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findingmyself08
Guest
The Church is not saying that Islam is the same or equal to Christianity. I would say you should re-read what was posted above.
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jam070406
Guest
I agree with you.I also have a big problem with it. I understand the apologetic from the Catholic perspective…and I have debated it many times. However, I do not agree with this teaching about Muslims worshipping the same God as the Christians…and I suppose I never will agree with it.
Sura 4:171 (Koran)– Allah forbid that he should have a son!
1 John 2:23 (Douay-Rheims)– Whosoever denieth the Son, the same hath not the Father.
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Vouthon
Guest
I think that Pope St Gregory VII explained it best:
“…He who enlightens all men coming into this world (John 1.9) has enlightened your mind for this purpose. Almighty God, who wishes that all should be saved and none lost, approves nothing in so much as that after loving Him one should love his fellow man, and that one should not do to others, what one does not want done to oneself. This affection we and you owe to each other in a more peculiar way than to people of other races because **we worship and confess the same God though in diverse forms **and daily praise and adore Him as the creator and ruler of this world. For, in the words of the Apostle, ‘He is our peace who hath made both one.’ This good action was inspired in your heart by God…This grace granted to you by God is admired and praised by many of the Roman nobility who have learned from us of your benevolence and high qualities . . .] For God knows that we love you purely for His honour and that we desire your salvation and glory, both in this life and in the life to come. And we pray in our hearts and with our lips that God may lead you to the abode of happiness, to the bosom of the holy patriarch Abraham, after long years of life here on earth…”
- Pope St. Gregory VII, Letter XXI to Al-Nasir the Muslim Ruler of Bijaya (Algeria), 1076
“…He who enlightens all men coming into this world (John 1.9) has enlightened your mind for this purpose. Almighty God, who wishes that all should be saved and none lost, approves nothing in so much as that after loving Him one should love his fellow man, and that one should not do to others, what one does not want done to oneself. This affection we and you owe to each other in a more peculiar way than to people of other races because **we worship and confess the same God though in diverse forms **and daily praise and adore Him as the creator and ruler of this world. For, in the words of the Apostle, ‘He is our peace who hath made both one.’ This good action was inspired in your heart by God…This grace granted to you by God is admired and praised by many of the Roman nobility who have learned from us of your benevolence and high qualities . . .] For God knows that we love you purely for His honour and that we desire your salvation and glory, both in this life and in the life to come. And we pray in our hearts and with our lips that God may lead you to the abode of happiness, to the bosom of the holy patriarch Abraham, after long years of life here on earth…”
- Pope St. Gregory VII, Letter XXI to Al-Nasir the Muslim Ruler of Bijaya (Algeria), 1076
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Godfollower
Guest
Not to worry: it doesn’t. Islam is not equal to Christianity. Let’s examine the paragraph that’s bothering you, point by point:
A true statement, yes? The plan of salvation includes everyone (“For God sent not his Son into the world, to judge the world, but that the world may be saved by him”). That doesn’t mean that everyone actually is going to be saved, because we are free to reject His grace; but the plan of salvation does include everyone.
Yes, they claim to follow Abraham through Ishmael. No big deal here, right?
They adore God. Is that not true? We also adore God. Which God? The only one there is, and He will be mankind’s judge on the last day.
But the Catechism does not teach that following Islam will lead you to salvation. It is possible for a Muslim to receive salvation, of course, but that’s not the same thing. Islam is insufficient to receive salvation, and the Church has never taught otherwise. We are, however, willing to acknowledge that they are adoring the one, true God despite the fact that they woefully misunderstand Him.
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jam070406
Guest
Uh huh… and 20 years later the first Crusade is called.
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john81
Guest
Speaking the truth is charity!! For goodness sakes people!! All who are trying to rationalize the Muslims beliefs are just not correct in their thinking! The Jews and the Muslims deny the Son of God made Man!! You cannot believe in an “altered God”. All the comparisons of different political beliefs, or race, is not logical. God is Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. To deny one of the persons is to deny the Trinity. And what is God?? The Trinity people!!
I am sorry for being a little over the top, but come on!! We are Catholics and the initial thread poster (I am not sure of his/her domain name) has it correct. As our Lord said, “I am the Way, the Truth, and the Life”.
Think of it this way; A Jew/Muslim true to their “own” faith (not the true faith) dies and is on the judgement seat. Jesus himself is the judge in front of this person. Above his head reads “All who believe in me will be saved”. What will Christ say to this person? Is it not Church teaching (along with common sense) that the first question Jesus will ask is “Did you believe in Me?”.
Let us all remember that these two faiths (Judaism, Islam) deny Christ our King, Our Savior, and Our Lord. AMEN!
God bless
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robwar
Guest
as one of the other poster said, if you read beyond that, it does say that there is no salvation outside of the Catholic Church. It might be easy to misinterpret 841. I Think what it is saying that as a monotheist religion, they are worshiping one God as Jews do. There understanding is corrupt obviously. Remember, the first gentile followers were the magi, they were astrologers. That is a false religion or belief system. But even in that there were threads of truth that they followed and it lead them to Christ. Does that mean we should follow astrology? no but the Catholic Church recognizes more so than Protestantism that other faiths have truths in them. That does not equalize other beliefs or faiths but hopefully someone in that belief system will start to follow what truth they have and have it lead to Christ. Coming from a strong Protestant background like you currently are, it takes time to understand this about other faiths. Islam is a false religion but they do believe in one God.
You can hope and pray that they would learn to follow this as well as what they believe about the Virgin Birth and that at least Jesus is a prophet to complete truth and freedom.
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john81
Guest
Please keep these strong beliefs concerning OLJC, because you are on the right path. Post Vatican II teaching is that the Muslims believe in the same God, and that is a whole other discussion.
Of course speaking to a priest is best, but if I could one piece of advice on the salvation part. Think of your soul as having sactifying grace (which means if you died, you would go to purgatory and/or Heaven) or not having sactifying grace (which, if you died you would go to Hell). It’s no more difficult than that.
God bless
J
jam070406
Guest
Misunderstand? Uh no. They REJECT the Trinity. Therefore they reject the gift of Faith and the plan of salvation.
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Godfollower
Guest
That’s right: they deny something of our faith. That’s why they’re different.
But the God they worship is the only God there is. Any they worship Him, and so do we.
No one here is trying to “rationalize Muslim beliefs.” All we’re saying is that the Church – the Pillar of Truth according to Scripture – has said that Muslims adore the one, true God. Not that they’re all saved. Not that their worship is best (or even proper). Not that the Koran is true. Not that their description of God is correct. Not anything else.
Jews and Muslims alike deny the Trinity, and they deny Jesus’ divinity. If that means that Muslims are worshipping a different God, then so are the Jews – and that’s pure nonsense.
Not to mention the heretical implications of claiming that there even is a different god out there that they’re worshipping. We’re a monotheistic religion because there isn’t such a thing.
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john81
Guest
I wanted to add a little caveat to my posting. I certainly don’t deny that if a Jew or Muslim has never heard of the Catholic religion (which has to be almost impossible in this day and age of technology) and truly follows the natural law to the best of his ability he/she (as the catechism says) “may” be saved. But to say that we believe in the same God is just false!
God bless
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Godfollower
Guest
So what? That doesn’t mean that they’re worshipping some other god out there that’s kind of like ours but different.
They adore the one, true God, mankind’s judge on the last day. That doesn’t mean they’re saved; that doesn’t mean that they agree with us; and that doesn’t mean that they’re right. It just means that they adore God. That’s all.
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john81
Guest
How can you say that the Jews worship the same God if they don’t believe in God!!
Jesus is God, the Jews don’t believe in Jesus, the Jews don’t believe in God.
A simple syllogism. Again, I still believe they “may be saved” if they follow the natural law as I said before, but they do not believe in the same God.
God bless
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Godfollower
Guest
If that’s true, then the Catholic Church is teaching falsehood.
Lumen Gentium ¶ 16.
On the other hand, perhaps you’re simply mistaken. Perhaps we all worship the same God – the only God who actually exists – but they describe Him incorrectly (e.g., they deny various attributes of God – His triune nature, His mercy, His Incarnation, etc.). That doesn’t mean that they aren’t worshipping the same God we are.
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Vouthon
Guest
So Pope Saint Greory VII and Blessed Pope John Paul II are ‘wrong’? Did they have a poor grasp of theology?
Well you really won’t like Pope Pius XI either then:
"…Do not think you are going to a country of heathens [or “among infidels”]. Muslims attain to salvation. The ways of God are infinite…”
***- Pope Pius XI, 1934 (L’Ultima, Florence, Anno VIII) ***
****Note: the Pope didn’t say “all” Muslims. He was stating it as a principle *******
I will let the SSPX founder and famous traditioinalist Lefebvre speak in my behalf:
"…There are three ways of receiving baptism: the baptism of water; the baptism of blood (that of the martyrs who confessed the faith while still catechumens) and baptism of desire.
Baptism of desire can be explicit…The doctrine of the Church also recognizes implicit baptism of desire. This consists in doing the will of God. God knows all men and He knows that amongst Protestants, Muslims, Buddhists and in the whole of humanity there are men of good will. They receive the grace of baptism without knowing it, but in an effective way. In this way they become part of the Church…"
***- (Archbishop Lefebvre, Open Letter to Confused Catholics) ***
Jews, atheists, Baha’is, Hindus, Buddhists and Muslims etc. can attain to salvation if they are spiritually speaking joined to the Catholic Church as informal members through implicit baptism by desire which consists in following the Will of God as known to one’s conscience, to the best of one’s ability and knowledge responding to the grace granted to oneself by God.
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crimtidegirl
Guest
Thank you! I am glad you & some others feel the same way. I will continue to study the Catechism. I live in a VERY Protestant area so I do not personally know any Catholics to ask about these matters. I rely on the Catholic apps, the Catechism & Catholic radio to learn about the faith. Thanks for your replies & God Bless!
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dzheremi
Guest
Ahhh…this perennial favorite! 
Rejection of Christ is rejection of the Father who sent Him, and rejection of His plan for salvation of all mankind. So nobody who rejects the Son can somehow still be worshiping the Father. That includes the Muslims and the Jews and all the other Christ-deniers, and it’s Biblical and Patristic and the whole bit. The Jews don’t worship God, and to make the first deniers of Christ our God into some sort of paragon of worship of God is frankly bizarre.
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“Indeed all scripture teems with disproof of Jewish unbelief.”** - St. Athanasius the Apostolic, On the Incarnation of the Word of God (4th century AD)
I’d trust St. Athanasius a million times over before I’d listen to CCC 841, even if Pope Benedict XIV showed up on my doorstep offering to explain it to me himself. But everyone has to make a choice, I guess. Best of luck in yours, OP.
Rejection of Christ is rejection of the Father who sent Him, and rejection of His plan for salvation of all mankind. So nobody who rejects the Son can somehow still be worshiping the Father. That includes the Muslims and the Jews and all the other Christ-deniers, and it’s Biblical and Patristic and the whole bit. The Jews don’t worship God, and to make the first deniers of Christ our God into some sort of paragon of worship of God is frankly bizarre.
**
“Indeed all scripture teems with disproof of Jewish unbelief.”** - St. Athanasius the Apostolic, On the Incarnation of the Word of God (4th century AD)
I’d trust St. Athanasius a million times over before I’d listen to CCC 841, even if Pope Benedict XIV showed up on my doorstep offering to explain it to me himself. But everyone has to make a choice, I guess. Best of luck in yours, OP.
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john81
Guest
God cannot be broken up into parts (nature, mercy, incarnation) and only be believed in those parts. He is and always will be unchanging “world without end. Amen”. You cannot believe in a triune God and say that those who deny the very nature of God worship the same thing.
It’s like believing water is fire (because you are mistaken about the nature of the thing) but being told you really do believe in water because you “think” that water is fire. No!! You really don’t believe in water, just as the Jews and Muslims really don’t believe in the same God. They may think they do, but they don’t!
God bless
J
john81
Guest
I completely agree! All I said is that they don’t worship the same God. Not that they cannot be saved as I said before.So Pope Saint Greory VII and Blessed Pope John Paul II are ‘wrong’? Did they have a poor grasp of theology?
Well you really won’t like Pope Pius XI either then:
"…Do not think you are going to a country of heathens [or “among infidels”]. Muslims attain to salvation. The ways of God are infinite…”
***- Pope Pius XI, 1934 (L’Ultima, Florence, Anno VIII) ***
****Note: the Pope didn’t say “all” Muslims. He was stating it as a principle *******
I will let the SSPX founder and famous traditioinalist Lefebvre speak in my behalf:
"…There are three ways of receiving baptism: the baptism of water; the baptism of blood (that of the martyrs who confessed the faith while still catechumens) and baptism of desire.
Baptism of desire can be explicit…The doctrine of the Church also recognizes implicit baptism of desire. This consists in doing the will of God. God knows all men and He knows that amongst Protestants, Muslims, Buddhists and in the whole of humanity there are men of good will. They receive the grace of baptism without knowing it, but in an effective way. In this way they become part of the Church…"
***- (Archbishop Lefebvre, Open Letter to Confused Catholics) ***
Jews, atheists, Baha’is, Hindus, Buddhists and Muslims etc. can attain to salvation if they are spiritually speaking joined to the Catholic Church as informal members through implicit baptism by desire which consists in following the Will of God as known to one’s conscience, to the best of one’s ability and knowledge responding to the grace granted to oneself by God.
God bless
P
PJM
Guest
THANKS for the opportunity to respond.
The Catechism MUST BE THE TRUTH
BUT … what does it mean?841 The Church’s relationship with the Muslims. “The plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator, in the first place amongst whom are the Muslims; these profess to hold the faith of Abraham, and together with us they adore the one, merciful God, mankind’s judge on the last day.”
THIS MEANS:
- That they like us worship the SAME god that is thee GOD of Abraham
a. that we hold the same “faith beliefs”
b. “Truth” is singular and Catholics have it; Muslim’s do not
c. No where in the entire bible [which is NOT accepted by the Musilm faith] does God [Abraham’s God]; ever approve of belief in others forms of "faith beliefs-even of the SAME God] but always ONLY Him; ONLY as He Teaches it and commands; and ONLY WHAT He Himself commandss.
SO WHILE AN ACCURATE teaching and FACT; they nevertheless worship the “right and ONLY God”, in a very incorrect and personal manner as they choose freely to ignore GODS Divine WORDS and teaching; effectively making there “faith beliefs” a direct opposition of what God proclaims is necessary for ones salvation:
Acts 4: “be it known to you all, and to all the people of Israel, that by the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom you crucified, whom God raised from the dead, by him this man is standing before you well. This is the stone which was rejected by you builders, but which has become the head of the corner. And there is salvation in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved.”
Hope this clarifies this for you? If not PLEASE let me know.
God Bless you, Pat /PJM on this FORUM
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