Catechism of the Catholic Church Paragraph 841?!?

[matahari]

Surely its better to start at a starting point for dialogue - Monotheism . Both Muslims and Christians believe in One God. Thats already a plus. Then through praying the Rosary which Our Lady has requested and through dialogue deal with the differences. If we do not pray for and communicate with Muslims then we fall back into the old ways of mutual condemnation and warlike attitudes. Perhaps our perception of the problem needs to change. Some people looking at a glass with water in it will say - This glass is half empty Others looking at the same glass will say - This glass is half full Which one is right? On a more hopeful note it was the belief of Bishop Fulton Sheen that the conversion of Muslims would be brought about by Our Lady !

 

[Hypothesis]

That is not true, we accept Jesus but not in the same way you do. Rejecting Jesus would mean rejecting the Quran. We accept him as a great Prophet and Messenger, we accept his miraculous birth, we accept his miracles but with a caveat, that Jesus performed those miracles with God’s permission. Actually Muslims are closer to accepting Jesus than the Jews are, yet the Jews are considered to be believers in the same God as Christians, and Muslims are not, I don’t get it.

Wordplay. By rejecting Jesus I meant, you reject his death on the cross for the sins of the world. By rejecting Jesus you reject his resurrection from the dead. By rejecting Jesus you reject that he was the Christ the Son of the Living God.

Even the demons believe in Jesus, so what?

 

[ralphinal]

I think that we keep missing the whole thing.

Muslims PROFESS to follow the faith of Abraham. That does not mean that they DO follow the faith of Abraham. They CLAIM to follow it.

If they DO follow it, they adore the same GOd.

However, they do not see the Trinity, so their understanding is limited and incomplete.

They do not see God as the Father, so their understanding is flawed and limited.

They do see a God who is capable of lying to men. That is a whole story altogether.

They INTEND and CLAIM to worship the same God, but they do not have a proper understanding of him. Now, that may mean that they do not, in fact, accomplish anything.

 

[famdigy]

Wordplay. By rejecting Jesus I meant, you reject his death on the cross for the sins of the world. By rejecting Jesus you reject his resurrection from the dead. By rejecting Jesus you reject that he was the Christ the Son of the Living God.

Even the demons believe in Jesus, so what?

what about the Jews, they reject Jesus as well don’t they? yet they believe in the same God as Christians, as one of your sisters put it, ‘Christians are further along in the knowledge of God than the Jews’.

There’s a double standard here, why?

 

[BRIT72]

what about the Jews, they reject Jesus as well don’t they? yet they believe in the same God as Christians, as one of your sisters put it, ‘Christians are further along in the knowledge of God than the Jews’.

There’s a double standard here, why?

Anyone who does not believe that Jesus Christ did enough to get them to heaven, has rejected him. His work alone on the cross of calvary and nothing added. Works based salvation will land a person in hell. Wholly lean on Christ and his finished work. We can never do enough to get us to heaven, we will surely perish if we try.

 

[ralphinal]

what about the Jews, they reject Jesus as well don’t they? yet they believe in the same God as Christians, as one of your sisters put it, ‘Christians are further along in the knowledge of God than the Jews’.

There’s a double standard here, why?

Muslims are not as far along as Jews are. They deny the Fatherhood of God, the accept a God that is capable of lying to man, and did lie to men. They do not see God as having the authority to prevent his Scriptures from being altered. Muslims accept that God can sware oaths on things that he created, elevating them above himself. Muslims hold that God can ignore his own covenants with Mankind, breaking the bond as man tries to do.

 

[BRIT72]

Muslims are not as far along as Jews are. They deny the Fatherhood of God, the accept a God that is capable of lying to man, and did lie to men. They do not see God as having the authority to prevent his Scriptures from being altered. Muslims accept that God can sware oaths on things that he created, elevating them above himself. Muslims hold that God can ignore his own covenants with Mankind, breaking the bond as man tries to do.

The thing is, it doesn’t matter if you are a muslim, a Jew, or anything else, if you are outside of Christ, you are lost. No-one is any closer to God than the other, you are on your way to hell if you do not trust Christ as your own and personal Saviour.

 

[ralphinal]

The thing is, it doesn’t matter if you are a muslim, a Jew, or anything else, if you are outside of Christ, you are lost. No-one is any closer to God than the other, you are on your way to hell if you do not trust Christ as your own and personal Saviour.

First, what if they do not know Christ to choose?

Second, where does it say in the bible to trust Christ as “your own and personal Savior?”

 

[BRIT72]

First, what if they do not know Christ to choose?

Second, where does it say in the bible to trust Christ as “your own and personal Savior?”

I can only leave that in God’s hands as I dont know for sure what will happen to people who do not know of Christ, but the Bible does say that Christ is the only way to God, that we are all sinners and that no-one will have any excuse.

He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him. John 3:36.
It’s a personal choice, not everyone will be saved, but those who choose to believe.

 

[ralphinal]

I can only leave that in God’s hands as I dont know for sure what will happen to people who do not know of Christ, but the Bible does say that Christ is the only way to God, that we are all sinners and that no-one will have any excuse.

He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him. John 3:36.
It’s a personal choice, not everyone will be saved, but those who choose to believe.

First part, I agree. Second part, that does not say anything about a personal savior. Besides, what does it mean to believe in Jesus?

 

[BRIT72]

First part, I agree. Second part, that does not say anything about a personal savior. Besides, what does it mean to believe in Jesus?

To believe that he died for me, personally, this is my point.
If we dont believe he died for us and personally, how can we say we trust him. How can we be born again. It is personal, there is no getting away from it.

 

[ralphinal]

To believe that he died for me, personally, this is my point.
If we dont believe he died for us and personally, how can we say we trust him. How can we be born again. It is personal, there is no getting away from it.

Check it with John 3:36. That tells you what it means to believe in Jesus

 

[BRIT72]

Check it with John 3:36. That tells you what it means to believe in Jesus

He who Believes, to believe is a personal thing right?
HATH everlasting life, he has everlasting life.

 

[ralphinal]

He who Believes, to believe is a personal thing right?
HATH everlasting life, he has everlasting life.

Is that what 3:36 says?

 

[BRIT72]

Is that what 3:36 says?

If you believe on the Son, you have everlasting life, if you don’t you won’t see life, is it not plain enough.

 

[ralphinal]

If you believe on the Son, you have everlasting life, if you don’t you won’t see life, is it not plain enough.

Ah, we have a translation issue…
This is one translation

“He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.”

Now, works better with the actual words used in the Greek, where πιστευων { verb - present active participle - nominative singular masculine
pisteuo pist-yoo’-o: to have faith (in, upon, or with respect to, a person or thing), i.e. credit; by implication, to entrust (especially one’s spiritual well-being to Christ)} is used the first believe and απειθων {verb - present active participle - nominative singular masculine
apeitheo ap-i-theh’-o: to disbelieve (wilfully and perversely) – not believe, disobedient, obey not, unbelieving.} is used for the second one

So, the Greek is saying that to Believe is to OBEY Jesus. It is not about faith but about doing what he tells us to do.

 

[BRIT72]

Ah, we have a translation issue…
This is one translation

Now, works better with the actual words used in the Greek, where πιστευων { verb - present active participle - nominative singular masculine
pisteuo pist-yoo’-o: to have faith (in, upon, or with respect to, a person or thing), i.e. credit; by implication, to entrust (especially one’s spiritual well-being to Christ)} is used the first believe and απειθων {verb - present active participle - nominative singular masculine
apeitheo ap-i-theh’-o: to disbelieve (wilfully and perversely) – not believe, disobedient, obey not, unbelieving.} is used for the second one

So, the Greek is saying that to Believe is to OBEY Jesus. It is not about faith but about doing what he tells us to do.

I have the correct translation, but even in your translation, to obey is to do as God asks and believe on his Son. When we trust Christ, we are obeying his word…

 

[ralphinal]

I have the correct translation, but even in your translation, to obey is to do as God asks and believe on his Son. When we trust Christ, we are obeying his word…

No, you have a translation. No translation is directly endorsed by God.

Yes, trusting Christ is obeying him. So is feeding the hungry.

Jesus tells us that if we love him, we will keep his commandments. To believe in Christ is to love him.

If you do not keep his commandments, you do not love him. If you do not love him, you do not believe.

 

[BRIT72]

No, you have a translation. No translation is directly endorsed by God.

Yes, trusting Christ is obeying him. So is feeding the hungry.

Jesus tells us that if we love him, we will keep his commandments. To believe in Christ is to love him.

If you do not keep his commandments, you do not love him. If you do not love him, you do not believe.

If you you dont trust in him, you have broken the commandment to be born again, if you are not born again, how can you expect to keep any other commandment.

It’s not the ten commandments the Lord is talking about you know.

If a person is not born again, he does not have the Holy Spirit and can not expect to be able to keep the Lord’s commandments.

**I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me. Galatians 2:20. **

 

[ralphinal]

If you you dont trust in him, you have broken the commandment to be born again, if you are not born again, how can you expect to keep any other commandment.

It’s not the ten commandments the Lord is talking about you know.

If a person is not born again, he does not have the Holy Spirit and can not expect to be able to keep the Lord’s commandments.

**I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me. Galatians 2:20. **

Born again of WATER and the SPIRIT (John 3)? Saved by Baptism as Noah was saved (1 Peter)?

No, it is not the Ten Commandments. It is the Gospel of Love taught by Christ. First, love God, then love each other.

We are getting off the topic…