Catechism of the Catholic Church Paragraph 841?!?

[ralphinal]

Hi Ralphinal, thanks for your response,
I hear what you’re saying, and it makes sense, except it assumes that we all worship the same God and thats what I have a really hard time accepting. I can claim to worship the God of the Torah too, but do I? If I worshiped the God of the Torah it would be evidenced by the fact that I belonged to a Jewish sect, that I followed their rules and guidelines for behavior that was spelled out by God in his revelation in the Torah. (the “fruits” so to speak). If it walks and talks like a duck, it probably is a duck. Muslims, CLAIM to worship the God of Abraham but they say the Torah is full of lies. Well which is it? Am I a Catholic if I say the NT is full of lies?

If you are Christian, you do belong to what was once a sect of Judaism. We are no longer seen as such, but we were once.

Why do we accept their “membership” in the OT revelation if they rejected it in favor or a new revelation (the koran) that teaches contrary to the revelation of the OT? Example- the OT says to love the stranger. The Koran says if the “stranger” is a non-muslim to kill him. This is not the same teaching, therefore not from the same God. Unless God can’t make up his mind.

Now, I think that you are getting close to the Truth.

Hypothetically, let’s say that the Devil wanted to steal souls from God. He manifested himself as an Angel and told a man a new story. See, there is a God, and that God is all powerful and creator of all. He is also the judge but he is merciful. Now, that old devil has not lied yet, has he? Nope. THEN, he begins to slide lies in. One by one, the lies are tied to the TRUTH. In the end, you get a mish-mash of heresy, inconsistancy, and downright wrong ideas all tied to the starting Truth.

See, the Catholic Church does not say that Islam is a faith inspired by God. Not at all. They say that they intend to worship the same God and that they claim to worship the same God. That is true, because they do. However, their understanding is so flawed, possibly corrupted, that it is totally wrong.

 

[Gottle_of_Geer]

Jews don’t worship Jesus either, and they also worship the same God as Christians, btw.

But…as to Thomas: the most obvious place to look is the Summa Contra Gentiles. After making clear that he does not think Mohammed is a prophet in the opening, the first three books lay out a natural theology covering topics that Thomas believes Christians and Muslims – and of course Jews, but Muslims pose a special case since there is wide agreement but no shared-text on which further matters, proper to revealed knowledge can be worked out – can both affirm concerning God and creation. Ibn’Rushd, who Thomas calls, The Commentator because of his very insightful readings of Aristotle (The Philosopher), shows up frequently throughout, often side by side with an Aristotle or Augustine or John Damascene. The Jewish philosopher Maimonides, and Muslim philosophers like Ibn’Sina and esp. Ibn’Rushd show up quite prominently throughout Thomas’ work. In the end Christianity and Islam share agree on what Scholastics would call matters of “natural theology” (God, creation, etc.).

[Later in life Thomas writes a book in which he attempts to answer Muslim objections to Christianity. It is called De Rationibus.]

This idea that there is a shared foundation marred by a terrible disjunction between Christians and Muslims goes back at least to John of Damascus (who thought of Muslims as heretics).

salaam.

Let’s put it this way:​

• How many gods do Jews acknowledge ? One
• How many gods do Christians acknowledge ? One
• How many gods do Muslims acknowledge ? One

None of these religions knows of of any other god than the one it adores. If there is only one God - only one god is available to be worshipped. This is not theology, this is arithmetic.

Rather Obvious Point: Neither God nor anything else is multiplied by being described in more ways than one, whether these descriptions agree or not.

End of problem.

Conclusion: Paragraph 841 of the CCC, which is quoting the Decree Nostra Aetate of Vatican II, is saying nothing wrong.

 

[Badaliyyah]

I will say to your credit that your viewpoint, and that of the Church is very charitable. (Especially in light of all the Christians that were killed by the Islamic advance). I’m also wondering how much this willingness to make points of agreement with Islam stems from ecumenism?

The ability to note points of agree with Islam goes all the way back to the first encounters Christianity has with Islam. John of Damascus thought they were heretics. But that means he thought they shared a common revelation and were misusing it. Thomas thinks of them as monotheists with whom we agree on many things, but they deny the Trinity and Incarnation (because they are lacking revelation). Neither case has anything to do with the modern ecumenical movement.

Also, where does this idea come from that monotheists are better than pagans? The natural progression you spoke of from pagan to infidel to perfidel? How can anyone judge which is better, a compassionate buddhist or a jihading Muslim? If I had to wager I would go with the compassionate pagan.

Buddhism is well beyond anything I can talk about comfortably. I would recommend looking at DeLubac’s work on Buddhism or Thomas Merton’s encounter with Buddhism…in both case I think you will find very positive, but critical engagement (Doesn’t JP2 have a chapter on Buddhism in “Crossing the Threshold” maybe?).

Keeping it within the context of Islam, the call to monotheism and the worship of God initiated by Mohammad was, on Christian terms, a significant improvement over the polytheism found of the Arabian peninsula prior. But likewise, Judaism, with which Christianity shares a common revelation, is even closer to the truth than Islam with whom there is this vague shared history, but not a shared text. So each one represents a move closer to truth.

It was my understanding that all were equally false? Is this not true?

so the conclusion would be no, that is not true.

Also, you mentioned that revelation is not necessary to know about God. I would say this is true AFTER revelation. Before revelation this would have been doubtful. Noah was one in a million.

that is probably another thread for another time, but, briefly…just staying with Thomas for a moment. Thomas would agree that doing philosophy is MUCH easier after revelation. It actually makes us better philosophers he says.

BUT…he still thinks Aristotle, for example, accomplishes some pretty amazing things without any knowledge of the Bible some 400+ years before the birth of Christ. Aristotle has a lot to say about God that is very good, even if the doctrine of creation is absent from A. He also is very thoughtful and insightful about how the world works (physics and metaphysics). So you can, with an exceptional mind do exceptional things. And then other people read it, and so on…

salaam.

 

[StDativuspry4us]

Hi I live in Gibraltar southern most tip of Europe, a stone throw away across from Morocco just want to know one thing, why is it that we don’t read about ex-muslim Catholic converts and yet there are hundreds of ex-muslims who have embraced Christ in evangelical protestant traditions and have the courage to boldly giving testimony and openly proclaim Christ? by the way can someone tell me where can I get Catholic Catechisms or mini ones in Arabic!

Al Baraka:

confused:

 

[itsjustdave1988]

I thought the Catholic church taught that Jews and Muslims were infidels, or non-believers? If we believed in the same god, then they would be “believers” would they not?

I think they would be called “worshippers” of a God they do not rightly know.

For instance, St. Paul told the pagans of Athens: “What therefore you [pagans of Athens] worship as unknown, this I proclaim to you.” (St. Paul to the Pagans, *Book of Acts, *17:23). In other words, St. Paul proclaimed to them the truth about the one true God, equating him to the “Unknown god” which these pagans worshipped. He clearly saw them as worshipping wrongly, and so preached the true worship of the Blessed Trinity to them, as we should also preach to Muslims and to all mankind.

Nobody is disputing that the Muslims are objectively wrong in their understanding of the God of Abraham. The question is whether one is necessarily failing to adore the one true God simply because they err in their notions about God.

I agree with Pope St. Gregory VII (pope from 1073 to 1085) to Muslim King Anazir of Maurentania:“… we believe in and confess the same God, although by different modes (licet diverso modo), that we praise and venerate each day the Creator of the ages and master of this world” [St. Gregory VII, Letter III, 21 to Anazir (Al-Nasir), King of Mauretania PL, 148. 451A.] Do you also think Pope St. Gregory VII a heretic for holding such a view? Vatican II is saying nothing different than what was stated in the 11th century by Pope St. Gregory.

According to Vatican II’s Nostra Aetate: “The Church regards with esteem also the Moslems. They adore the one God, living and subsisting in Himself; merciful and all- powerful, the Creator of heaven and earth.” Yet, one CANNOT attain eternal salvation apart from at least an implicit desire of baptism, as well as the grace of supernatural faith and perfect charity. So, there is no such thing as “justification by a certain although errant conscience.”

Like the pagan centurian, Cornelius (cf. Act 10), one can pray to the one true God without rightly knowing Him. Religion is better than irreligion. Yet it is no less true that true religion is better than false religion.

Given the above, either you are incorrect in your thesis or Pope St. Gregory was a heretic. I’m convinced of the former, not the latter.

 

[Lisa44]

itsjustdave1988;5031038]I think they would be called “worshippers” of a God they do not rightly know.

For instance, St. Paul told the pagans of Athens: “What therefore you [pagans of Athens] worship as unknown, this I proclaim to you.” (St. Paul to the Pagans, *Book of Acts, *17:23). In other words, St. Paul proclaimed to them the truth about the one true God, equating him to the “Unknown god” which these pagans worshipped. He clearly saw them as worshipping wrongly, and so preached the true worship of the Blessed Trinity to them, as we should also preach to Muslims and to all mankind.

Nobody is disputing that the Muslims are objectively wrong in their understanding of the God of Abraham. The question is whether one is necessarily failing to adore the one true God simply because they err in their notions about God.

“Simply because they err”!
Why if that isn’t the most generous thing I’ve ever heard!
Dear Lord! What are you thinking?
Islam does not “simply err” it REJECTS Jesus!
Oh my Lord, talk about false charity.

I agree with Pope St. Gregory VII (pope from 1073 to 1085) to Muslim King Anazir of Maurentania:“… we believe in and confess the same God, although by different modes (licet diverso modo), that we praise and venerate each day the Creator of the ages and master of this world” [St. Gregory VII, Letter III, 21 to Anazir (Al-Nasir), King of Mauretania PL, 148. 451A.] Do you also think Pope St. Gregory VII a heretic for holding such a view? Vatican II is saying nothing different than what was stated in the 11th century by Pope St. Gregory.

I would have to disagree with this statement, that we believe in and confess the same god.

According to Vatican II’s Nostra Aetate: “The Church regards with esteem also the Moslems. They adore the one God, living and subsisting in Himself; merciful and all- powerful, the Creator of heaven and earth.” Yet, one CANNOT attain eternal salvation apart from at least an implicit desire of baptism, as well as the grace of supernatural faith and perfect charity. So, there is no such thing as “justification by a certain although errant conscience.”

Like the pagan centurian, Cornelius (cf. Act 10), one can pray to the one true God without rightly knowing Him. Religion is better than irreligion. Yet it is no less true that true religion is better than false religion.

Given the above, either you are incorrect in your thesis or Pope St. Gregory was a heretic. I’m convinced of the former, not the latter.

I would suggest another alternative, the Pope was not a heretic, even if he was misguided, and the above statement is incorrect as even Popes can make mistakes.

Regarding Acts 17, I’ve heard this argument made before but it doesn’t hold for me personally. If you read 17:30-34 you will read that God appointed **Jesus as the Judge **over all mankind, proof of which is his resurrection.

It is the worst form of denial of Jesus to claim that Muslims and Christians worship the same God. How can God be Jesus and not Jesus. The church has always taught that there is no salvation outside of her. Beyond that it is only through desiring to belong to the one True Church that a person is saved.

Muslims neither worship Jesus nor desire to be part of Jesus’s church. Hense, it is illogical to claim that we worship God with the Muslims. It is total and utter nonesense.

 

[itsjustdave1988]

…the Pope was not a heretic, even if he was misguided, and the above statement is incorrect as even Popes can make mistakes.

Yes, but I’m also sure that even “Lisas” make mistakes, and are even more likely to do so regarding Catholic doctrine than popes.

So when a “Lisa” or anybody else tells me that what the pope said many centuries ago, reaffirmed by an ecumencial council of the Catholic Church, and upheld by the last three popes is wrought with error, its hard for me to take them seriously. It seems anybody calling themselves Catholic now-a-days can claim for herself the authority to tell us what is authentically Catholic, and expect us to be convinced by it.

Instead, like St. Thomas Aquinas, I believe: “We must abide rather by the pope’s judgment than by the opinion of any of the theologians, however well versed he may be” (St. Thomas Aquinas, Questiones Quodlibetales, IX:8).

 

[Lisa44]

Yes, but I’m also sure that even “Lisas” make mistakes, and are even more likely to do so regarding Catholic doctrine than popes.

So when a “Lisa” or anybody else tells me that what the pope said many centuries ago, reaffirmed by an ecumencial council of the Catholic Church, and upheld by the last three popes is wrought with error, its hard for me to take them seriously. It seems anybody calling themselves Catholic now-a-days can claim for herself the authority to tell us what is authentically Catholic, and expect us to be convinced by it.

Instead, like St. Thomas Aquinas, I believe: “We must abide rather by the pope’s judgment than by the opinion of any of the theologians, however well versed he may be” (St. Thomas Aquinas, Questiones Quodlibetales, IX:8).

Hi Itsjustdave

You are an interesting fellow dear Dave. But just tell me one thing - who is your Lord?

Peace.

 

[Hypothesis]

2 Timothy 4:1 I charge thee, before God and Jesus Christ, who shall judge the living and the dead, by his coming and his kingdom:

841 The Church’s relationship with the Muslims. “The plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator, in the first place amongst whom are the Muslims; these profess to hold the faith of Abraham, and together with us they adore the one, merciful God, mankind’s judge on the last day.”

Since Christians and Muslims both adore the one, merciful God, mankind’s JUDGE on the last day…it’s nice to see that during Vatican II, the Islam religion began believing that Jesus Christ will be the one that will judge us! Right on!

 

[O.S.Luke]

I think our Americentrism is showing…

 

[Lisa44]

2 Timothy 4:1 I charge thee, before God and Jesus Christ, who shall judge the living and the dead, by his coming and his kingdom:

841 The Church’s relationship with the Muslims. “The plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator, in the first place amongst whom are the Muslims; these profess to hold the faith of Abraham, and together with us they adore the one, merciful God, mankind’s judge on the last day.”

Since Christians and Muslims both adore the one, merciful God, mankind’s JUDGE on the last day…it’s nice to see that during Vatican II, the Islam religion began believing that Jesus Christ will be the one that will judge us! Right on!

He will come again to judge the living and the dead.(Apostle’s Creed)

 

[matahari]

Going back in history to the first millenium the Church largely failed to send missionaries to Asia. So the Church must accept its own portion of blame that the people in a large portion of the world latched on to what belief they could which was mainly Islam. Someone said that heresies represent the Church’s unpaid debts. Saint Paul believed himself to be in debt to the unbelievers to preach the Gospel to them !

 

[ralphinal]

I think our Americentrism is showing…

Quick, cover it

Americentrism is not allowed in this new administration

 

[Hypothesis]

He will come again to judge the living and the dead.(Apostle’s Creed)

Who is HE? The Muslim God or the Christian God? Oh I forget, they both worship Jesus, mankinds judge on the last day. I suddenly remembered during mid-sentence.

 

[Earnest_Bunbury]

Going back in history to the first millenium the Church largely failed to send missionaries to Asia. So the Church must accept its own portion of blame that the people in a large portion of the world latched on to what belief they could which was mainly Islam. Someone said that heresies represent the Church’s unpaid debts. Saint Paul believed himself to be in debt to the unbelievers to preach the Gospel to them !

I see it as the Church being led by the Holy Spirit, even Jesus limited Himself to a portion of humanity… unless He should share in the blame? I don’t want to presume upon God’s plan, just do my humble best and blame myself when things could go better.

 

[Hypothesis]

This concept behind paragraph 841 was invented at Vatican II by Paul VI. I wish someone could show me where in church history it was ever taught that Muslims and Christians worshiped the same God.

All about this “feel good” religion. By no means should we say that Islam is a false religion and sends millions of people to hell to each year, we should include them with us and make them feel warm and fuzzy. We should even go and pray in their mosques with them.

The past Christian martyrs and popes are rolling in their graves about this modern heretical nonsense.

We do not worship the same God. <— Period

 

[O.S.Luke]

We do not worship the same God. <— Period

Prove it.

 

[Earnest_Bunbury]

This concept behind paragraph 841 was invented at Vatican II by Paul VI. I wish someone could show me where in church history it was ever taught that Muslims and Christians worshiped the same God.

All about this “feel good” religion. By no means should we say that Islam is a false religion and sends millions of people to hell to each year, we should include them with us and make them feel warm and fuzzy. We should even go and pray in their mosques with them.

The past Christian martyrs and popes are rolling in their graves about this modern heretical nonsense.

We do not worship the same God. <— Period

The thing we must remember is that Christianity is not merely a set of doctrines and dogmas that if adhered to get us into heaven as a key into a lock, an impersonal correctness, or an nonliving faith akin to concrete. It is a living relationship between God and his creatures. I don’t presume in arrogance to think that anyone goes to hell unless they want to.

The religious rulers of Jesus’ day adhered to doctrine but did not have the relationship to desire to do the “Will of the Father”. I certainly don’t say this to denigrate Catholic doctrine or to praise Islam but only to highlight Charity, the Holy Charity that prays for those who, because of culture or ignorance, adhere to a religion that is less that redemptive. If someone wants to love God, our sacrifices and sufferings with our prayers, united to the merits of Jesus’ passion, will give any heathen or pagan the Grace to accept the Second Person of the Trinity as the means of their salvation. Anything less is mere worship of doctrine in place of God. How do we even know our doctrine is true? Because of the relationship it produces with God! Otherwise it is just us wanting to be “right”, something even the devil believes he is. To call the Church heretical is sad and so far from the truth that it must be from the evil one himself.

God doesn’t change, but we do. The same Church that is given the power to forgive or not forgive sin can certainly adapt and change even if it looks like it is heretical. If someone thinks the Church is adopting heresy, then one must believe the statement in the Bible made by Jesus, “The gates of hell shall not prevail against it (our Church)” is wrong. The devil is at war against the Church in both liberal and conservative factions, and his ammo is arrogance.

 

[Hypothesis]

Prove it.

What would it take to prove to you that Christians and Muslims do not worship the same God?

Have you read the Bible in its entirety? Have you read the Koran in its entirety? Have you read the Church fathers? The ex cathedra statements of former popes/councils?

Would combining all this together, piece by piece, step by step show you that?

It’s simply modernism…trying to make everyone feel good. Jesus never tried to do this, he was pretty specific. Believe in me have life (Christianity), don’t believe in me have death (Islam)…Can anything be more clearer?

 

[famdigy]

Muslims clearly reject Jesus. Just that fresh air from Vatican II stinking yet again.

That is not true, we accept Jesus but not in the same way you do. Rejecting Jesus would mean rejecting the Quran. We accept him as a great Prophet and Messenger, we accept his miraculous birth, we accept his miracles but with a caveat, that Jesus performed those miracles with God’s permission. Actually Muslims are closer to accepting Jesus than the Jews are, yet the Jews are considered to be believers in the same God as Christians, and Muslims are not, I don’t get it.