Catechism paragraph 841 Muslims

[SaintPatrick333]

I also have a big problem with it. I understand the apologetic from the Catholic perspective…and I have debated it many times. However, I do not agree with this teaching about Muslims worshipping the same God as the Christians…and I suppose I never will agree with it.

Sura 4:171 (Koran)– Allah forbid that he should have a son!

---

1 John 2:23 (Douay-Rheims)– Whosoever denieth the Son, the same hath not the Father.

That’s when obedience to the Church must kick in. Trust that 2000 years of Tradition knows better than you do.

 

[Mickey]

That’s when obedience to the Church must kick in. Trust that 2000 years of Tradition knows better than you do.

Sacred Scripture is the 2000 year Tradition of the Church.

 

[dzheremi]

So the tradition of the CCC, which has of course not always had the offending paragraph in it to begin with, somehow trumps Scripture, the Fathers, and all of the Church? I don’t think so.

 

[kentuckyliz]

Robert Spencer has an interesting commentary on this question.

I saw him speak recently at FUS Defending the Faith.

He also has written a book questioning whether Mohammed really existed. St. Sophronius, the Patriarch of Jerusalem, kept detailed records of the Arab conquest of Jerusalem. There is no mention of any new religion, Allah, Mohammed, a new prophet, a new revelation, nothing. There is no contemporary evidence from the times when everything supposedly happened. It was written up later, perhaps as a religion cooked up to unite the Arab world politically and militarily.

There’s a debate video at that second link.

 

[Vouthon]

Is that an infallible statement from this Pope?

Its not infallible I should think in and of itself - it does demonstrate nonetheless that the acknowledgement of worship of the same God is part of Catholic tradition.

Nevertheless it is the reference for part of the Nostra Aeatate reference to Islam. The Vatican II document says:

**"…The Church regards with esteem also the Moslems. They adore the one God, living and subsisting in Himself; merciful and all- powerful, the Creator of heaven and earth,(5) who has spoken to men; they take pains to submit wholeheartedly to even His inscrutable decrees, just as Abraham, with whom the faith of Islam takes pleasure in linking itself, submitted to God…" **

The reference (5) is: Cf St. Gregory VII, letter XXI to Anzir (Nacir), King of Mauritania (Pl. 148, col. 450f.

So the Church has seen fit to have this Letter recognised and used by an Ecumenical Council, which obviously gives it great authority, quite apart from the authority it already has as an official papal letter.

 

[Godfollower]

Is that what Jesus told them? He told the Jews that rejected Him that their father was the devil.

Surely you aren’t actually claiming that they were the devil’s sons, right? Jesus was speaking metaphorically: if you reject me you reject the Father.

Because they’re the SAME GOD!!!

Remember His discussion with the Sadducees? “And concerning the resurrection of the dead, have you not read that which was spoken by God, saying to you: I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob? He is not the God of the dead, but of the living.”

Jesus Himself said that the God of Abraham is the same as the real God. So let’s analyze it:

• Jews worship the same God that Moses worshipped.
• Jesus said that the God that Moses worshipped was the Father.
• Jesus said that He was the same as the Father (“the Father and I are one”).
• We worship Jesus.

Therefore, we worship the same God that Jews worship.

 

[Mickey]

Its not infallible I should think in and of itself.

I did not think so.

 

[Godfollower]

Godfollower;9626055:

It’s just one clear note that we’re all worshipping the same God.

I don’t think so. It is my understanding that the CCC is not a papal infallible document.

Try Vatican II then:

But the plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator. In the first place amongst these there are the Mohammedans, who, professing to hold the faith of Abraham, along with us adore the one and merciful God, who on the last day will judge mankind.

Lumen Gentium ¶ 16.

 

[Mickey]

Therefore, we worship the same God that Jews worship.

But they reject Christ…and therefore they hath not the Father.

 

[Mickey]

Try Vatican II then:

I was told that was a pastoral council. Are you telling me that the council infallibly claimed that the muslims worship the same God as the Catholics?

 

[Godfollower]

I find it funny that there are some who would let any group have their own belief – even if it ends up with many different groups, with many different beliefs – and still have them all worshiping the One God. And if someone stands up and says “no, that can’t be right; There is indeed one God, and that’s Father, Son, and Holy Spirit”, then that person is told that they are somehow the one who is making a bunch of different Gods, one each for each different group! Isn’t that funny to anyone else? Really, it’s almost vaudvillean…

Welcome back ladies and gents! Now let’s tune back in as Abba Kyrillos’ brand Orban and St. Ephrem’s brand harp strings present another installment of everyone’s favorite comedy carousel, already and always in progress…

’WHICH PARAGRAPH OF THE CATECHISM OF THE CATHOLIC CHURCH IS ON FIRST?'

Orthoabbot: “Nope, Christ is God – not an additional God or one-third or whatever, but TRUE GOD. If you don’t worship Christ as God, and the Holy Spirit as God, and God the Father as God, in the uncreated and undivided Holy Trinity, then you don’t worship God”

Cathstello: “But what about the Jewwwwwws? They don’t worship Christ!”

O: “Exactly!”

A: “But that doesn’t make sense!”

O: “Yes, it does. It makes perfect sense. Let’s start again: Christ is God…”

Are you saying that Moses worshipped a demon? Or that John the Baptist worshipped the devil? Or that Jesus preached about non-existent entities when He taught in the synagogues? Because that’s the logical consequence of your argument.

 

[Godfollower]

Seeking after a messiah that will destroy your enemies (ie: Christians) and build an earthly kingdom is not worshiping the same true God.

Killing Christians in the name of Allah, conquering countries and spreading sharia law is not worshiping the same true God.

What about killing Christians in the name of Christ? Christians are guilty of just as many sins as non-Christians. Do they therefore worship a false God?

 

[dzheremi]

Are you saying that Moses worshipped a demon? Or that John the Baptist worshipped the devil? Or that Jesus preached about non-existent entities when He taught in the synagogues?

Nope, nope, and double nope.

Because that’s the logical consequence of your argument.

I’m not making a logical argument; I’m making a Christological argument.

 

[Vouthon]

I was told that was a pastoral council. Are you telling me that the council infallibly claimed that the muslims worship the same God as the Catholics?

There are other threads on this Vatican II is a binding ecumenical council that is equal in stature to any other ecumenical council. Vatican II introduced nothing new, however ie it did not define a new dogma (ie like previous councils defined the Trinity, the theotokos, nature of Christ etc.) what it did was provide an infallible interpretation of 2,000 years of Church tradition for modern times.

Among its documents were Dogmatic contitutions that infallbly interpret doctrine.

Paragraph 16 of The ***Dogmatic Constitution **on the Church (Lumen gentium) reads, in part:

"…In the first place we must recall the people to whom the testament and the promises were given and from whom Christ was born according to the flesh. On account of their fathers this people remains most dear to God, for God does not repent of the gifts He makes nor of the calls He issues. But the plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator. In the first place amongst these there are the Mohammedans, who, professing to hold the faith of Abraham, along with us adore the one and merciful God, who on the last day will judge mankind…"

This document is a dogmatic constitution promulgated by a legitimately assembled ecumenical council of the Church and approved by the Holy Father. Interpretations of this document and claims about its implications are perfectly legitimate. Outright denials of the document’s authority to teach the faith are not legitimate.

The statement above is infallible and binding on Catholics, however it should be interpreted. Hence why it is called DOGMATIC.

 

[Mickey]

what it did was provide an infallible interpretation of 2,000 years of Church tradition for modern times.

I’m fairly certain you cannot find the muslim same God teaching in the early centuries…or in medievel times and beyond for that matter.

** *But the plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator. ***

But Christ is the creator…and the muslims do not acknowledge Him.

***In the first place amongst these there are the Mohammedans, who, professing to hold the faith of Abraham, ***

They profess to hold the faith of Abraham…but do they?

along with us adore the one and merciful God, who on the last day will judge mankind…"

I believe this is an error…for the sake of ecumenism perhaps?

This document is a dogmatic constitution promulgated by a legitimately assembled ecumenical council of the Church and approved by the Holy Father.

If this is binding on your Church…that you must believe the muslim same God teaching…then I am glad it is not binding on me.

Interpretations of this document and claims about its implications are perfectly legitimate.

Ah…so there are different interpretations?

 

[Celtic_Maiden]

Muslims believe Jesus was a prophet like Mohammad. They do not believe Jesus was/is the Son of God. They too are denying the divinity of Jesus so it is as bad.

If Christ founded His Church, the idea that 600 years later God would start another doesn’t make sense. Christ is the Truth and there is only one Truth.

What you have all forgotten and the Moslems are very quiet to mention why I dont know- is they believe in the Quoran what it says about “Jesus” that the real Jesus was not crucified but rather they got hold of a look alike and crucified him and let the real Jesus away, now how the Moslems know this considering there religion was made up by Mohammed hundred and hundreds of years after Christianity is the first of there many lies made up about Christians and Jews in the Quoran, can you see the Jews who were so intent on crucifying him letting him go- the answer is no did’nt they choose Barabis when asked, which one do you want, just goes to show what drivel must be in that Quoran.

 

[1ke]

I do have a huge problem in the Church saying that Islam is the same or equal to Christianity.

The church does not teach this at all.

I would suggest you read the document Dominus Jesus for a much more in-depth treatment of the subject.

vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/cfaith/documents/rc_con_cfaith_doc_20000806_dominus-iesus_en.html

 

[johnnyc176]

Interesting talk by Scott Hahn.

youtube.com/watch?v=VBhq5RXu_W0&feature=plcp

 

[Church_Militant]

Hi. I was raised in a strong Protestant family but have been considering converting to Catholicism. I have been praying the Rosary & the Divine Office daily. While reading the Catechism I came across paragraph 841 which states that Muslims worship the same god as Christians. I have a BIG problem with that. Hopefully, someone can tell me I am misunderstanding what the Catechism is saying? Thanks and God Bless!

The statement is factually correct and touches pretty much the only place that we have in common with Islam. The Muslims profess belief in the same God of Abraham as the Jews. They profess to be descendants of Ishmael, and in that context the statement is accurate.

The problem I was having is that** Muslims don’t believe in the Trinity. In fact, they are downright hostile to Christianity.** I know they claim they worship the God of Abraham but I have read parts of the Koran. Muhammad was clearly a false prophet. I do not believe in political correctness; I believe in speaking the truth. No one enters the Kingdom of Heaven except through Jesus Christ.

It has nothing at all to do with political correctness. Not all Muslims are hostile to Christianity, in fact I have encountered some that were very much like Christians in charity and compassion. Rash generalizations are never correct or helpful in any way. I suggest that you take time to read 1st Peter 3:8-17 carefully and then 1st Corinthians 13 and then the Gospel account of Jesus and the woman at the well and contemplate all of that with your desire to speak the truth.

Their non-Trinitarian belief is, of course contrary to our faith, however, that is no different than Judaism.

Thanks for the replies. Mickey, I totally agree with you. If Muslims (or anyone else for that matter), don’t believe that Jesus is the Son of God, they are not saved. Period! You can have different beliefs about Jesus & still be saved, of course. But, if you don’t believe that Jesus is the Savior & the Son of God then you are not saved.

Nowhere in the Catechism passage that you have cited, nor anywhere else in authentic Catholic teachings, do we find any statement that says they are saved. In fact, you should take section 841 in the context of what follows, and I quote.

842 The Church’s bond with non-Christian religions is in the first place the common origin and end of the human race:

All nations form but one community. This is so because all stem from the one stock which God created to people the entire earth, and also because all share a common destiny, namely God. His providence, evident goodness, and saving designs extend to all against the day when the elect are gathered together in the holy city. . .331
843 The Catholic Church recognizes in other religions that search, among shadows and images, for the God who is unknown yet near since he gives life and breath and all things and wants all men to be saved. Thus, the Church considers all goodness and truth found in these religions as "a preparation for the Gospel and given by him who enlightens all men that they may at length have life."332
844 In their religious behavior, however, men also display the limits and errors that disfigure the image of God in them:

Very often, deceived by the Evil One, men have become vain in their reasonings, and have exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and served the creature rather than the Creator. Or else, living and dying in this world without God, they are exposed to ultimate despair.333

I do not believe that being saved is a one time event. I believe you can lose your salvation if you turn away from Christ. I just don’t see why you are having such a problem with my question. Of course God loves Muslims & wants them to be saved. He loves everyone. ** I do have a huge problem in the Church saying that Islam is the same or equal to Christianity.**

Your problem is that you are reading into the passage something that is not there. Nowhere in any of these sections, or in authentic Catholic teaching, does anyone even infer that Islam is equal to Christianity. You have misinterpreted what you read.

 

[jam070406]

Surely you aren’t actually claiming that they were the devil’s sons, right? Jesus was speaking metaphorically: if you reject me you reject the Father.

Because they’re the SAME GOD!!!

Remember His discussion with the Sadducees? “And concerning the resurrection of the dead, have you not read that which was spoken by God, saying to you: I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob? He is not the God of the dead, but of the living.”

Jesus Himself said that the God of Abraham is the same as the real God. So let’s analyze it:

• Jews worship the same God that Moses worshipped.
• Jesus said that the God that Moses worshipped was the Father.
• Jesus said that He was the same as the Father (“the Father and I are one”).
• We worship Jesus.

Therefore, we worship the same God that Jews worship.

The logical flip side of that equation is:
Jesus and the Father are one
Reject following Jesus
Reject following the Father, God.