number of times those in this situation proclaim “I made a mistake” and now the Church is punishing me. They may well have made a mistake; the complexities of marriage are too many to name, but did they fully utilize the grace which God promised that is particular to the sacrament ? Who knows? But let’s identify each circumstance for what it is. The secondary choice of “re-marrying” should not be identified as part of the mistake when the independent choice of living with another not graced by God is clearly *sin. *
First, I find it insulting that you say my description of my marriage does not apply to a union not sanctioned by God. I live that description every day and have for the last 12 years. I can say without a doubt that my description applies to my marriage.

The action that places many divorced and remarried outside of God’s Grace was not done purposefully, you do understand that, yes? Many, perhaps most, of those who were not catholic or who were poorly instructed catholics or who fell away for a time and did not believe the Church’s teaching and who have married, divorced, and remarried truly believed they were doing nothing wrong or that would cut them off from God.

You say “If my first sacramental marriage fails and I choose another “spouse” fully understanding I am stepping outside the boundaries and cutting myself off from grace, it is my responsibility to accept the consequences of my choice.” and I agree. Yet what about those that A) had no full or even partial understanding or B) who were never in Sacramental marriages in the first place?

There does seem to be a tendency to keep saying “Catholic” and “Sacramental” when discussing marriage issues. You must understand that the majority who are having issues with remarriage and annulment were NOT catholic when they entered into their previous marriage(s) or their current marriages. They are mostly converts and/or those who want to marry a faithful catholic. These are people who were taught by their families, their society, and even their own faiths that divorce does, in fact, dissolve a marriage and that remarrying is not a problem. Because of those beliefs alone the person couldn’t contract a valid marriage according to the Church and yet they are held to the same standards and procedures used for those who were given understanding.

Additionally, there are a number of people who couldn’t have been in Sacramental marriages because our ex’s weren’t baptized. For people marrying civilly or in other faiths baptismal status doesn’t make any difference at all. In the Church, it does.
 
First, I find it insulting that you say my description of my marriage does not apply to a union not sanctioned by God. I live that description every day and have for the last 12 years. I can say without a doubt that my description applies to my marriage.
If you read my words, you will see I am *only *describing those Catholics married in the Church.
I’m really not arguing that the Church should change Her teachings. I am arguing that something has to give here. Either the Church needs to really fix the broken annulment process so that it functions in a somewhat reasonable time frame or She allow priests and/or Bishops to interview reverts and converts to determine invalidity of previous marriages and allow them to receive Sacraments while awaiting official decisions.
Fair enough…I now understand your point more fully.
 
Yes, absence can make the heart grow fonder. It can also make the heart grow more distant and close it entirely. It’s been a struggle to stay the course and not jump ship to another denomination or none at all.
Well, if you skip to another denomination, you will deprive yourself the other sacraments, such as confession and possibly a future valid Matrimony. One as a Catholic shouldn’t be saying one sacrament is more important than the others IMO.

But human nature is interesting, though, especially when it comes to receiving communion. It seems that those removed from it are more appreciative of its benefits than those who receive in a casual manner Mass after Mass. I appreciate the sacrament because I only receive after I have made a good confession.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top