Catechism paragraph 841 Muslims

[jam070406]

What about killing Christians in the name of Christ? Christians are guilty of just as many sins as non-Christians. Do they therefore worship a false God?

This is a strawman.
The “god” in the Koran condones spreading faith by the sword.

 

[Mickey]

The logical flip side of that equation is:
Jesus and the Father are one
Reject following Jesus
Reject following the Father, God.

Indeed. Our God is Trinitarian. To reject God the Son…is to reject God the Father…is to reject God the Holy Spirit. The muslims consciously and knowingly reject Christ. They consciously and knowingly reject the Trinitarian God. Therefore, it is impossible that they are worshipping the same God.

I believe that the “same God” teaching is an ill-advised and overreaching attempt at ecumenism.

 

[AmbroseSJ]

Indeed. Our God is Trinitarian. To reject God the Son…is to reject God the Father…is to reject God the Holy Spirit. The muslims consciously and knowingly reject Christ. They consciously and knowingly reject the Trinitarian God. Therefore, it is impossible that they are worshipping the same God.

I believe that the “same God” teaching is an ill-advised and overreaching attempt at ecumenism.

That would mean that you consider Jews to be worshipping a different God too, which is wrong.

The Trinitarian nature of God was a revelation by Jesus. Before that revelation, all of the Holy Prophets and Patriarchs worshipped some other God as well! But that also is false.

The One God is the same God we worship, as well as the Jews and Muslims. That we have revelation regarding the True Nature of God, is a special favor and grace to Believers. That is why we are commanded to spread the Gospel to everyone. It is a grace we must share. We received it freely, and we must share it freely.

People that reject the Trinitarian God are lacking in Faith. However, that Faith comes from God, so we should continue to pray that the grace to believe is given to all.

 

[Mickey]

That would mean that you consider Jews to be worshipping a different God too, which is wrong.

Do they worship the Trinity? Do they recognize Christ as true God?

The Trinitarian nature of God was a revelation by Jesus.

“If you believed Moses, you would believe me; for he wrote of me"
[John 5:46]****

The One God is the same God we worship, as well as the Jews and Muslims.

Again…I am not in agreement with that statement. You are free to believe it if you wish.

1 John 2:23 (Douay-Rheims)–Whosoever denieth the Son, the same hath not the Father.

That is why we are commanded to spread the Gospel to everyone.

Yes. Many have proclaimed the Gospel to Jews and Muslims and they reject it. My prayer is that many will receive the truth and come to worship the true God…the Trinitarian God.

It is a grace we must share. We received it freely, and we must share it freely.

Indeed.

so we should continue to pray that the grace to believe is given to all.

Amen.

 

[jam070406]

That would mean that you consider Jews to be worshipping a different God too, which is wrong.

The Trinitarian nature of God was a revelation by Jesus. Before that revelation, all of the Holy Prophets and Patriarchs worshipped some other God as well! But that also is false.

The One God is the same God we worship, as well as the Jews and Muslims. That we have revelation regarding the True Nature of God, is a special favor and grace to Believers. That is why we are commanded to spread the Gospel to everyone. It is a grace we must share. We received it freely, and we must share it freely.

People that reject the Trinitarian God are lacking in Faith. However, that Faith comes from God, so we should continue to pray that the grace to believe is given to all.

The Jews received the grace freely as well, before the gentiles in fact. They became the Church.

 

[NorthTexan88]

This is to the OP. I grew up in Alabama in a REALLY conservative church of Christ household and was always tought the same thing as you in regards to Muslims etc…and as a matter of fact I am still getting used to it. I think people who grow up catholic can grasp this but people who grow up Protestant don’t understand this and it’s hard to get our heads around. I am still trying to figure out for myself about this, I have also been in a spiritual drought lately (please pray!!).
On the one hand you have the CCC, which is not infallible but sums up the faith.
On the other hand you have 2,000 years of tradition and the Bible. This is something I have struggled with lately.
But trust me it is very hard to get your head around if your not used to it.

I would be very interested in what the orthodox churches teach about this

 

[Mickey]

I would be very interested in what the orthodox churches teach about this

There is nothing mandated or officially taught that we are bound to accept. The majority of writings I have seen do not agree with CCC841. The Orthodox have countless holy martyrs created under the oppressive yoke of the muslims and countless new martyrs created by the Ottoman empire. I have read dozens of writings regarding the lives of these saints.

I have never seen a situation where the martyr…after being arrested, imprisoned, and systematically and gruesomely tortured for the sake of Christ before being murdered…has claimed that those who were doing the torturing and murdering worshipped the same God.

 

[Godfollower]

There is nothing mandated or officially taught that we are bound to accept. The majority of writings I have seen do not agree with CCC841. The Orthodox have countless holy martyrs created under the oppressive yoke of the muslims and countless new martyrs created by the Ottoman empire. I have read dozens of writings regarding the lives of these saints.

I have never seen a situation where the martyr…after being arrested, imprisoned, and systematically and gruesomely tortured for the sake of Christ before being murdered…has claimed that those who were doing the torturing and murdering worshipped the same God.

Well, there’s St. John Ogilvie, and St. Margaret Clitherow of York, and St. Jan Sarkander . . . .

 

[dzheremi]

Well, there’s St. John Ogilvie, and St. Margaret Clitherow of York, and St. Jan Sarkander . . . .

None of which were martyred by Muslims, so they really have no place in this discussion. The new martyrs of the Orthodox Church that Mickey wrote about were martyred by the Ottoman Empire, not by Protestants in Western Europe.

I don’t believe that the majority of Orthodox Christians that you speak to, whether laity or clergy or bishops, agree with this idea that Christians and Muslims worship the same God. I know that nobody in my church here in Albuquerque does (they were quite vociferous in answering this question when I asked it), and I don’t think we’re an outlier in the Coptic world, where as I’m sure you know our people are being martyred in horrific ways today, far away from logical arguments about how many gods there are or who is worshiping what. Muslims have already made it abundantly clear what they think about our God.

New martyr for Christ Ayman Labib, pray for us.

 

[Godfollower]

None of which were martyred by Muslims, so they really have no place in this discussion. The new martyrs of the Orthodox Church that Mickey wrote about were martyred by the Ottoman Empire, not by Protestants in Western Europe.

I don’t believe that the majority of Orthodox Christians that you speak to, whether laity or clergy or bishops, agree with this idea that Christians and Muslims worship the same God. I know that nobody in my church here in Albuquerque does (they were quite vociferous in answering this question when I asked it), and I don’t think we’re an outlier in the Coptic world, where as I’m sure you know our people are being martyred in horrific ways today, far away from logical arguments about how many gods there are or who is worshiping what. Muslims have already made it abundantly clear what they think about our God.

New martyr for Christ Ayman Labib, pray for us.

They were martyrs who were “arrested, imprisoned, and systematically and gruesomely tortured for the sake of Christ before being murdered” but worshiped the same God as the Protestants who killed them.* I figured they were relevant as a counter-example to the argument that Muslims must not worship the same God as Christians because they torture Christians.

If Christians torture and kill each other in the name of Jesus, then it stands to reason that the “Muslims don’t worship God because they kill Christians” argument is a fallacy, yes?

---

• • Just as there are Protestant and Orthodox Christians who have been killed for their faith by Catholic authorities. These were simply some quick examples. I don’t mean to suggest that only Catholics have suffered.

 

[SonCatcher]

Well, there’s St. John Ogilvie, and St. Margaret Clitherow of York, and St. Jan Sarkander . . . .

They were martyred by Protestants.

St. Francis is recorded to have recognized Muslim claims to worship the God of Abraham and likely faced martyrdom at their hands.

 

[Godfollower]

They were martyred by Protestants.

St. Francis is recorded to have recognized Muslim claims to worship the God of Abraham and likely faced martyrdom at their hands.

Yes, they were martyred by Protestants. And “The plan of salvation also includes [Protestants]; these profess to hold the faith of Abraham, and together with us they adore the one, merciful God, mankind’s judge on the last day.”

Catholics and Protestants worship the same God, even if we torture and kill each other. Therefore, the fact of torturing and killing Christians isn’t what determines whether a particular person worships the same God we do.

 

[dzheremi]

If Christians torture and kill each other in the name of Jesus, then it stands to reason that the “Muslims don’t worship God because they kill Christians” argument is a fallacy, yes?

Yes, but I don’t think that’s what Mickey wrote. He wrote that he knows of no instance in which those Orthodox Christians martyred by Muslims professed that the two groups worship the same God. I’m not really surprised at that. I haven’t heard anything like that, either, since establishing who or what others worship is not really a part of Orthodox theology.

 

[Godfollower]

Yes, but I don’t think that’s what Mickey wrote. He wrote that he knows of no instance in which those Orthodox Christians martyred by Muslims professed that the two groups worship the same God. I’m not really surprised at that. I haven’t heard anything like that, either, since establishing who or what others worship is not really a part of Orthodox theology.

Okay; I guess that’s just the perils of internet debating, and the inability to convey tone. I took

I have never seen a situation where the martyr…after being arrested, imprisoned, and systematically and gruesomely tortured for the sake of Christ before being murdered…has claimed that those who were doing the torturing and murdering worshipped the same God.

to be an argument that your martyring of me means you worship a different God. I was just showing a counter-example in the Christians-killing-Christians context. If that’s not what Mickey meant, then I stand corrected and apologize.

 

[Mickey]

Yes, but I don’t think that’s what Mickey wrote. He wrote that he knows of no instance in which those Orthodox Christians martyred by Muslims professed that the two groups worship the same God. I’m not really surprised at that. I haven’t heard anything like that, either, since establishing who or what others worship is not really a part of Orthodox theology.

Correct. The “muslim same God theory” is a relatively new teaching. Here is an example of a couple things those martyrs did say:

“I have gone to your Mecca and have examined all of your faith, and I have understood that everything about it is false and abominable.”
(The Martyr, St Alexander the dervish +1794)

“Your faith was not given by God, but by a simple man named Muhammad, whereas our Orthodox Christian religion was given to us directly by God through Jesus Christ.”
(The Neo-Martyr St Dimitrii from Sliven, Bulgaria +1841)

“What good does your faith [Islam] have when it is deception, falsehood, myth, error…”
(The Neo-Martyr St Christos the boatman from Preveza, Greece—killed my the Muslims in 1668)

 

[SonCatcher]

Yes, they were martyred by Protestants. And “The plan of salvation also includes [Protestants]; these profess to hold the faith of Abraham, and together with us they adore the one, merciful God, mankind’s judge on the last day.”

Catholics and Protestants worship the same God, even if we torture and kill each other. Therefore, the fact of torturing and killing Christians isn’t what determines whether a particular person worships the same God we do.

Protestants are discussed in paragraph 838:
“The Church knows that she is joined in many ways to the baptized who are honored by the name of Christian, but do not profess the Catholic faith in its entirety or have not preserved unity or communion under the successor of Peter.” Those “who believe in Christ and have been properly baptized are put in a certain, although imperfect, communion with the Catholic Church.”

It really isn’t fitting to substitute them into a paragraph about a clearly lesser connection.

 

[Godfollower]

Correct. The “muslim same God theory” is a relatively new teaching. Here is an example of a couple things those martyrs did say:

“I have gone to your Mecca and have examined all of your faith, and I have understood that everything about it is false and abominable.”
(The Martyr, St Alexander the dervish +1794)

“Your faith was not given by God, but by a simple man named Muhammad, whereas our Orthodox Christian religion was given to us directly by God through Jesus Christ.”
(The Neo-Martyr St Dimitrii from Sliven, Bulgaria +1841)

“What good does your faith [Islam] have when it is deception, falsehood, myth, error…”
(The Neo-Martyr St Christos the boatman from Preveza, Greece—killed my the Muslims in 1668)

Come on. You know that not “all” of their faith is false. They teach that there’s only one God. They teach that rape is wrong. They teach that idolatry is wrong. They teach that helping the poor is good. They teach that healing the sick is good. Those parts of their faith, however imperfectly put, are correct.

There is, as the Catholic Church teaches, some truth in Islam. Not nearly as much truth as there is in the Catholic Church, but some truth.

One of those truths is that they adore God. That’s all 841 says. It doesn’t say that Islam is equal to Christianity, or good, or true, or anything else. Just that they adore God.

 

[Godfollower]

Godfollower;9633562:

Yes, they were martyred by Protestants. And “The plan of salvation also includes [Protestants]; these profess to hold the faith of Abraham, and together with us they adore the one, merciful God, mankind’s judge on the last day.”

Catholics and Protestants worship the same God, even if we torture and kill each other. Therefore, the fact of torturing and killing Christians isn’t what determines whether a particular person worships the same God we do.

Protestants are discussed in paragraph 838:
“The Church knows that she is joined in many ways to the baptized who are honored by the name of Christian, but do not profess the Catholic faith in its entirety or have not preserved unity or communion under the successor of Peter.” Those “who believe in Christ and have been properly baptized are put in a certain, although imperfect, communion with the Catholic Church.”

It really isn’t fitting to substitute them into a paragraph about a clearly lesser connection.

It simply makes the point that we worship the same God, even if we torture and kill each other. It isn’t demeaning to describe them that way, and it certainly isn’t meant to be hurtful.

 

[jam070406]

Come on. You know that not “all” of their faith is false. They teach that there’s only one God. They teach that rape is wrong. They teach that idolatry is wrong. They teach that helping the poor is good. They teach that healing the sick is good. Those parts of their faith, however imperfectly put, are correct.

There is, as the Catholic Church teaches, some truth in Islam. Not nearly as much truth as there is in the Catholic Church, but some truth.

One of those truths is that they adore God. That’s all 841 says. It doesn’t say that Islam is equal to Christianity, or good, or true, or anything else. Just that they adore God.

They don’t have Faith. Read Dominis Iesus.
Faith results in belief of the Trinity.

 

[Mickey]

Come on. You know that not “all” of their faith is false.

Really?

They teach that there’s only one God.

But it is not the Trinitarian God.

They teach that rape is wrong.

Atheists believe that also.

They teach that idolatry is wrong.

They say that we are idol worshippers with our Icons.

They teach that helping the poor is good.

Atheists believe that.

They teach that healing the sick is good.

Atheists believe that.

Those parts of their faith, however imperfectly put, are correct.

Those things are a part of basic morality and have nothing to do with the premise of this thread.

There is, as the Catholic Church teaches, some truth in Islam.

Such as?

Not nearly as much truth as there is in the Catholic Church, but some truth.

If there is any truth at all…some truth mixed with lies…is still a falsehood.

One of those truths is that they adore God.

Not the same God as the Christians.

That’s all 841 says.

Yeah…that is the contention here.

It doesn’t say that Islam is equal to Christianity, or good, or true, or anything else. Just that they adore God.

Not the Trinitarian God.

1 John 2:23 (Douay-Rheims)–Whosoever denieth the Son, the same hath not the Father.