Caritas Catholic Health System Will Refer for Abortions Not Do Them

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rpp said:
Your logic is faulty.

It is not cooperating in evil to pay taxes to the governemtn, even if there are unjust laws. Christ Himself made this clear when asked aboutpaying taxes to Rome, clearly a government which had many unjust laws. Have you never heard of sales tax? Property tax? Gas tax? Excise tax? Etc.? A person cannot live avoid taxes so please. So please stop this business about taxes and people quitting their jobs.
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Christ allowed paying taxes, but he didn’t say that its not remote cooperation with evil. Perhaps he allowed it in spite of it being remote cooperation with evil.
rpp said:
Paying taxes is clearly different than providing people with information on how to obtain an abortion.
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Well, its clearly different in some ways, but similarr in others. Let’s look at the specifics:
rpp said:
One major difference is that in the case of paying taxes, in the case of taxes, one is an unwilling and unwitting contributor, completely isolated from how the money is spent.
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The people paying taxes are willing - they could choose to quit their jobs and not pay taxes, just as the people at Caritas could choose to quit their jobs.

Unwitting - I don’t think you can claim you don’t know what is being done with your taxes.
rpp said:
The other is active and willing cooperation. One cannot sin by accident or in ignorance, however, one can be intentially ingonorant, which does not excuse them.
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A person who pays taxes isn’t active or willful? They are ignorant? Are you claiming to be ignorant of what happens with your taxes? Are you claiming that the people answering the phones at Caritas will that abortions occur more than you will that your tax money gets used for abortions? They’re just balancing the good and evil of cooperating with the system, much as you are. And they’re providing people with a phone number to a consumer hotline that those people could obtain anywhere else, so its unlikely to increase the numbers of abortions even by 1.
 
Neil_Anthony said:
Christ allowed paying taxes, but he didn’t say that its not remote cooperation with evil. Perhaps he allowed it in spite of it being remote cooperation with evil.

Well, its clearly different in some ways, but similarr in others. Let’s look at the specifics:

The people paying taxes are willing - they could choose to quit their jobs and not pay taxes, just as the people at Caritas could choose to quit their jobs.

Unwitting - I don’t think you can claim you don’t know what is being done with your taxes.

A person who pays taxes isn’t active or willful? They are ignorant? Are you claiming to be ignorant of what happens with your taxes? Are you claiming that the people answering the phones at Caritas will that abortions occur more than you will that your tax money gets used for abortions? They’re just balancing the good and evil of cooperating with the system, much as you are. And they’re providing people with a phone number to a consumer hotline that those people could obtain anywhere else, so its unlikely to increase the numbers of abortions even by 1.
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Cute how you edited out the part of my post which clearly demonstrates the silliness of your “quit your job to avoid taxes” concept.

Your position is not logical. Nor is it consistent which Church teachings.

Oh gosh! I finally get it

You are not really being serious! I know you are not serious about this because I know from your previous posts on CAF that you are generally intelligent and well informed. That conclusively proves that this whole line of reasoning of yours can only be togue-in-cheek. In fact, I will even bet that you will insist you are not trying to be humorous, but then I suppose there are times when we all faiul to notice when we have taken a joke too far.
 
rpp said:
Cute how you edited out the part of my post which clearly demonstrates the silliness of your “quit your job to avoid taxes” concept.

Your position is not logical. Nor is it consistent which Church teachings.

Oh gosh! I finally get it

You are not really being serious! I know you are not serious about this because I know from your previous posts on CAF that you are generally intelligent and well informed. That conclusively proves that this whole line of reasoning of yours can only be togue-in-cheek. In fact, I will even bet that you will insist you are not trying to be humorous, but then I suppose there are times when we all faiul to notice when we have taken a joke too far.
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I think its comparable to these situations:

Someone works for the phone company, and gets a directory assistance call for an abortion mill. Do you give out the number or do you quit your job to avoid cooperating with evil? WHat if you have kids relying on your salary?

What if you support your family as a bus driver. Someone asks you if this is the bus that goes to the abortion mill. Do you refuse to let them on, and lose your job?

THe way I see the Caritas situation, if someone calls and says “I would like to get an abortion” they will say “sorry, this is a Catholic organization, and we don’t perform abortions. You will have to seek them from another place. Here is a phone number for a consumer hotline that can help you find an abortion clinic.”

The involvement is very minor and remote.
 
Neil_Anthony said:
I think its comparable to these situations:

Someone works for the phone company, and gets a directory assistance call for an abortion mill. Do you give out the number or do you quit your job to avoid cooperating with evil? WHat if you have kids relying on your salary?

What if you support your family as a bus driver. Someone asks you if this is the bus that goes to the abortion mill. Do you refuse to let them on, and lose your job?

THe way I see the Caritas situation, if someone calls and says “I would like to get an abortion” they will say “sorry, this is a Catholic organization, and we don’t perform abortions. You will have to seek them from another place. Here is a phone number for a consumer hotline that can help you find an abortion clinic.”

The involvement is very minor and remote.
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:rotfl:

See, I knew that there were people who do not realize they have taken a joke too far!
 
Neil_Anthony said:
This is very dissapointing.

But I don’t think we should judge them. They faced a decision to get government money to provide medical care to the poor, but it came with the requirement that they refer for abortions. Anyone who wants an abortion can easily find a place that gives abortion - all they have to do is look in the phone book or on the internet. They decided to remotely co-operate with evil in order to do a greater good.

Almost everyone reading this does the same thing: we accept our paychecks even though a portion is taxed and given to agencies who perform abortions. We could choose to stop working, but we don’t, because we have to choose between two imperfect choices.

Also, this gives the agency or its employees a chance possibly to offer pro-life information to women seeking abortion.
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catharina said:
Below are listed the ethicists at the NCBC.
It seems only one is a priest.

STAFF ETHICISTS
MARIE T. HILLIARD, R.N., Ph.D., J.C.L.
Director of Bioethics and Public Policy
Click Here to Email
215-877-2660 x236

STEPHEN R. NAPIER, Ph.D.
Click Here to Email
215-877-2660, x238

REV. ALFRED CIOFFI, S.T.D., Ph.D.
Click Here to Email
215-877-2660, x235

So I wrote to him (email) as follows:

Dear Father, I’ve singled you out for my appeal based solely on the fact of your priesthood.

I beg you and your confreres to stand with the Church and disallow the venture that would partner Caritas Healthcare with an abortion-provider. Some years past, the late (and great) Cardinal Bernardin of Chicago established a stand-off with the Sisters of Mercy (RSMs), insisting that if they joined Mercy Hospital and Medical Center with a non-Catholic, abortion-providing, local hospital they would lose the ranking of Mercy Hospital etc., as CATHOLIC. Those Sisters, (who are/were) far more stubborn than most, at last threw in their cards and stopped the merger TWO DAYS before the union was to take effect.

Please. This situation is a no-brainer. I’m a 63 yr-old Roman Catholic who has ever supported pro-life work.

God bless you and guide you in this situation. signed, etc…
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Have you gotten an answer? And so far as I know, O’Malley hasn’t completed his examination of conscience yet. :rolleyes:
 
rpp said:
You are not really being serious! I know you are not serious about this because I know from your previous posts on CAF that you are generally intelligent and well informed. That conclusively proves that this whole line of reasoning of yours can only be togue-in-cheek. In fact, I will even bet that you will insist you are not trying to be humorous, but then I suppose there are times when we all faiul to notice when we have taken a joke too far.
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I’m not joking - but perhaps I’m wrong.

It’s just that when I see a Bishop or Cardinal or a catholic order doing something questionable, I try to understand and justify it to myself. In this case I was able to find a justification and wanted to share it.

And in my own life I feel like I’ve compromised with abortion by paying taxes, I’ve toyed with the idea of living in complete poverty to avoid paying taxes that will be used for abortion, and decided against it. So I feel some solidarity with other people who face questions like this where they feel torn about cooperating in a small way with a great evil.

And maybe I’m wrong that the referrals here are very remote and small way of cooperating. I was just giving an opinion to try to help people see that this cardinal isn’t necessarily evil. He is a successor of the apostles after all.
 
When abortion first became legal decades ago, our saintly parish priest told us, if you give someone a dime to call an abortion clinic, or allow them to use your phone to call a clinic ,or give them a ride to an abortion clinic you are guilty of enabling them, and will be judge by God as such, and you may not receive communion
 
redrosetea said:
When abortion first became legal decades ago, our saintly parish priest told us, if you give someone a dime to call an abortion clinic, or allow them to use your phone to call a clinic ,or give them a ride to an abortion clinic you are guilty of enabling them, and will be judge by God as such, and you may not receive communion
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Sounds like a priest who understood what “cooperating in sin” really means. A good priest.
 
meerkat, I must ask you about the quote you’ve placed as “signature.”

I’m not looking to quarrel with you. However I’m not at all familiar with the quote you’ve attributed to St. Catherine Laboure. I’m quite familiar with the life and biography of Catherine Laboure. Yet the quote you’re using is unknown to me - at least as a quote from Sister Catherine Laboure.

"One must see God in everyone.
-----------------St. Catherine Laboure------------"

It so surprised me that I googled it and although I found a number of religious blogs and commentaries that mention such a quote, I could find no real (legitimate) documentation linking the quote to St. Catherine. A number of google results even give credit for the quote to various Hindu swamis. Can you provide any hard evidence that links the quote to St. Catherine Laboure? Thank you.
 
catharina said:
meerkat, I must ask you about the quote you’ve placed as “signature.”

I’m not looking to quarrel with you. However I’m not at all familiar with the quote you’ve attributed to St. Catherine Laboure. I’m quite familiar with the life and biography of Catherine Laboure. Yet the quote you’re using is unknown to me - at least as a quote from Sister Catherine Laboure.

"One must see God in everyone.
-----------------St. Catherine Laboure------------"

It so surprised me that I googled it and although I found a number of religious blogs and commentaries that mention such a quote, I could find no real (legitimate) documentation linking the quote to St. Catherine. A number of google results even give credit for the quote to various Hindu swamis. Can you provide any hard evidence that links the quote to St. Catherine Laboure? Thank you.
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My evidence is LOVE :angel1: I’m not on this forum to argue! This is the link I found the quote if you really want to know catholictradition.org/Saints/saintly-quotes.htm
 
Neil_Anthony said:
I’m not joking - but perhaps I’m wrong.

It’s just that when I see a Bishop or Cardinal or a catholic order doing something questionable, I try to understand and justify it to myself. In this case I was able to find a justification and wanted to share it.

And in my own life I feel like I’ve compromised with abortion by paying taxes, I’ve toyed with the idea of living in complete poverty to avoid paying taxes that will be used for abortion, and decided against it. So I feel some solidarity with other people who face questions like this where they feel torn about cooperating in a small way with a great evil.

And maybe I’m wrong that the referrals here are very remote and small way of cooperating. I was just giving an opinion to try to help people see that this cardinal isn’t necessarily evil. He is a successor of the apostles after all.
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:hug3:
 
meerkat said:
My evidence is LOVE :angel1: I’m not on this forum to argue! This is the link I found the quote if you really want to know catholictradition.org/Saints/saintly-quotes.htm
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Thank you for providing a link. I spent about 15 minutes on the site. Although its slant is not blatant, it presents articles that are in full support of the rupture and disobedience of M. Lefebvre. That’s much too much for me. I quetioned the words attributed to St. Catherine Laboure because her life is so well documented. She lived so recently. Despite the magnificent graces given to her, her lived life was of the quiet and private devotion of service to the poor, caring for elderly men in Community settings. She gave no time to public speaking ever. If the quote can be attributed to her bigraphers, her confessor, her Sisters, then I would like to hear about it but I can’t accept it from the very skewed website you linked here. It’s a controversial site, not known for fidelity to Church Teaching. Thanks for your efforts though. I’m glad that quote is gone from your posts.
 
Some people are ready to stone Cardinal Sean for something that has not happened. This was his official statement just this week on the relationship between Caritas Catholic Health System and the State.

** ”While I appreciate the opportunity given to Caritas Christi to serve the poor through this agreement, I wish to reaffirm that this agreement can only be realized if the moral obligations for Catholic hospitals as articulated in the Ethical and Religious Directives of the United States Conference of Catholic Bishops are fulfilled at all times and in all cases. In order to assure me that this agreement will provide for the integrity of the Catholic identity and practices of Caritas Christi Health Care System, I have asked the National Catholic Bioethics Center to review the agreement and to assure me that it is faithful to Catholic principles.”**http://www.bostoncatholic.org/Cardinals-Corner/Blog/Cardinal-Sean-Blog.aspx?id=174

As we can see in this statement, the Cardinal has not agreed to anything, yet. He is having the agreement studied by an objective review team from the Catholic Bioethics Center.

I have no idea where the leak came that this was a done deal. Given that Cardina Sean is one of the most orthodox friars in the country, along with Archbishop Chaput, both of whom are Capuchin Francisans from the same house and province, I would venture to say that I find it highly doubtful that Cardinal Sean would agree to anything that is in conflict with Catholic moral teaching.

Fraternally,

JR 🙂
 
Neil_Anthony said:
I can imagine a situation where a communist regime arrests someone and says “give this phone number for directory assistance to that pregnant woman who wants an abortion, so she can call and get the phone number of the abortion clinic, or i’ll kill 100 innocent children”. Then of course by your logic you would have to say “No, i will not give her the phone number for 4-1-1, go ahead and kill those 100 innocent children, the blood will be on your hands, I will keep my conscience clean! I will not give her the number for 4-1-1!”

I don’t think that’s the right thing to do. Refusing to cooperate with evil even when its very remote cooperation, when the alternative good is very great, can be wrong.

We could all reduce our cooperation with abortion by quitting our jobs, because our income tax funds abortions. But most of us don’t do that, because the good that comes from being able to provide for our needs and the needs of our families outweighs it.

The good Cardinal decided that the good of curing the poor outweighs remote cooperation with evil by giving out the number for a consumer hotline, where the person could ask for abortion information. It’s not even the number for an abortion clinic.
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I don’t think the Cardinal has made a definite decision to remain associated with Caritas. At Least I haven’t heard of it. Perhaps he is dilly dallying and delaying his answer like many of the other clergy here in the US in hopes we forget all about it. Busy lives, you know?? If he takes a stance and boots Caritas out from being sponsered by the Boston Diocese, I apologize in advance. Let’s wait and see what happens.

lifenews.com/state3938.html
LIFE SITE NEWS ( I believe the date was around Mar. 10, 2009)

C. J. Doyle of the Catholic Action League of Massachusetts criticized Caritas for telling the Commonwealth Health Insurance Connector Authority Board that women will have “ready access” to abortion.
He called the contract “a significant defeat for the pro-life movement, inflicted not by secular society, but by the Catholic Church in Boston.”
“What remains of the Catholic character of Caritas Christi has now been fatally compromised," he told LifeNews.com.

Anne Fox, president of Massachusetts Citizens for Life
“We have great respect for their position in the past, but given the statements, further clarification is necessary, in spite of what the cardinal said,” she responded.

Fox noted statements from Centene that the joint venture would include abortions and said O’Malley “has given a guarantee that I don’t think he is capable of giving, given what they have said in public.”

ACTION: Contact Caritas Christi and urge it not to begin doing abortions or referring for them. Caritas Christi Health Care,
736 Cambridge Street, Boston, MA 02135, (p) 617-789-2500, CCR.Webmaster@CaritasChristi.org
 
Fox noted statements from Centene that the joint venture would include abortions and said O’Malley "has given a guarantee that I don’t think he is capable of giving, given what they have said in public."

I posted the quote from Centene on Cardinal Sean’s blog and it my post was removed.😦 I wonder if this is another case of Cardinal Sean trying to look good to orthodox Catholics while letting non orthodox Catholics do what they want to do.

One of the posters said that Cardinal Sean was very orthodox yet he petitioned Rome to allow women’s feet to be washed at Easter when the instructions say very clearly ‘viri’ -men. It seems to me that the cardinal was trying to have a bet each way and let Rome be blamed if they forbade the washing of women’s feet by one group and be blamed if they gave permission for the washing of women’s feet by another group and either way his hands were clean.
 
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