Catechism of the Catholic Church Paragraph 841?!?

[w_stewart]

I will say again that Christians worship God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit, one God in three persons. Unless Muslims and Jews worship this God, then it would logically follow that they do not worship the “same” God. They worship a false ideology but not God.

Do you, as a non-Catholic, worship the same God we Catholics worship? The God who gave his only Son. The God who founded the Catholic Church. The God who promised that his Church will not be prevailed upon by the gates of Hell. The God who abides by His Church until the consummation of age. The God who is the Paraclete. The God who protects the Church from error.

If you don’t believe the same God, is it not that you are not worshipping the same God we Catholics worship?

 

[Hypothesis]

Do you, as a non-Catholic, worship the same God we Catholics worship? The God who gave his only Son. The God who founded the Catholic Church. The God who promised that his Church will not be prevailed upon by the gates of Hell. The God who abides by His Church until the consummation of age. The God who is the Paraclete. The God who protects the Church from error.

If you don’t believe the same God, is it not that you are not worshipping the same God we Catholics worship?

Why do you say I am a non-catholic?

 

[Roman_Catholic_1]

Why do you say I am a non-catholic?

Are you a Catholic?

I generally see the term Protestant as derogatory and will refer to someone as a “non-Catholic Christian” instead. Not all the time though. Protestant is a whole lot easier and faster to type. And I think NCC would just confuse people

This may be what w_stewart was doing.

God bless

 

[firstmode]

First of all, please do not disparage Vatican II. It is an official, ecumenical council of the Catholic Church. I believe that it was Archbishop Sheen, or maybe Father Corapi who said, “Where there is a great influx of grace, there is also a great increase in demonic activity to confuse and to divide.” 'Cause that is what the diabolical always tries to do, distort and rend asunder. Vatican II provided and continues to provide great grace to the Church. Because there was and continues to be severe misinterpretations and misguided implementations of it, does not make the Council itself in error or invalid!

So in light of the CCC, I think the answer you seek to CCC 841 is found in CCC 844-848, particularly in paragraphs 846 and 847. “All salvation comes from Christ the Head through the Church which is His Body…They could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or to remain in it.”

The paragraphs 839-843 seems to me to be the Church’s way of explaining to us how God may save those who are not "Fully incorporated into the society of the Church…"CCC837.
Only God can judge the heart and soul. So only God can judge who sincerely “knew that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary” and rejected it.

Archbishop Sheen once said, "There are three surprises that await us in heaven. One, we will see a lot of people there whom we did not expect to see. Two, we will not see people there whom we expected to see, and three, the biggest surprise of all, we will be there! (He said it, not me!)

God Bless!

To Jesus, through Mary

Thank you for your explanation, it helps.

 

[firstmode]

Are you a Catholic?

I generally see the term Protestant as derogatory…
God bless

That is sad, I will pray for you.

 

[w_stewart]

Why do you say I am a non-catholic?

That is my impression. Am I wrong?

 

[Hypothesis]

That is my impression. Am I wrong?

Yes. I am a Traditionalist Catholic.

 

[w_stewart]

Yes. I am a Traditionalist Catholic.

I apologize, from the bottom of my heart.

 

[Lisa44]

…
On a different note, the statements proclaiming that we worship the same God as Muslims, can basically be found in Thomas Aquinas (among others), and is a long held view among Christians. Nothing particularly innovative there and it is never meant in such a way as to suggest indifference between Catholicism and Islam.

salaam.

Would you provide a quote from Aquinas please? I have to see that for myself to believe it.

Thanks

 

[Roman_Catholic_1]

That is sad, I will pray for you.

I have no idea what you read into my comment but I see the term Protestant as being derogatory towards Protestants.

God bless

 

[Badaliyyah]

I will say again that Christians worship God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit, one God in three persons. Unless Muslims and Jews worship this God, then it would logically follow that they do not worship the “same” God. They worship a false ideology but not God.

So, St. Augustine and St. Gregory of Nyssa have substantially different descriptions of the Trinity which clearly do not agree with one another. Does Augustine not worship the same God as Nyssa?

Thomas Aquinas thinks everything human beings know has to be mediated through the material world. Anselm thinks that the knowledge of human beings starts in an immediate grasp of ideas, independent of and prior to our grasp of material reality. Is Thomas not talking about the same human beings as Anselm?

I am sitting with a friend and we are looking out the window at the neighbor’s front deck. We agree that there is chair on that deck. We agree that this chair is really there and not an illusion. We say it has four legs, two arms, a back and it is made of plastic. But my friend is blue/green colorblind and says the chair is blue. I say it is green. Is my friend not knowing the same chair?

My Muslim friend and I are talking and we agree that God is One; God is Being; God is Truth; God is Infinite; God is Creator; everything that is in any way limited, conditioned, subject to change or division is a creature. My friend says I am committing shirk, and that this makes God less than One; I have attached a human being to God, and obviously, human beings are creatures and finite things. Am I not talking about the same God as my friend?

salaam.

 

[ralphinal]

Thanks ralpinal but I am not asking about the salvation of any one group, but whether or not the Jewish people worship the same God as Christians.

It was said by another poster that Muslims “obviously” do not worship the same God as Christians because they deny Christ. I am just curious if these posters will hold the same standard against the Jewish people, as they “obviously” reject Christ as well.

God bless

Sorry, I wasn’t clear. I should I have said that I could give the Catholic Answer, but you already know it…

Yes, they worship the same God, just with a limited understanding. They stop at the Father and do not know the Son or Spirit.

 

[itsjustdave1988]

What is up with this??

It is long standing Catholic doctrine. That’s what’s up.

It comes from Lumen Gentium, no. 16, which in turn comes from the teaching of St. Thomas Aquinas.

Lumen Gentium, no. 16 teaches that non-Catholics are “related in various ways to the people of God.(18*)” (*Lumen Gentium, *16).

*Lumen Gentium *16, footnote 18, is “(18) Cfr. S. Thomas, Summa Theol. III, q. 8, a. 3, ad 1”, which states:

                                             “Those who are unbaptized, though not actually in the Church, are ***in the Church potentially***. And this potentiality is rooted in two things--first and principally, in ***the power of Christ***, which is ***sufficient for the salvation*** of the whole human race; secondly, in ***free-will.***” (Summa Theologica, III, 8, 3)

This is precisely the authentic teaching of Lumen Gentium 16, despite the common ignorance to the contrary. The Catechism agrees with St. Thomas Aquinas on this point, which is why the Church specifically cites St. Thomas Aquinas in Lumen Gentium.

To more fully understand what St. Thomas and the Catechism are teaching, you need to study further what St. Thomas teaches on this topic. For instance…

In the same article, St. Thomas describes some of these who are “in the Church potentially” as “those who are united to Him in potentiality, which will never be reduced to act; such are those men existing in the world, who are not predestined, who, however, on their departure from this world, wholly cease to be members of Christ, as being no longer in potentiality to be united to Christ.” (ibid.)

In other words, according to Church doctrine, those not predestined to eternal glory are also described as “related in various ways” to the Church, but these cease to be united to Christ “in potentiality” when their life on earth comes to an end.

Muslim are cited in Lumen Gentium as among many non-Catholics who are “related in various ways” to the Church in the manner described above. Some will freely will to convert to Christ and as such are “reduced to act” as St. Thomas explains, meaning they are united to Christ in “actuality” not merely “potentially.” Others may never be united to Christ in actuality.

Seems like nothing new or heretical to me, although I’ve heard many erroneous interpretations of this teaching.

 

[Lisa44]

…

My Muslim friend and I are talking and we agree that God is One; God is Being; God is Truth; God is Infinite; God is Creator; everything that is in any way limited, conditioned, subject to change or division is a creature. My friend says I am committing shirk, and that this makes God less than One; I have attached a human being to God, and obviously, human beings are creatures and finite things. Am I not talking about the same God as my friend?

salaam.

This is the problem with comparing monotheistic religions. It just misses the mark.
We only know God through his prophets. That is why it is critical to pick the right prophet. If you pick muhammad’s version of things, you will end up with a radically different god at the end of the day. If you believe Jesus was the Son of God you will have a totally different God than the muslim or mormon god (s).

No, you are not talking about the same God. That is the whole point. Muhammad taught the OPPOSITE of what Jesus taught. Does God say one thing and then contradict himself. Man shall have one wife, no, wait, Man shall have up to four wives, yes, thats it.

If you pick the wrong prophet, ie: a false prophet, you will end up in a false religion.

Jesus said BEWARE of false prophets. So then you have Muhammad, a false prophet, teaching the the opposite of what Jesus taught, and somehow that’s suposed to represent the same god?

C’mon people. Muslims might have a notion that there is a God, but they rejected him. In place of God they worship a demon. They were warned, they chose instead to follow a murderous pervert.

When the catechism tells me that “together with us they adore the one, merciful God” I tell you those are fighting words right there. Written either by someone woefully ignorant, or else skillfully evil.

 

[ralphinal]

This is the problem with comparing monotheistic religions. It just misses the mark.
We only know God through his prophets. That is why it is critical to pick the right prophet. If you pick muhammad’s version of things, you will end up with a radically different god at the end of the day. If you believe Jesus was the Son of God you will have a totally different God than the muslim or mormon god (s).

No, you are not talking about the same God. That is the whole point. Muhammad taught the OPPOSITE of what Jesus taught. Does God say one thing and then contradict himself. Man shall have one wife, no, wait, Man shall have up to four wives, yes, thats it.

If you pick the wrong prophet, ie: a false prophet, you will end up in a false religion.

Jesus said BEWARE of false prophets. So then you have Muhammad, a false prophet, teaching the the opposite of what Jesus taught, and somehow that’s suposed to represent the same god?

C’mon people. Muslims might have a notion that there is a God, but they rejected him. In place of God they worship a demon. They were warned, they chose instead to follow a murderous pervert.

When the catechism tells me that “together with us they adore the one, merciful God” I tell you those are fighting words right there. Written either by someone woefully ignorant, or else skillfully evil.

Third option: someone who sees that the Muslims CLAIM and INTEND to worship the same God but fall short in their understanding of that God…

 

[Lisa44]

Third option: someone who sees that the Muslims CLAIM and INTEND to worship the same God but fall short in their understanding of that God…

Ah, an Islam apologist.

“same God”

“same”

Same means equals, or qualifies as…

This is a false, and heretical understanding, that Allah = the trinity.

Allah, is not the “same” as the trinity. If Allah was the “same” as the trinity then there would be no wrong understanding. It needs correcting because it is wrong, and false, like Jesus warned us. Remember Jesus? The third part of the trinity…? Jesus = God

Therefore, those who reject Jesus, reject God.

I can make up a god right now, on the spot, and call myself a prophet of god! I’m a prophet of god. Yes, my god rides around under the ocean on a barge made of croutons! And when I die, I am going to eat peanut butter soup in a flying saucer and have 20 husbands that god will give me.
Oh yes, and did I tell you, “TOGETHER WITH (Catholics) we adore the one merciful God.”

 

[Badaliyyah]

We only know God through his prophets.

this proposition has been condemned several times over in Catholic teaching, especially at the end of the 19th c. The Syllabus of Errors and Vatican I spring promptly to mind.

But returning to Thomas for a moment. As I pointed out earlier, with regards to the Summa Contra Gentiles, Thomas sketches broad agreement between Catholics and Muslims (and righteous pagans, like Aristotle) on the doctrine of God and Creation (Muslims only). In fact there are all sorts of things for which one does not need revelation at all in order to know God. About 4/5 of the SCG, in fact, deals with precisely these topics. Only the final book deals with topics that Thomas thinks can be known by revelation alone (Trinity and Incarnation being primary among them). But Thomas has already laid out the whole doctrine of the divine Being by then: a treatment of God as One. Thomas thinks the philosophers knew these truths, esp. the doctrine of God (Aristotle gets quoted very liberally, and Ibn’Rushd shows up more than a few times). And for most people these are, Thomas notes, quite rightly articles of belief (most people do not have the time, inclination or need to make them matters of knowledge, though they can be).

They ARE all talking about the same God: Thomas, Aristotle, Ibn’Rushd. Christians happen to have a bit more information (information that is needful for salvation), but this information does not contradict or undermine anything that comes prior in the SCG. Instead, it fills out what is already knowable to anyone. Aristotle and Ibn’Rushd knew, and Muslims rightly believe in, God…however inadequately.

Allah, is not the “same” as the trinity. If Allah was the “same” as the trinity then there would be no wrong understanding. It needs correcting because it is wrong, and false, like Jesus warned us. Remember Jesus? The third part of the trinity…? Jesus = God

two points here:

1. I used the word “Allah” who knows how many times during liturgy this morning, quite often in explicitly Trinitarian contexts, including the Trisagion (which btw, is in my signature…so the word “Allah” is in my signature as well). Allah is of course God, and therefore talking about the Trinity is in no way inappropriate or contradictory. Whether Muslims recognize it or not, whether Muslims agree or not, Christians believe Allah is the same as the Trinitarian God.
2. Jesus is usually the Incarnation of the second person of the Trinity for Christians.

C’mon people. Muslims might have a notion that there is a God, but they rejected him. In place of God they worship a demon…When the catechism tells me that “together with us they adore the one, merciful God” I tell you those are fighting words right there. Written either by someone woefully ignorant, or else skillfully evil.

Since you ignored the rest of my examples, but concluded that my friend and I were not talking about the same God…I am left to assume that you think Augustine and Nyssa are talking about different gods. That Thomas and Anselm are speaking of two different humanities (whatever that might mean). That my friend and I are talking about two different deck chairs. If you don’t think that, I would love to know why and how it is that those examples are different from the last, concerning myself and my Muslim friend…because we tend to think we are talking about the same God, when we talk to one another (despite our disagreements).

salaam.

 

[Lisa44]

this proposition has been condemned several times over in Catholic teaching, especially at the end of the 19th c. The Syllabus of Errors and Vatican I spring promptly to mind.

But returning to Thomas for a moment. As I pointed out earlier, with regards to the Summa Contra Gentiles, Thomas sketches broad agreement between Catholics and Muslims (and righteous pagans, like Aristotle) on the doctrine of God and Creation (Muslims only). In fact there are all sorts of things for which one does not need revelation at all in order to know God. About 4/5 of the SCG, in fact, deals with precisely these topics. Only the final book deals with topics that Thomas thinks can be known by revelation alone (Trinity and Incarnation being primary among them). But Thomas has already laid out the whole doctrine of the divine Being by then: a treatment of God as One. Thomas thinks the philosophers knew these truths, esp. the doctrine of God (Aristotle gets quoted very liberally, and Ibn’Rushd shows up more than a few times). And for most people these are, Thomas notes, quite rightly articles of belief (most people do not have the time, inclination or need to make them matters of knowledge, though they can be).

They ARE all talking about the same God: Thomas, Aristotle, Ibn’Rushd. Christians happen to have a bit more information (information that is needful for salvation), but this information does not contradict or undermine anything that comes prior in the SCG. Instead, it fills out what is already knowable to anyone. Aristotle and Ibn’Rushd knew, and Muslims rightly believe in, God…however inadequately.

two points here:

1. I used the word “Allah” who knows how many times during liturgy this morning, quite often in explicitly Trinitarian contexts, including the Trisagion (which btw, is in my signature…so the word “Allah” is in my signature as well). Allah is of course God, and therefore talking about the Trinity is in no way inappropriate or contradictory. Whether Muslims recognize it or not, whether Muslims agree or not, Christians believe Allah is the same as the Trinitarian God.
2. Jesus is usually the Incarnation of the second person of the Trinity for Christians.

Since you ignored the rest of my examples, but concluded that my friend and I were not talking about the same God…I am left to assume that you think Augustine and Nyssa are talking about different gods. That Thomas and Anselm are speaking of two different humanities (whatever that might mean). That my friend and I are talking about two different deck chairs. If you don’t think that, I would love to know why and how it is that those examples are different from the last, concerning myself and my Muslim friend…because we tend to think we are talking about the same God, when we talk to one another (despite our disagreements).

salaam.

Hi,
you confuse me somewhat. I did ask you to site Aquinas but you didn’t. I do not understand your arguemnt and I couldn’t unless I had quotations from everyone sited and the proper context for the quotes.
I just responded on a personal level to the claim that Allah and the trinity are somehow related.
Could you also quote from Vatican I I am interested to know more of what you speak about. I just haven’t read all your sources so I can’t really respond.

Question: you said you used the word Allah in the liturgy???
What on earth are you talking about?
Are you Catholic? Why would you use the word Allah?
Again, I am quite confused by you, perhaps if I knew your background it would explain your sympathies to Islam and why you claim that Muslims and Christians have the same god.

If you want me to respond to your other questions you will have to rewind and put in quotes from Augustine, Nyssa, Thomas, Anslem, the syllabus of errors, Vat I, Aristotle, Ibn Rush’d.

 

[Contarini]

Question: you said you used the word Allah in the liturgy???
What on earth are you talking about?
Are you Catholic? Why would you use the word Allah?

Because “Allah” is the normal Arabic word for God, normally used by Arabic-speaking Christians.

That you don’t know this shows how poorly you understand the entire issue on which you pontificate.

Edwin

 

[Lisa44]

Because “Allah” is the normal Arabic word for God, normally used by Arabic-speaking Christians.

That you don’t know this shows how poorly you understand the entire issue on which you pontificate.

Edwin

I am aware that Allah means god in arabic. Neverthless, the Muslim god is not the trinity. I think everyone knows this although they will dance around it and try to find some way to ignore that Jesus is God. The muslims believe Jesus was not God.

You have a good day