Carnivores in God's ceation

[Mary_Gail_36]

An antelopes lack of self awareness in no way diminishes the pain felt as it’s being ripped apart by a big cat. We see many specialized predatory carnivores on this planet, the question is would a benevolent deity create these creatures

This is an interesting thread.

I am not a biologist or zoologist, but after watching various nature programs, Lions don’t feed until the prey is dead. Usually prey is strangled, or its neck is broken. The death is pretty quick. It always seems to me that most antelopes get away.

Lions only eat once a day, and then sleep most of the day. Also Lion populations are dependent on Antelope populations. There are always significantly more antelope than lions. If the lions didn’t eat because of a food shortage, then wouldn’t they feel more pain than the antelope?

---

The idea is that God made human beings in His image and likeness. He also gave us the 10 commandments. Thou shalt not kill, is something that doesn’t apply to animals. It applies to us and our relationship to each other.

Unless an animal is sick with rabies, they normally just kill enough to eat There are not too many lion rampages where they go off and kill antelopes just for fun, and then waste the food.

 

[redhen]

You have suggested alternatives?

You and I would not be alive if the world did not work the way it does.
Without change there is no life.
What you call death & decay are life and a feast to a bacterium

Are you going to stamp your foot next and say it’s not fair?

No, I will stomp my foot and say a benevolent deity did not create this.

So you think you should be able to understand a deity?Wow!
No wonder you are disappointed

I am not allowed to have thoughts? I could quote you the corpus of theological books prescribed for undergraduate theological students, reams of papers speculating on the nature of God.

But calling nature cold and indifferent is as much anthropomorphizing as calling it evil

I’ve seen this word bandied about here to swat my suggestions, as in “don’t anthropomorphise animals”. The thing is I’m not. Pain is not unique to homo sapiens.

If anything we are anthropomorphising God, the Bible gives him such human qualities as jealousy, hatred, fear, love, etc.

Nature is cold and indifferent, period. It has no moral preferences or aversions.

 

[txsoldier94]

[QUOTENature is cold and indifferent, period. It has no moral preferences or aversions.
[/QUOTE]

Exactly…nature has little to do with benevolence or malevolence…Nature is as God intended. Benevolence and malevolence has to do with our immortal souls…not temporal life.

As far as what God intended us to eat, if he wanted us to not kill animals and eat them, why was Abel’s gift of the slaughtered animal accepted, but Cain’s gift of the fruits of his garden not accepted?

3 And it came to pass after many days, that Cain offered, of the fruits of the earth, gifts to the Lord. 4 Abel also offered of the firstlings of his flock, and of their fat: and the Lord had respect to Abel, and to his offerings. 5 But to Cain and his offerings he had no respect: and Cain was exceedingly angry, and his countenance fell.

Genesis 4:3-5

Mik

 

[stevescribb]

When we raise animals for food , we should treat them humanely and kill them as quickly and painlessly as possible. I know in the real world, that doesn’t always happen and I am disturbed when I hear of cases of cruelty.

But animals can be pretty cruel as well. Lions and ground squirrels commit infanticide. Lions, mice and many other animals can be cannibalistic when the opportunity presents itself. Of coarse, humans have become prey to other animals as well. Chimpanzees have been known to single an individual out of the group, gang up on him, rip his limbs and genitalia off and bite the entire windpipe and throat off of the unfortunate. Orangutans forcibly rape females of their kind.

Some scientists say the reason the human brain grew so quickly was because of protein.

I have heard that many of the prey species go into shock when captured and don’t really feel significant pain. I can’t produce any evidence , however at this time. And just a correction, there are quite a few species that don’t bother killing their prey, they just start the feast.

I understand and respect the OP’s opinion, but I don’t tell God he is not benevolent because his creation works like it does. Life ain’t fair! Please don’t tell God you don’t believe in him just because you don’t like his natural laws. We are spiritual, but as I said in my first post on this, we are animals too! Mammals! We owe our very existence to God, so I’m not going to question his “motives.” Maybe we all will have a better understanding of God’s natural laws if we are fortunate enough to see him. We have been given but a fraction of revealed truths and we can’t even understand completely what’s on our plate now. Truth, we can’t handle the truth! At least all of it right now. Again, some interesting points of views have been posted here. I still suggest politely that you may want to become a vegan if being a carnivore bothers you.

The only thing that upsets me right now concerning the treatment of animals is that our younger, bored generation has taken to driving down country roads at night and capping cows and horses. Oh, would I love to get a hold of those people! :banghead:

Yours in Christ

 

[redhen]

Exactly…nature has little to do with benevolence or malevolence…Nature is as God intended. Benevolence and malevolence has to do with our immortal souls…not temporal life.

But this violence and pain in nature we see is exactly what you would expect from an ecosystem that evolved without a deity.

simonyi.ox.ac.uk/dawkins/WorldOfDawkins-archive/Dawkins/Work/Articles/1995-05-10nomercy.shtml

It is easy to imagine a. gene that, say, tranquillises gazelles when they are about to suffer a killing bite. Would such a gene be favoured by natural selection? Not unless the act of tranquillising a gazelle improved that gene’s chances of being propagated into future generations. It is hard to see why this should be so and we may therefore guess that gazelles suffer horrible pain and fear when they are pursued to the death - as most of them eventually are.

The total amount of suffering per year in the natural world is beyond all decent contemplation. During the minute that it takes me to compose this sentence, thousands of animals are being eaten alive, others are running for their lives, whimpering with fear, others are being slowly devoured from within by rasping parasites, thousands of all kinds are dying of starvation, thirst and disease. It must be so.

He extends this to human tragedy, in this case a school bus accident:

In a universe of blind physical forces and genetic replication, some people are going to get hurt, other people are going to get lucky, and you won’t find any rhyme or reason in it, or any justice. The universe that we observe has precisely the properties we should expect if there is, at bottom, no design, no purpose, no evil and no good, nothing but blind, pitiless indifference. As that unhappy poet A E Housman put it:

For Nature, heartless, witless
Nature
Will neither know nor care.

 

[1ke]

But this violence and pain in nature we see is exactly what you would expect from an ecosystem that evolved without a deity.

Not at all.

It is what YOU think a world without a deity would look like.

It is not at all what I think regarding the design of the world. It’s marvelously designed down to the last detail.

 

[redhen]

Not at all.

It is what YOU think a world without a deity would look like.

It is not at all what I think regarding the design of the world. It’s marvelously designed down to the last detail.

Including the bacteria that causes leprosy, the ebola virus, and all the other pathogens, meaning literally to give birth to suffering?

 

[pete_29]

If there were no suffering, how could there be happiness. I mean, if there were no suffering, you would be happy all the time right, but how would you know you were happy without something to gauge your happiness against. So could you truly be happy?

 

[1ke]

Including the bacteria that causes leprosy, the ebola virus, and all the other pathogens, meaning literally to give birth to suffering?

Yes.

 

[txsoldier94]

redhen,

Then for you, so long as any creature suffers, there can be no proof for God? I am just trying to make sure I understand your views.

Life is not fair, its not meant to be fair so what?

Its no more fair to us, than it is for the animals. Again, so what?

This is a fallen world…sin and suffering are here…we must place our faith in Him and do the best we can.

For a biblical view, read Job.

Mik

 

[redhen]

Then for you, so long as any creature suffers, there can be no proof for God? I am just trying to make sure I understand your views.

Not counting accidents, but yes, creatures designed purposely to inflict pain and death, i.e. pathogens, carnivores.

This is a fallen world…sin and suffering are here…we must place our faith in Him and do the best we can.For a biblical view, read Job. Mik

So there was no physical pain before the fall, in that case explain carnivorous dinosaurs?

Job? God tormenting some poor guy over a bet with Satan?

Nice story.

 

[Joe_Kelley]

When faced with tragedy there are two possible responses:

1. There cannot be a God Who allows this.

or

1. There must be a God, Who will make sense of all this.

Free will allows us to make our choice, and accept the consequences.

 

[txsoldier94]

Animals are animals. There is no cruelty in a predator taking its prey. Cruelty implies a conscious decision to inflict pain for its own sake.

The cases you cite, pathogens and predators, are just doing what they do. What difference when the predators began to eat other animals, be it after the Fall or before…

It is not necessary for us to fully understand the world…we are not God to encompass in our feeble (next to God’s) minds all of His creation. We are tasked with loving Him, and our neighbor and doing what we can to make this life better for those around us.

Mik

 

[Parysa]

Lovely. I guess that explains Lev:1-9 “And the priest shall burn them upon the altar for a holocaust, and a sweet savour to the Lord.”

Still, animal (or human) sacrifice does not answer the problem of having created predatory carnivores in the first place. For that matter, we may as well throw in bacteria, viruses, parasites and other deadly pathogens. These are all God’s creatures, right?

But these weren’t in place before the fall. Illness is a result of sin.

Thanks to all who replied. After some more searching on theodicy I think I can summarize the arguments as:

1. before the fall all creatures were herbivores, including T-Rex and lions.

2)** I am misunderstanding the word benevolent.** Parasites, pathogens and carnivores are there to thin the herd which is a good thing. Apparently animals don’t feel pain, and blood makes the grass grow.

1. Other species don’t have immortal souls and so should be given no further regard.

Where does God claim to be benevolent? I’ve always heard this, but never seen it for myself. I think the problem is that you’re looking at this with a watered-down, PC, rose-colored glasses, view of God. God isn’t some pansy weakling who skips around spreading flower petals and ooshy gooshy feel-good juice. God is tough. God is wild (not to be read as “out-of-control”). God is violent. The Bible says God knows when the sparrow falls, not that He grieves for it. That doesn’t mean that God is not also good or loving or merciful. But he’s not just good and loving and merciful. “For every action, there is an equal and opposite reaction.” That pretty much sums up the earth. There is good (God) and there is evil (Satan). Life and death. Joy and sadness, pain and pleasure, the list goes on and on. God created the world to work in a cycle. Birth, life, death. Yeah, sometimes that death is violent. But why does our society seem to think that there’s some sort of inherent right for it not to be that way? Why would there be?

No, I will stomp my foot and say a benevolent deity did not create this.

Then who or what did, since you have all the answers?

If anything we are anthropomorphising God, the Bible gives him such human qualities as jealousy, hatred, fear, love, etc.
Nature is cold and indifferent, period. It has no moral preferences or aversions.

Actually, GOD gives himself those qualities. We are created in His image, so yeah, He’d have human qualities.

Including the bacteria that causes leprosy, the ebola virus, and all the other pathogens, meaning literally to give birth to suffering?

Again, caused by the Fall. These things are temporary. You seem to want a Santa Claus God and that’s just not the truth of who He is.

 

[redhen]

Where does God claim to be benevolent? I’ve always heard this, but never seen it for myself. I think the problem is that you’re looking at this with a watered-down, PC, rose-colored glasses, view of God. God isn’t some pansy weakling who skips around spreading flower petals and ooshy gooshy feel-good juice. God is tough. God is wild (not to be read as “out-of-control”). God is violent.

Again, caused by the Fall. These things are temporary. You seem to want a Santa Claus God and that’s just not the truth of who He is.

So basically, you’re worshiping a Semitic storm god?

 

[steveandersen]

Not counting accidents, but yes, creatures designed purposely to inflict pain and death, i.e. pathogens, carnivores.

You know full well (or should) that they are not designed to inflict pain and death
Those are secondary consequences of Life

So there was no physical pain before the fall, in that case explain carnivorous dinosaurs?

Job? God tormenting some poor guy over a bet with Satan?

Nice story.

Oh, so that is what that story is about. And here I was thinking it was about something else.

And is Noah the story of a boat ride with animals?

 

[Jzyehoshua]

From Tyrannosaurus Rex to Panthera leo (lions) I just don’t see how carnivores that need to rend other animals to shreds and eat them alive could have been created by a loving, benevolent deity.

This is a show stopper for me.

Are there any meaningful apologetics for this?

Here’s a short answer:

God didn’t create them that way. According to the Bible, God made all His creations originally herbivores/vegetarians:

Genesis 1:29 And God said, Behold, I have given you every herb bearing seed, which is upon the face of all the earth, and every tree, in the which is the fruit of a tree yielding seed; to you it shall be for meat.
30 And to every beast of the earth, and to every fowl of the air, and to every thing that creepeth upon the earth, wherein there is life, I have given every green herb for meat: and it was so.

Perhaps after the fall of mankind and the world by Adam and Eve’s sin, creatures began hunting one another, but not until after the flood did God condone the eating of animals by human beings.

Genesis 9:3 Every moving thing that liveth shall be meat for you; even as the green herb have I given you all things.
4 But flesh with the life thereof, which is the blood thereof, shall ye not eat.

 

[txsoldier94]

I’ll say again, God’s benevolence extends only to the immortal nature of our souls, not to our temporal existence.

Pain and suffering (for humans) can have redemptive value…for animals its just a way of life.

Mik

 

[redhen]

Here’s a short answer:
God didn’t create them that way. According to the Bible, God made all His creations originally herbivores/vegetarians:

Then how do you explain carnivorous dinosaurs, long before the evolution of hominids?

 

[steveandersen]

Here’s a short answer:

God didn’t create them that way. According to the Bible, God made all His creations originally herbivores/vegetarians:

Maybe but according to the evidence things have been feeding on each other for a long time.

This highlights the allegorical portions of Genesis.