Catechism of the Catholic Church Paragraph 841?!?

[Earnest_Bunbury]

Anywho… The OP must be taken in context with what proceeds it:

842The Church’s bond with non-Christian religions is in the first place the common origin and end of the human race:
All nations form but one community. This is so because all stem from the one stock which God created to people the entire earth, and also because all share a common destiny, namely God. His providence, evident goodness, and saving designs extend to all against the day when the elect are gathered together in the holy city. . .

843 The Catholic Church recognizes in other religions that search, among shadows and images, for the God who is unknown yet near since he gives life and breath and all things and wants all men to be saved. Thus, the Church considers all goodness and truth found in these religions as “a preparation for the Gospel and given by him who enlightens all men that they may at length have life.”

844 In their religious behavior, however, men also display the limits and errors that disfigure the image of God in them:

Very often, deceived by the Evil One, men have become vain in their reasonings, and have exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and served the creature rather than the Creator. Or else, living and dying in this world without God, they are exposed to ultimate despair.

845 To reunite all his children, scattered and led astray by sin, the Father willed to call the whole of humanity together into his Son’s Church. The Church is the place where humanity must rediscover its unity and salvation. The Church is “the world reconciled.” She is that bark which “in the full sail of the Lord’s cross, by the breath of the Holy Spirit, navigates safely in this world.” According to another image dear to the Church Fathers, she is prefigured by Noah’s ark, which alone saves from the flood.

Doesn’t the Church say there are extenuating circumstances that reduce moral culpability?

The problem isn’t in saying Muslims worship the same God, but to include Muslim practices into Catholicism as something legitimate in place of that which was handed down or is taught by the Church, in opposition to humble docility or obedience. Vat II states that we don’t deny what is true in other religions as a means of evangelizing, not of being evangelized. This is the problem with those who have dubious faith being led into temptation in opposition to the one, true Faith by way of enneagram, Jungian psychology, spiritual writers who dissent, Mass as a meal and not a sacrifice, denying the reality of hell and thus do nothing to avoid it, etc. This seems to be more of a problem than a teaching not condemning Muslims strongly enough. How do we know they will be condemned more for not knowing then we will for knowing and not doing?

 

[sprocket1984]

I think what is important here is getting back to the OT and what the covenants God made with different people. God made a promise to Abraham and also to Hagar and her son. He promised both of these parties.

The Abrahamic Covenants

1. The promised land Genesis 12:1;
2. The promise of Abraham’s descendants 12:2;
3. The promise of blessing and redemption 12:3;

God also promised Hagar and her son that he would make a them a great nation.

Same God but different agreements/promises. These agreements were not spiritual or heavenly meaning they were physical only.

Let’s talk about the promise that God made to his people if they believed in Jesus the Christ as their saviour. This covenant was more than physical. This covenant was spiritual. Whoever believes that Jesus is their saviour will have eternal life. That is the promise that separates Christians, Jews, and Muslims.

Same God but different promises. All (Christians, Jews, Muslims) can have etermal life but they must believe in one thing…That Jesus is the saviour.

I don’t want to get into works because that is why I am studying Catholicism. I also believe in the Eucharist as being the blood, body, soul, and divinity. I believe, after searching and studying, in many things that the Catholics believe which is almost behing Catholic. I do not believe in the Catholics’ stance on 841 of the CCC.

Brian

 

[matahari]

The Catechism is Scripturally based. So much for some other christians who claim that catholics are not encouraged by the hierarchy to be Bible literate. Romans 2:13-16 states " For it is not they who hear the Law that are just in the sight of God; but it is they who follow the Law that will be justified.When the Gentiles who have no law do by nature what the Law prescribes, these having no law are a law unto themselves.They show the work of the Law written in their hearts.Their conscience bears witness to them, even when conflicting thoughts accuse or defend them. This will take place on the day when, according to my gospel, God will judge the hidden secrets of men through Jesus Christ."

 

[Earnest_Bunbury]

I don’t want to get into works because that is why I am studying Catholicism. I also believe in the Eucharist as being the blood, body, soul, and divinity. I believe, after searching and studying, in many things that the Catholics believe which is almost being Catholic. I do not believe in the Catholics’ stance on 841 of the CCC.

Paragraph 841 is what Catholics believe as it is a revealed truth. The one God is the God who created the world and in Him we have our existence, this is the God we all worship. It is how that worship takes its form is the problem. Catholics and Protestants both worship the same God, the Muslims and Jews do to. How they do it is the difference between them. How God wants to be worshiped, as revealed by Jesus to the Apostles, is what the Catholic Church is charged with and can be seen in the Bible:

**Gospel of John 20:21: Jesus therefore said to them again, Peace be unto you: as the Father hath sent me, even so send I you.
22 And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and saith unto them, Receive ye the Holy Spirit:

Gospel of Matthew 16:19: I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven; whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven."**

As the Holy Father Benedict XVI said as Cardinal Ratzinger at the closing of the Eucharistic Congress June 2002

…“For the early Christians, there was no difference between what today is often distinguished as orthodoxy and orthopraxis, as right doctrine and right action…the ancient Church… understood the word “orthodoxy” not to mean “right doctrine” but to mean the authentic adoration and glorification of God.”

Knowing God’s revealed truth is to worship God the way He wants to be worshiped. Not knowing this leads to doing this one’s own way, leading away from the Grace God gives you and possibly leading to hating and killing when the teachings are not followed. This hating and killing can be seen in Muslims as well as Christians, as in Northern Ireland as well as many, many other places.

 

[seraphime2008]

I am so happy to acknowledge this, because I think this is one that makesThe Catholic Church is the right religion, because She doesn’t exclude other people who strive to do good regardless of their religion. Yes, I believe that salvation are from Jesus, but for those who doesn’t have the opportunity to know Him personally, or too afraid to get to know Him, they will be judged by their deed according to their conscience.

If we exclude the Non Catholic or the non Christian, what’s the difference between us and the Muslim that exclude Mother Teresa no matter how good she is, for the gate of heaven since they think she is one of the idolaters?

Do we fall into those kind of trap?

We will not limit Jesus only for Christian. His love of human being will encompass the many boxes that man usually incline to make regarding their unknown territory for other human being.

:clapping:

 

[Deconi]

He made the Muslim, just as surely as He made the Buddhist.

He made the Hinduist, as surely as He made the Moonist

He made the believer, as surely as He made the non-believer

He made the Jew and the Palestinean

ALL ARE HIS CHILDREN

Christ unites them all and REITERATES this truth by revealing The Maker, through Himself.

Unfortunately, some who follow him, Christians, chose to differentiate as vehemently as their brethren listed above!

“Catholic.” - Universal Church (Inclusive of everything in creation)

Paragraph 841 of the Catechism is quite accurate and complete.

 

[sprocket1984]

Paragraph 841 is what Catholics believe as it is a revealed truth. The one God is the God who created the world and in Him we have our existence, this is the God we all worship. It is how that worship takes its form is the problem. Catholics and Protestants both worship the same God, the Muslims and Jews do to. How they do it is the difference between them. How God wants to be worshiped, as revealed by Jesus to the Apostles, is what the Catholic Church is charged with and can be seen in the Bible:

As the Holy Father Benedict XVI said as Cardinal Ratzinger at the closing of the Eucharistic Congress June 2002

Knowing God’s revealed truth is to worship God the way He wants to be worshiped. Not knowing this leads to doing this one’s own way, leading away from the Grace God gives you and possibly leading to hating and killing when the teachings are not followed. This hating and killing can be seen in Muslims as well as Christians, as in Northern Ireland as well as many, many other places.

I’m not sure what the truth is and who it is revealed to. Truth is pretty simple to understand in the bible. The bibles is the most authentic and most reliable method of seeing God’s word and it can be revealed to anyone who reads it.

It is real easy to see God holding up his part of the promise to the Jews and Muslims. The thing about God is he holds his part of the bargin regardless of how the other end holds up. That is why today we still see Israel being supported as a nation and palistinians still being supported.

Thats why God has continued to make muslims a great nation regardless of what they do (calling the kuran God’s word and other lies for instance). The bible of the muslims is not the word of God. God does not contradict. If the muslims want to have a different idea about what God is God will still bless them as a nation. Lets not confuse God’s promise keeping with how well the people hold up their part of the agreement.

You people are getting things mixed up. Same God but different covenants. The covenants that God made with anyone else is nothing more that a physical covenant. What God states in the bible is that we ALL have to come through Jesus Christ to enter God’s Kingdom.

It doesn’t matter what physically binding agreement God made with anyone, an agreement of such is nothing more than that, physical. The spiritual covenant, the promise that God made to those that believe in his son, will mean eternal life in heaven.

Now if we can agree on that I would be in a better postion of converting. I don’t think that I can believe in ccc 841 which is where my journey into the Catholic Church came to an abrupt end. The night before I met with a friend of mine and a deacon in the Cathlic Church I read that in the ccc and my heart sank. It seemed to me as I read it that it was nothing more than politics getting in the way of God’s word, which seemed evil to me. IT seemed like Pope Paul John the 2nd and Cardinal Ratzinger were makings some wild stretches for political and worldly gain. It seemed like they were telling the reader that they knew better about God’s plan than God did.

If the ccc is bible based, then what percentage of it is? If a bible is 1000 pages long for example and someone tells me that it is 99% accurate, it sounds like a good deal until I realize that 1% of that same bible then is inaccurate. How many pages of inaccuracies would that be? 10!! Wow, that would mean that 10 pages of falses would be in that 1000 page bible. So you see the ccc that the Holy See agreed upon may not be as accurate as how it seems. Kind of a tongue twister:thumbsup:

I guess to boil it down I have to say that my stumbling block with the Catholic Church and my conversion into it is the Magisterium. It seems as though new things are revealed to the Catholic Church through the Magisterium that contradicts the bible.

Sorry for the long winded post. I guess I will be a contributing fan to Relevant Radio but will not be any more of a member of the Catholic Church than that.

My Blessings,
Brian

 

[Earnest_Bunbury]

I’m not sure what the truth is and who it is revealed to. Truth is pretty simple to understand in the bible. The bibles is the most authentic and most reliable method of seeing God’s word and it can be revealed to anyone who reads it.

If it is easy, why are there so many people who disagree about what it says? You are looking at the Bible through your own template, an understanding of the Bible that fits your own preconceived notions, I think. The Bible wasn’t canonized until 400’s and there were a lot of other books (letters) being shared among the churches. The Church is the pillar and bulwark of the Truth, and Jesus is that Truth. The authority was given to Peter and the rest of the Apostles who followed the commandment of Jesus to teach the faith. That teaching is what the Bible points to, “Hold fast to what was given to you, by word of mouth or letter”, as the letter indicates what the Apostles gave them. The rule of faith is the Church, the pillar and bulwark, and the Bible is written so that “you may come to believe”.
The reformers in separating themselves from the rule of faith that is the Church, anchored it in the Bible separate from Sacred Tradition and thus left it to the people to interpret it on their own. This is wrong as the multitude of denominations who say that they are the ones that are correct are growing daily and all take the Bible as the sole rule for their faith. The Catholic Church is the pillar that inerrantly interprets the Bible correctly in light of Sacred Tradition handed down by the Apostles.

Thats why God has continued to make muslims a great nation regardless of what they do (calling the kuran God’s word and other lies for instance). The bible of the muslims is not the word of God. God does not contradict. If the muslims want to have a different idea about what God is God will still bless them as a nation. Lets not confuse God’s promise keeping with how well the people hold up their part of the agreement.

God’s promise to Hagar wasn’t a covenant as no reciprocal exchange was made. God just said Ishmael would be a mighty nation, a covenant was made with Abraham with circumcision.

What God states in the bible is that we ALL have to come through Jesus Christ to enter God’s Kingdom.

So true, the catechism doesn’t state differently, only that the one God who spoke to Hagar is the same one that made the covenant with Abraham. The fact that Muhammad wrote a Koran doesn’t make Catholicism wrong.

It doesn’t matter what physically binding agreement God made with anyone, an agreement of such is nothing more than that, physical. The spiritual covenant, the promise that God made to those that believe in his son, will mean eternal life in heaven.

The Old Testament is perfected in the New Testament and the New is prefigured in the Old. Jesus is the Object toward which the Old Testament leads. Physical, spiritual is the lens which you interpret what you read. Read it again in light of Jesus.

IT seemed like Pope Paul John the 2nd and Cardinal Ratzinger were makings some wild stretches for political and worldly gain. It seemed like they were telling the reader that they knew better about God’s plan than God did.

It seems you make the same mistake, that you know more of what God’s plan is than 2000 years of Christianity. It is the same as the saying, If Luther was right, then 1500 years of Christianity was wrong! There were problems in the Church but that doesn’t make the teachings wrong. Gandhi related the sin of people with Christianity being wrong, don’t do the same thing with Catholicism.

If the ccc is bible based, then what percentage of it is? If a bible is 1000 pages long for example and someone tells me that it is 99% accurate, it sounds like a good deal until I realize that 1% of that same bible then is inaccurate. How many pages of inaccuracies would that be? 10!! Wow, that would mean that 10 pages of falses would be in that 1000 page bible. So you see the ccc that the Holy See agreed upon may not be as accurate as how it seems. Kind of a tongue twister.

The New Testament is Sacred Tradition based, on the teaching handed down from the Apostles. That is the template that makes the Bible come alive and the lack of which makes for a myriad of competing denominations all calling each other wrong.

I guess to boil it down I have to say that my stumbling block with the Catholic Church and my conversion into it is the Magisterium. It seems as though new things are revealed to the Catholic Church through the Magisterium that contradicts the bible.

Just your own mistaken view, your own “tradition” of seeing the Bible

Sorry for the long winded post. I guess I will be a contributing fan to Relevant Radio but will not be any more of a member of the Catholic Church than that.

Look closer at the history of the Church, as Cardinal Newman wrote “to be deep into history is to cease to be Protestant”. Use what is good and true in the catechism to lead you to the Truth of Jesus as given by the Apostles to the churches, as they were all one and those that tried to lead them astray were the subject of the letters of St. Paul, St. John, St. James etc. The rule of faith is the Church as evidenced by it being one in union with the Bishop of Rome, the successor of Peter, the Rock. Please don’t give up.

 

[sprocket1984]

Oscar,

Thank you for the response. Are you sure that Catholic’s are not mistaking tradition with invention? I agree with you when you said that something like “why are there so many people with so many different beliefs about the bible if its so easy to understand”

I agree, which is what prompted my search. The part of the bible that I was refering to is specifically the the verse or verses where Jesus stated that no one can come to the father except through Him. It just seems that the ccc where it states the position in 841, well, It seems to contradict the bible.

I also have other concerns but are not related to this forum topic. some other topics are concecrating people and nations unto Mother Mary, Articles that I’ve read that specifically read “How to Worhip Mary”

I’m still open to listen and still searching but I have to tell you, There is a lot to take in that is hard to take in.

After all it is my soul that I’m concerned with as selfish as it may sound.
Brian

 

[Earnest_Bunbury]

No Catholic who knows anything about the faith would say they “worship” the Blessed Virgin Mary. I have found that some people relate asking for things of God as worship, so, praying to Mary is “worship”. This is wrong in that worship is much more than asking, it is thanking and in most cases just talking to God, or Mary, or the saints. The bottom line is that Mary spent 30 years with Jesus at His feet learning and cooperating with Him in our redemption, the Apostles also had recourse to Her as well after His ascension, part of the Sacred Tradition Luther separated himself from because he didn’t like the people in the Church. The spiritual and the physical you related to in the previous posts are just what you seem to forget in other aspects of religion. the spiritual is made visible through the material world we live in, something you don’t deny I bet, but the spiritual aspects of the Catholic Church is bad if you can’t see it in the Bible. This seeing is what pagans today use against our faith in God. They can’t see it so they deny it. Faith as you would agree is seeing with “eyes” that are spiritual; it is there, real, tangible, and certain through faith. This is what I am asking of you, see the Bible through the one true faith that was handed down, the spiritual aspects of the Authority of the Church.

 

[matahari]

After all it is my soul that I’m concerned with as selfish as it may sound.
Brian

---

Good on you ! Our first responsibility is our own personal salvation.
About Mary…I’ve been around for awhile but I’ve never met a Catholic who thinks we should worship Mary. - We honour her as the Mother of the Lord.

Jesus has always identified Himself with the CC the ONLY Church which He founded.When Saul was persecuting the church Jesus appeared to him as a great Light and said “Saul, Saul why are you persecuting Me ?”

The New Testament Church is the Catholic Church.

And you are right. Jesus is the ONLY way to the Father. Why not visit Him in the Tabernacle of your local Catholic church ?

We Catholics take great comfort and have confidence in the promise He made 2000 years ago " I AM with you all days until the end of the world" [last verse Gospel of Matthew]

 

[sprocket1984]

The spiritual and the physical you related to in the previous posts are just what you seem to forget in other aspects of religion. the spiritual is made visible through the material world we live in, something you don’t deny I bet, but the spiritual aspects of the Catholic Church is bad if you can’t see it in the Bible.

Actually I meant spiritual meaning heavenly. Those who believe in Jesus will be saved. Anyways, in regards to the Blessed Virgin, one day while listening to Relevant Radio they were talking about consecrating oneself to Mary. So naturally I looked on line to read up on what this meant. On this page (I tried looking up the site again but do not know what site it was) it defined How to Worhip Mary. It had a whole paragraph on instructions on how to worship Mary. The site was one that first started off by explaining the consecration then as I scrolled down it gave instructions on how to worship Mary and how this one saint described it.

Let me ask you a few more questions Oscar Why does the world need Jesus as the sacrificing lamb if others, to include athiests, Hindus, Buddists, mushroom worshippers :thumbsup:don’t have to come to Jesus to be saved? I’m being serious, just think of what the Catholic Church is saying for a minutes. If one can obtain salvation through their own way of being led to God then why did Jesus have to die for us. Why would anyone have to find Jesus if all of those people are being saved because they are in their own heart searching for God? Why did God in man form come down to have to die for us?

Last question and thanks for answering, Didn’t the Catholic Church kill numberous people because they would not join the church or fell away from the church? Am I wrong or wasn’t that what the crusades were all about? (two questions but one was a sub question)
Thank you,
Brian

 

[sprocket1984]

---

Good on you ! Our first responsibility is our own personal salvation.

I hope that I didn’t offend you, I can’t stand skolding hot bathwater and I can’t stand being burned with lashing teeth. It is only when I find the true answers to my questions on salvation can I then truly lead others. I must have confidence first in my answers to my questions which is prompted by my own salvation. It isn’t until I have the answers that I can confidently lead others.
Brian

 

[Godfollower]

It seems to me that at least some of the people objecting to Paragraph 841 are making an unconscious assumption: that there are many gods, and the one the Muslims worship is not the same as the one that Christians worship. Paragraph 841 should actually be seen the other way around:

There is only one God. There is a lot we know about Him, and there is a lot we don’t know about Him. But there is only one of Him (although He has three Persons in one). He created all that exists. He sent His only begotten Son to save us, and He sent His Spirit to guide us. But Father, Son, and Spirit, in some way we do not yet comprehend, are all three Persons in one God.

We Christians worship Him. We accept His Scriptures. We try to follow His commands, with varying degrees of success. But we fall short.

The Jewish people worship Him as well. They don’t believe that He is three Persons, and they don’t believe that the Messiah has come yet. They are mistaken, but they aren’t worshiping some false idol; they are worshiping the one true God, albeit without the fullness of truth.

The Muslims worship Him, too. They don’t believe that He is three Persons, and they don’t believe in a Messiah. They believe He sent a prophet to His people by the name of Muhammad and that Muhammad wrote down additional scriptures; they also believe that the true Scriptures have been corrupted. They are mistaken, but they aren’t worshiping some false idol; they are worshiping the one true God, albeit without the fullness of truth.

In short, Jews, Christians, and Muslims all worship the same, one God, just with varying understandings. There is only one Truth, and we all understand it in different ways, but we are all worshiping the same God. We acknowledge that there is some truth in the teachings of Judaism and Islam – just off the cuff, the fact that there’s only one God, that we have a duty to worship Him, that we should place Him first in our lives, etc. There’s nothing wrong with admitting that “There is only one true God” is an accurate statement. The same goes for any other truths in their teachings.

 

[Badaliyyah]

Let me ask you a few more questions Oscar Why does the world need Jesus as the sacrificing lamb if others, to include athiests, Hindus, Buddists, mushroom worshippers :thumbsup:don’t have to come to Jesus to be saved? I’m being serious, just think of what the Catholic Church is saying for a minutes. If one can obtain salvation through their own way of being led to God then why did Jesus have to die for us. Why would anyone have to find Jesus if all of those people are being saved because they are in their own heart searching for God? Why did God in man form come down to have to die for us?

You apparently need to read some of the paragraphs around #841, as well as the documents from Vatican II which the CCC is quoting (Nostra Aetate and Lumen Gentium in particular).

As has been pointed out several times in this thread, nothing in #841 says that there is any salvation to be had apart from Christ. In fact, both the CCC as well as Vatican II (in Nostra Aetate and Lumen Gentium, which are the documents from the Council that the CCC is quoting) very explicitly claim the contrary (see LG14 for instance). All salvation is through Christ.

The position concerning Islam that is outlined in #841 is not new, and as I have also pointed out repeatedly in this thread, is very much in keeping with the position of such foundational Christian thinkers as Thomas Aquinas.

salaam.

 

[seraphime2008]

Let me ask you a few more questions Oscar Why does the world need Jesus as the sacrificing lamb if others, to include athiests, Hindus, Buddists, mushroom worshippers don’t have to come to Jesus to be saved? I’m being serious, just think of what the Catholic Church is saying for a minutes. If one can obtain salvation through their own way of being led to God then why did Jesus have to die for us. Why would anyone have to find Jesus if all of those people are being saved because they are in their own heart searching for God? Why did God in man form come down to have to die for us?

Dear Sprocket,
I first have to admit that I am not the legitimate person to answer this, my understanding of Catholic teaching is based solely on the trust to the CC that has universal intention to reach out to any people regardless their differences.

I think when Jesus said that there’s only one way to get to Father, that is through Him that means that there are two parties that engage there, we as the creation should actively work out our own salvation in which for the Christian we had been given the redeemer in Christ. But don’t forget that the other party is Christ himself. So when He said salvation is trough Him, don’t you think He has the intention to save all human kind? Now for the Christian as we have been redeemed, we are not under any punishment anymore in this world as we are given the Holy spirit, and we entrusted our self to Him too to save us after this life. But for the rest of human being, God as in Trinity is still actively working for them to be saved too, that’s why they also have their own moral compass. Don’t you think that He has the right to save them?

Paul also teach that in the bible.
Who said that we’re not following the Bible? Isn’t the essence of the Bible is to spread “Good News”, didn’t Christ have said that we have to learn from Father who pours rain and let the sun shine to either the bad man and the good man so we are different from the pagan? If Christ himself teach us not to judge people by our own limited understanding, don’t u think that He who is the one that can see what’s inside each of our heart know better how to judge?

 

[firstmode]

It seems to me that at least some of the people objecting to Paragraph 841 are making an unconscious assumption: that there are many gods, and the one the Muslims worship is not the same as the one that Christians worship. Paragraph 841 should actually be seen the other way around:

There is only one God. There is a lot we know about Him, and there is a lot we don’t know about Him. But there is only one of Him (although He has three Persons in one). He created all that exists. He sent His only begotten Son to save us, and He sent His Spirit to guide us. But Father, Son, and Spirit, in some way we do not yet comprehend, are all three Persons in one God.

We Christians worship Him. We accept His Scriptures. We try to follow His commands, with varying degrees of success. But we fall short.

The Jewish people worship Him as well. They don’t believe that He is three Persons, and they don’t believe that the Messiah has come yet. They are mistaken, but they aren’t worshiping some false idol; they are worshiping the one true God, albeit without the fullness of truth.

The Muslims worship Him, too. They don’t believe that He is three Persons, and they don’t believe in a Messiah. They believe He sent a prophet to His people by the name of Muhammad and that Muhammad wrote down additional scriptures; they also believe that the true Scriptures have been corrupted. They are mistaken, but they aren’t worshiping some false idol; they are worshiping the one true God, albeit without the fullness of truth.

In short, Jews, Christians, and Muslims all worship the same, one God, just with varying understandings. There is only one Truth, and we all understand it in different ways, but we are all worshiping the same God. We acknowledge that there is some truth in the teachings of Judaism and Islam – just off the cuff, the fact that there’s only one God, that we have a duty to worship Him, that we should place Him first in our lives, etc. There’s nothing wrong with admitting that “There is only one true God” is an accurate statement. The same goes for any other truths in their teachings.

1 John:

22Who is the liar? It is the man who denies that Jesus is the Christ. Such a man is the antichrist—he denies the Father and the Son. 23**No one who denies the Son has the Father; whoever acknowledges the Son has the Father also. **

 

[firstmode]

Dear Sprocket,
I first have to admit that I am not the legitimate person to answer this, my understanding of Catholic teaching is based solely on the trust to the CC that has universal intention to reach out to any people regardless their differences.

I think when Jesus said that there’s only one way to get to Father, that is through Him that means that there are two parties that engage there, we as the creation should actively work out our own salvation in which for the Christian we had been given the redeemer in Christ. But don’t forget that the other party is Christ himself. So when He said salvation is trough Him, don’t you think He has the intention to save all human kind? Now for the Christian as we have been redeemed, we are not under any punishment anymore in this world as we are given the Holy spirit, and we entrusted our self to Him too to save us after this life. But for the rest of human being, God as in Trinity is still actively working for them to be saved too, that’s why they also have their own moral compass. Don’t you think that He has the right to save them?

Paul also teach that in the bible.
Who said that we’re not following the Bible? Isn’t the essence of the Bible is to spread “Good News”, didn’t Christ have said that we have to learn from Father who pours rain and let the sun shine to either the bad man and the good man so we are different from the pagan? If Christ himself teach us not to judge people by our own limited understanding, don’t u think that He who is the one that can see what’s inside each of our heart know better how to judge?

Do you think people should be converted from Islam to Christianity? Do you think that would be better for them?

Do you think a practitioner of Animism should be converted to Christianity?

If all of these people are saved through their revelations of God that were introduced through their local customs and religions, do you think it is wrong of us to try and convert them to Christianity?

What does the great commission mean to you? What do you think Christ meant when he said to spread the gospel to the 4 Corners of the world (spread the teachings of Christ to the entire Planet)? What do you think Christ meant when he said that?

 

[firstmode]

The spiritual and the physical you related to in the previous posts are just what you seem to forget in other aspects of religion. the spiritual is made visible through the material world we live in, something you don’t deny I bet, but the spiritual aspects of the Catholic Church is bad if you can’t see it in the Bible.

Actually I meant spiritual meaning heavenly. Those who believe in Jesus will be saved. Anyways, in regards to the Blessed Virgin, one day while listening to Relevant Radio they were talking about consecrating oneself to Mary. So naturally I looked on line to read up on what this meant. On this page (I tried looking up the site again but do not know what site it was) it defined How to Worhip Mary. It had a whole paragraph on instructions on how to worship Mary. The site was one that first started off by explaining the consecration then as I scrolled down it gave instructions on how to worship Mary and how this one saint described it.

Let me ask you a few more questions Oscar Why does the world need Jesus as the sacrificing lamb if others, to include athiests, Hindus, Buddists, mushroom worshippers :thumbsup:don’t have to come to Jesus to be saved? I’m being serious, just think of what the Catholic Church is saying for a minutes. If one can obtain salvation through their own way of being led to God then why did Jesus have to die for us. Why would anyone have to find Jesus if all of those people are being saved because they are in their own heart searching for God? Why did God in man form come down to have to die for us?

Last question and thanks for answering, Didn’t the Catholic Church kill numberous people because they would not join the church or fell away from the church? Am I wrong or wasn’t that what the crusades were all about? (two questions but one was a sub question)
Thank you,
Brian

I agree sprocket, this stuff about consecration to Mary is kinda creepy…

Consecrating Oneself to Our Blessed Mother

Words of Our Lady: “I come to offer you my greatest gift, My LOVE in a most special exchange – my heart for yours.” In this exchange we will partake in Our Lady’s Triumph, and be carried in her maternal arms to God Father in Heaven. The Holy Spirit clings to our hearts in the moment of our heart’s consecration.

To the souls who are consecrated to the Immaculate Heart of Mary, Our Lady promises peace within our hearts, peace in our families, peace in our homelands, and the victory of peace on earth. Words of our Lady: “Jesus shall claim the Reign of His Sacred Heart, and restore His kingdom.” She promises reconciliation, union and peace, “this is what you shall find in my heart waiting for you”. She will bring all hearts into union and lead them into the embrace of Jesus. Each one of us will become the sign of unity to all the world.

She promises an open heart to receive and reflect the glory of God, and the sanctification of our souls through the practice of virtue. “To reflect my heart is to become filled in grace, to practice virtue, and remain in the state of purity.” She becomes our portal to the Sacred Heart of Jesus as we achieve this interior transformation. “To imitate my Immaculate Heart is to follow His holy will and to fulfill every wish of His Sacred Heart.” We will receive the halo of purity adorned with virtue.

“I shall plant within you the seed of holiness from which shall grow grace and virtue.” You will experience a new power in prayer that is beyond recognition, and an increased relationship through this prayer with Jesus. All the mysteries of Heaven will be taught to your soul, and you will be led to the fullness of the Gospel message and gain the crown of Heaven. God will reward love and mercy with His own. “Love is God Father’s only gift; from love comes everything else.”

“You shall spread the light of Divine Splendor”, as the Holy Sprit will be allowed to move within you and through you. She promises to lead to the glorification of the Most Holy Trinity, then placed in His service in a special way. “I come to help you to transform your heart and soul into the true meaning of conversion.”

As our Advocate, she gives us her grace of petition and intercession. “I shall give all to you, this is my solemn promise.” As the Mediatrix of all graces, we receive her unending wealth of grace, and a specially created grace to join our hearts through hers to the Sacred Heart of Jesus. She promises to gift, “…all the graces God has bestowed on me!”

“I promise to never leave your side”, offering protection and guidance through the bleakness of the dark times of the great tribulation, as you will be enclosed in the folds of her mantle and saved from the snares of Satan. “You are set free from the world and captured by me.”

“You shall be my precious child.”

Each consecrated soul “is endowed with all merits of my heavenly grace.” “For through my heart they shall find His in a most profound way!”

 

[Godfollower]

1 John:

22Who is the liar? It is the man who denies that Jesus is the Christ. Such a man is the antichrist—he denies the Father and the Son. 23**No one who denies the Son has the Father; whoever acknowledges the Son has the Father also. **

You should read that passage in context.

They went out from us, but they were not of us. For if they had been of us, they would no doubt have remained with us; but that they may be manifest, that they are not all of us. But you have the unction from the Holy One, and know all things. I have not written to you as to them that know not the truth, but as to them that know it: and that no lie is of the truth. Who is a liar, but he who denieth that Jesus is the Christ? This is Antichrist, who denieth the Father, and the Son. Whosoever denieth the Son, the same hath not the Father. He that confesseth the Son, hath the Father also. As for you, let that which you have heard from the beginning, abide in you. If that abide in you, which you have heard from the beginning, you also shall abide in the Son, and in the Father. And this is the promise which he hath promised us, life everlasting.

1 John 2:19-25.

That passage clearly states that John is not writing about people who do not know the truth; he’s talking about former Christians, who know better but have left the faith, denying Christ. He isn’t talking about people who were never Christians in the first place.

Luke wrote quite clearly that Paul said it is possible to worship God without knowing Him:

But Paul standing in the midst of the Areopagus, said: Ye men of Athens, I perceive that in all things you are too superstitious. For passing by, and seeing your idols, I found an altar also, on which was written: To the unknown God. What therefore you worship, without knowing it, that I preach to you:God, who made the world, and all things therein; he, being Lord of heaven and earth, dwelleth not in temples made with hands; Neither is he served with men’s hands, as though he needed any thing; seeing it is he who giveth to all life, and breath, and all things:

Acts of the Apostles 17:22-25.

There is only one God, and the Muslims worship Him. They just don’t understand Him correctly.