Catechism of the Catholic Church Paragraph 841?!?

[Badaliyyah]

The Church does not say that they worship the same God. It says they PROFESS to worship the same God. IF you look deeper into the Church’s teachings, the Allah of Islam is considered a limited and flawed understanding of GOd.

It says they claim (profess) Abraham. It also says that with us they worship and adore one and the same God. Obviously the first statement is meant to at once acknowledge what Muslims hold and express Christian distance from it, because Catholics do not think Abraham was a Muslim. The second statement though is not qualified. Catholics and Muslims are said to worship the same God. (NA actually goes a bit further than this, but it is the same idea).

You are correct though that this does not mean that because they worship the same God as Catholics do that they are therefore saved.

The church makes it sound as though they are teaching ‘the plan of salvation includes the muslims’…meaning that Muslims will be saved.

All this means is that they have a particularly close relationship to the plan of salvation history, because of their relation to Abraham, the Prophets, Jesus, etc. This is not a statement about the salvation of Muslims. It is not a meaningless statement, because they clearly have a different historical relation to Christianity than does, e.g., Hinduism.

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In many ways Nostra Aetate (on which the CCC statements about Islam and other religions are based) is a very conservative document. It basically repeats, unalternated, even if it is in different language, the old medieval distinctions between pagans (polytheists), the infidel Muslims, the perfidious Jews, and (later) the heretical Protestants. Notice the text of NA, with regards to other religions, moves exactly in that order.

On a different note, the statements proclaiming that we worship the same God as Muslims, can basically be found in Thomas Aquinas (among others), and is a long held view among Christians. Nothing particularly innovative there and it is never meant in such a way as to suggest indifference between Catholicism and Islam.

salaam.

 

[ralphinal]

I have attempted to explain Jesus to some Muslims before, and the ones I talked to about it were very hostile. If they refuse to hear its the same as rejecting.

Matthew 10:14 And whosoever shall not receive you, nor hear your words: going forth out of that house or city shake off the dust from your feet.
Matthew 10:15 Amen I say to you, it shall be more tolerable for the land of Sodom and Gomorrha in the day of judgment, than for that city.

That is actually a different scenario then the one we were discussing earlier. In this case, the Muslim in question refuses to be exposed to the Truth. Earlier, the issue was if they HAD been exposed at all.

 

[firstmode]

The Hindus see Jesus as an Avatar, a form of Krishna, that Jesus moved to India, got married, had children, was not crucified. THIS IS EXACTLY WHAT MUSLIMS BELIEVE WHEN IT COMES TO WHERE CHRIST WENT AFTER THE FALSE CRUCIFIXION. Many Buddhists believe this as well.

That means Hindus, Buddhist, AND Muslims are saved.

Jehovah’s Witness believe in Abraham, the prophets, the gospels, Christ Crucified, yet they see him as a lesser God apart from Jehova.

That means that Jehovah’s Witnesses are saved also.

The Mormons believe that Jesus is the crucified Son of God that died on the Cross for our sins and that through his spilled blood, our sins are cleansed. They believe that the Father was a man, like you and me once, and that he had ascended to Godhood from his “father” in heaven, who was a greater “father” than he. So our Father supposedly has another “father” that begot him going back to infinity to the first “father” making a huge number of “fathers” or god’s of their own universe.

The Mormons are also saved.

The new age movement combines beliefs from Hindus, Shintoism, Jainism, Buddhism, and they also believe that Jesus was a great man, teacher, and profit, that he may or may have not been crucified or moved to India and had a family, but that he did not rise from the dead just like Muslims, Buddhists, and Hindus.

Anyone that believes Jesus was or is are all saved.

Wow, that is so great! Everyone is saved! That whole Narrow and Crooked path, the path less traveled thing Jesus was talking about was just rubbish!

I cannot believe that the Catholic Church teaches Unitarian Universalism!!! BLASPHEMY!

John 3:16-18

16"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son,[a] that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. 17For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. 18Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son.

 

[Roman_Catholic_1]

Interesting discussion guys.

For those non-Catholic Christians, do you believe that Jewish people and Christians worship the same God?

God bless

Bueller?.. Bueller?..

 

[firstmode]

Romans 1:18-22 (New International Version)

God’s Wrath Against Mankind
18The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of men who suppress the truth by their wickedness, 19since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. 20For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse.

21For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened. 22Although they claimed to be wise, they became fools

God gives everyone a chance to come to know him, but after Christ crucified, Jesus is the ONLY way.

Acts 17:26-28 (New International Version)
26From one man he made every nation of men, that they should inhabit the whole earth; and he determined the times set for them and the exact places where they should live. 27God did this so that men would seek him and perhaps reach out for him and find him, though he is not far from each one of us. 28’For in him we live and move and have our being.’ As some of your own poets have said, ‘We are his offspring.’

 

[firstmode]

Bueller?.. Bueller?..

Yes, they worship the Father, Deny the Trinity, Deny Christ Crucified, see is redeeming blood as a waste product spilled on the ground to be mopped up and cleaned up.

The Jews will be saved, whichever Jews are ALIVE when Christ comes back and they realize their denial of the Messiah, all of Israel WHO ARE ALIVE TO SEE THIS will be saved at this time, because they will then finally accept the savior.

Yes, all of Israel, all the Jews will be saved, ALL OF THEM, when they accept the messiah at the 2nd coming of Christ, Not a moment before.

 

[Gottle_of_Geer]

This issue ought to be a FAQ IMO.​

 

[Roman_Catholic_1]

Yes, they worship the Father, Deny the Trinity, Deny Christ Crucified, see is redeeming blood as a waste product spilled on the ground to be mopped up and cleaned up.

The Jews will be saved, whichever Jews are ALIVE when Christ comes back and they realize their denial of the Messiah, all of Israel WHO ARE ALIVE TO SEE THIS will be saved at this time, because they will then finally accept the savior.

Yes, all of Israel, all the Jews will be saved, ALL OF THEM, when they accept the messiah at the 2nd coming of Christ, Not a moment before.

A different non-Catholic Christian stated this:

Paragraph 841 is just simply heresy, plain and simple.

According to Jesus those who reject him are condemned. According to numerous teachings from the Church those who reject Jesus are condemned. Muslims clearly reject Jesus**(As do Jewish people)**. Just that fresh air from Vatican II stinking yet again.

Emphasis mine

So which is it?

God bless

 

[Hypothesis]

Could you please show me where Thomas Aquinas said that Christians and Muslims worshipped the same God?

Maybe I am just confused because I always thought us christians worshipped Jesus. I have never seen a Muslim worshipping Jesus.

 

[firstmode]

A different non-Catholic Christian stated this:

Emphasis mine

So which is it?

God bless

I tried to make it clear in my post and I failed.

Jews will be saved if they accept Jesus is the messiah. Not all the Jews, but the ones that are alive and accept the Messiah.

The Bible prophecy that Israel will turn back to God through the messiah when Christ comes back. They will realize how they denied the messiah and will weep for days with how wrong they have been. Those Jews will be saved, those specific ones that accept the Messiah, much like the Jews for Christ and messianic Jews of today.

 

[Roman_Catholic_1]

I tried to make it clear in my post and I failed.

Jews will be saved if they accept Jesus is the messiah. Not all the Jews, but the ones that are alive and accept the Messiah.

The Bible prophecy that Israel will turn back to God through the messiah when Christ comes back. They will realize how they denied the messiah and will weep for days with how wrong they have been. Those Jews will be saved, those specific ones that accept the Messiah, much like the Jews for Christ and messianic Jews of today.

I am not asking about the salvation of the Jewish people; I am asking if they worship the same God as Christians.

God bless

 

[ralphinal]

I am not asking about the salvation of the Jewish people; I am asking if they worship the same God as Christians.

God bless

I could give the Catholic answer…

The Church does not say that any other group is de facto saved. She does say that we on earth cannot dictate God’s mercy.

 

[Roman_Catholic_1]

I could give the Catholic answer…

The Church does not say that any other group is de facto saved. She does say that we on earth cannot dictate God’s mercy.

Thanks ralpinal but I am not asking about the salvation of any one group, but whether or not the Jewish people worship the same God as Christians.

It was said by another poster that Muslims “obviously” do not worship the same God as Christians because they deny Christ. I am just curious if these posters will hold the same standard against the Jewish people, as they “obviously” reject Christ as well.

God bless

 

[Badaliyyah]

Could you please show me where Thomas Aquinas said that Christians and Muslims worshipped the same God?

Maybe I am just confused because I always thought us christians worshipped Jesus. I have never seen a Muslim worshipping Jesus.

Jews don’t worship Jesus either, and they also worship the same God as Christians, btw.

But…as to Thomas: the most obvious place to look is the Summa Contra Gentiles. After making clear that he does not think Mohammed is a prophet in the opening, the first three books lay out a natural theology covering topics that Thomas believes Christians and Muslims – and of course Jews, but Muslims pose a special case since there is wide agreement but no shared-text on which further matters, proper to revealed knowledge can be worked out – can both affirm concerning God and creation. Ibn’Rushd, who Thomas calls, The Commentator because of his very insightful readings of Aristotle (The Philosopher), shows up frequently throughout, often side by side with an Aristotle or Augustine or John Damascene. The Jewish philosopher Maimonides, and Muslim philosophers like Ibn’Sina and esp. Ibn’Rushd show up quite prominently throughout Thomas’ work. In the end Christianity and Islam share agree on what Scholastics would call matters of “natural theology” (God, creation, etc.).

[Later in life Thomas writes a book in which he attempts to answer Muslim objections to Christianity. It is called De Rationibus.]

This idea that there is a shared foundation marred by a terrible disjunction between Christians and Muslims goes back at least to John of Damascus (who thought of Muslims as heretics).

salaam.

 

[Badaliyyah]

It seems there is a recurring error in this thread. People seem to think when you say that two different groups are worshiping the same God (e.g., Muslims and Christians) that this somehow means that both groups are equally valid or that both are therefore going to be “saved”. This is never the intent of Catholic documents (whether that be Nostra Aetate or the CCC), nor does Thomas, for example, think that just because Ibn’Rushd is right about the fundamental truths of God that he is therefore a member of the faithful. Worshiping the same God as Catholics and being “saved” are not the same thing.

salaam.

 

[Hypothesis]

I will say again that Christians worship God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit, one God in three persons. Unless Muslims and Jews worship this God, then it would logically follow that they do not worship the “same” God. They worship a false ideology but not God.

 

[Roman_Catholic_1]

I will say again that Christians worship God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit, one God in three persons. Unless Muslims and Jews worship this God, then it would logically follow that they do not worship the “same” God. They worship a false ideology but not God.

The Jews do not worship the same God as Christians? Seems strange considering my Bible is comprised, in part, with of these “Jewish Scriptures” which speak of this “false ideology”? What about yours?

God bless

 

[firstmode]

The Jews do not worship the same God as Christians? Seems strange considering my Bible is comprised, in part, with of these “Jewish Scriptures” which speak of this “false ideology”? What about yours?

God bless

Jews do not worship the same God because they deny the true nature of God, much like Jehovah’s witnesses and Muslims.

 

[Badaliyyah]

I will say again that Christians worship God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit, one God in three persons. Unless Muslims and Jews worship this God, then it would logically follow that they do not worship the “same” God. They worship a false ideology but not God.

Jews do not worship the same God because they deny the true nature of God, much like Jehovah’s witnesses and Muslims.

I think I am as be-stun-fuddled as Roman_Catholic is. I don’t even see how you can consistently be Christian and even hold such a position. I mean, talk about ironic. You just cut the foundations right out from under the entire Christian faith. We worship the God of Moses and the Prophets, of Philo of Alexandria and Maimonides. We are not the practitioners of some new religious cult that started after the death of Jesus (at least we don’t usually admit to it on public fora). If they were all wrong, then we are screwed.

salaam.

 

[Little_Dove]

First of all, please do not disparage Vatican II. It is an official, ecumenical council of the Catholic Church. I believe that it was Archbishop Sheen, or maybe Father Corapi who said, “Where there is a great influx of grace, there is also a great increase in demonic activity to confuse and to divide.” 'Cause that is what the diabolical always tries to do, distort and rend asunder. Vatican II provided and continues to provide great grace to the Church. Because there was and continues to be severe misinterpretations and misguided implementations of it, does not make the Council itself in error or invalid!

So in light of the CCC, I think the answer you seek to CCC 841 is found in CCC 844-848, particularly in paragraphs 846 and 847. “All salvation comes from Christ the Head through the Church which is His Body…They could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or to remain in it.”

The paragraphs 839-843 seems to me to be the Church’s way of explaining to us how God may save those who are not "Fully incorporated into the society of the Church…"CCC837.
Only God can judge the heart and soul. So only God can judge who sincerely “knew that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary” and rejected it.

Archbishop Sheen once said, "There are three surprises that await us in heaven. One, we will see a lot of people there whom we did not expect to see. Two, we will not see people there whom we expected to see, and three, the biggest surprise of all, we will be there! (He said it, not me!)

God Bless!

To Jesus, through Mary