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twb1621
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Do you believe Jesus is God or do you believe He lied throughout the NT? Or are you fearful to say what you believe?
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SD_Catholic
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This is the first definition given from the merriam-webster dictionary… I think it’s your self implied singular definition of “pray” that is creating your issue at this point. “prayer” to saints and other Christians is viewed a bit different then the “prayers” to God. When we “pray” to the saints, we are asking (requesting in a humble manner) them to join us in prayer to God… I know this does nothing to prove anything to you, but just showing you that the definition you are implying to “pray” should be expanded.
intransitive verb
1 : to make a request in a humble manner
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Tomster
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Dan,Tomster:
Dan,
That it is lawfull to pray FOR each other is admitted by all. St. Paul in his epistle to the Romans says: “Now I beseech you brethren, for the Lord’s Jesus Christ sake, and for the love of the Spirit, that you strive together with me in your prayers to God for me.” (Romans 15:30)
Dan:
I agree we can and should pray for each other. I am not quite sure why Catholics keep bringing this up in the context of whether Christians should pray to one another.
Tomster
Catholics believe that we can pray for each other while we are yet alive, and also that we can pray to the saints and that they are able to intercede in our behalf,
Dan:
The part that starts with and also is the part to which I object. It is almost as if your argument takes one truth and then trys to piggy back something else onto it in order to justify it. What does praying for each other have to do with praying to each other?
Tomster:
and assist us by their prayers before the throne of God. JW’s deny that the saints in heaven can intercede for us.
Dan:
Jehovah’s Witnesses teach that there is one intercessor and Hebrews describes this person and his attributes. Look at what is necessary to fulfill the role of intercessor and then show me a Saint that fits that description:
NJB Hebrews 7:23 Further, the former priests were many in number, because death put an end to each one of them; 24 but this one, because he remains for ever, has a perpetual priesthood. 25 It follows, then, that his power to save those who come to God through him is absolute, since he lives for ever to intercede for them. 26 Such is the high priest that met our need, holy, innocent and uncontaminated, set apart from sinners, and raised up above the heavens; 27 he has no need to offer sacrifices every day, as the high priests do, first for their own sins and only then for those of the people; this he did once and for all by offering himself. 28 The Law appoints high priests who are men subject to weakness; but the promise on oath, which came after the Law, appointed the Son who is made perfect for ever.
Note that there are two things that are necessary for the intercessor. To live forever. Granted Saints will also live forever, but even by your own admission they have not yet been resurrected. However the Son is raised up above the heavens. In addition he qualifies for this because he **once and for all offered himself **(as a sacrifice).
What Saint meets these requirements for being our intercessor?
Tomster:
Let us, again, see what the Bible says. I will take nothing for granted but will give, again, plenty of proof from the Word of God. St. John, in the book of Revelation describes the saints before the throne of God praying for their earthly brethren, “And when he had taken the Book, the four beasts, and the four and twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odors which are the prayers of the saints.” (Revelation 5:8)
Dan:
You have identified the existence of saints praying before the throne. They are praying to God (ie before the throne). What you have done is to show that we should pray to God. What you need is something that says to pray to Saints.
Tomster:
In the Book of Maccabees, we read how Judas Maccabees before he engaged in battle with Nicanor had a vision in which he saw Onias the high priest and Jeremiah the prophet: Onias prayed with outstrectched arms for the people of God and pointing to Jeremiah he said to Judas Maccabeus. “This is a lover his brethren, and the people of Israel. This is he that prayeth much for the people and for all the holy city, Jeremiah, the prophet of God” (Mac. 15:14)
Dan:
Praying for someone is not the same as praying to them. This argument is bait and switch
Tomster:
Now Jeremiah and Onias were long since dead at that time that this vision took place, and yet they are represented as being interested in their brethren and praying for their success in battle.
Dan:
No problem there. That is fine. But where does one human pray TO another human? Is that not what you are trying to prove?
Tomster:
We read in the Gospel of St. Luke 16:27 how even Dives prayed that a messenger should be sent to his friends to warn them against hell, and if Dives who was in hell was so interested in the welfare of his friends, who can suppose that the saints cannot intercede on our behalf?
Dan:
Once again there is no example of someone praying to someone else here at all.
Tomster:
Again, if the devil goes about like a roaring lion seeking whom he may devour (1 Peter 5:8) is it possible that that the good angels can do nothing to protect us from peril? These passages from the Bible ought to satisfy any reasonable person that the saints in heaven can, and do intercede fro their brethren on earth.
Dan:
I have no problem with the concept of a heavenly being assisting human beings. Angels did the same thing. Do you pray to angels? I was not aware that Catholics prayed to angels. Once again, no smoking gun here.
Tomster:
That the belief of Catholics at present was the belief of the early Church can be fully borne out by extracts from the writings of the Early Church Fathers from the 2nd through the 5th centuries long before the JW’s ever came into existence.
Once again, I hope this helps in your discernment process in trying to figure out what the Bible teaches on this matter. :tiphat:
Dan:
I have no problem figuring out what the bible really teaches on the matter. You have produced no verse that even remotely infers that a Christian prayed to a Christian or a Jew prayed to a Jew, etc.
Praying for each other is not the same as praying to each other.
You never answered this question:
Do you pray to living Christians on the earth and if no, why not?
The Catholic Church teaches that the split second after a person dies his soul is judged.
The soul of that person will be reunited with his body on the Last Day.
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Tomster
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Dan_Parker
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Interesting. so what about Purgatory? Can this judgment be tempered over time and what good do prayers to for those in Purgatory if their fate has already been pre-determined?
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Dan_Parker
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Do Catholics define their doctrine from an English dictionary, is this Webster Theology?
It would be better to look at the passages that deal with prayer and the Greek word used for prayer. It is PROSEUCHOMAI. BDAG says it means to petition deity, pray. I can find no example in Scripture where it is used as a request in a humble manner.
There is another word that can be used both ways. It is EPIKALEW (appeal). This word has mixed usage in Greek.
When Jesus spoke about praying to his Father he used PROSECHOMAI.
That being said, would all Catholics view prayer this way and can you show me a Catholic reference that defines it this way, Webster Theology notwithstanding
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twb1621
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Dan, it all comes back to one thing and all it takes is your response;Do Catholics define their doctrine from an English dictionary, is this Webster Theology?
It would be better to look at the passages that deal with prayer and the Greek word used for prayer. It is PROSEUCHOMAI. BDAG says it means to petition deity, pray. I can find no example in Scripture where it is used as a request in a humble manner.
There is another word that can be used both ways. It is EPIKALEW (appeal). This word has mixed usage in Greek.
When Jesus spoke about praying to his Father he used PROSECHOMAI.
That being said, would all Catholics view prayer this way and can you show me a Catholic reference that defines it this way, Webster Theology notwithstanding
There is only one God. Jesus proclaims He is God several times in the NT and the only words spoken from God as our Father in Heaven is in support of His son. If Jesus is God, which we believe through scripture in the mystery of the Trinity, it is faith that keeps us strong in His word. Do you believe Jesus is a liar throughout the NT or do you believe through Faith that Jesus is all Truth. If you believe Him to be deceitful, why would you honor Him as even a prophet or acknowledge Him as the Son of God?
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twb1621
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Scripture and Sacred Tradition, not a novel by Russell, define our Doctrines. You might compare the other 90% of scripture you have not yet become familiar with against that which you have been told to recite. It is also suggested you refer to scholarly interpretation of Greek as you are a bit distorted in your presentations of scriptural reference.Do Catholics define their doctrine from an English dictionary, is this Webster Theology?
It would be better to look at the passages that deal with prayer and the Greek word used for prayer. It is PROSEUCHOMAI. BDAG says it means to petition deity, pray. I can find no example in Scripture where it is used as a request in a humble manner.
There is another word that can be used both ways. It is EPIKALEW (appeal). This word has mixed usage in Greek.
When Jesus spoke about praying to his Father he used PROSECHOMAI.
That being said, would all Catholics view prayer this way and can you show me a Catholic reference that defines it this way, Webster Theology notwithstanding
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Tomster
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Amen to that!
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Tomster
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Dan,
Don’t deflect. We can discuss Purgatory on the apologetics board all day, every day if you like.
Please refute the tracts if you can.
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Dan_Parker
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I don’t debate links. As for Purgatory, how can it be said that God judges people at the split second that they die when Catholics pray to the Saints to help them? Do you not consider Purgatory to be something related to the Sacred Scriptures? As for your links, they seem to belong on the Apologetics board as well.
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SD_Catholic
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View prayer which way? Not sure what you mean by this, but even if I did I couldn’t speak for all Cahtolics.Do Catholics define their doctrine from an English dictionary, is this Webster Theology?
It would be better to look at the passages that deal with prayer and the Greek word used for prayer. It is PROSEUCHOMAI. BDAG says it means to petition deity, pray. I can find no example in Scripture where it is used as a request in a humble manner.
There is another word that can be used both ways. It is EPIKALEW (appeal). This word has mixed usage in Greek.
When Jesus spoke about praying to his Father he used PROSECHOMAI.
That being said, would all Catholics view prayer this way and can you show me a Catholic reference that defines it this way, Webster Theology notwithstanding
Do you mean a reference like this? from New Advent (Catholic Encyclopedia)
Prayer
(Greek euchesthai, Latin precari, French prier, to plead, to beg, to ask earnestly).
Followed by this
An act of the virtue of religion which consists in asking proper gifts or graces from God. In a more general sense it is the application of the mind to Divine things, not merely to acquire a knowledge of them but to make use of such knowledge as a means of union with God. This may be done by acts of praise and thanksgiving, but petition is the principal act of prayer.
Both ways are talked about here… It seems you are just trying to set the terms and limits for the use of the word prayer… trying to define our prayer life within jehovah witness restraints isn’t really something that is going to prove your point, since we don’t live our faith within those restraints.
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Tomster
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Dan,
I’m not asking you to debate the links. I’m asking you to refute them. Up to this point in time all we have received from you are denials. Please give us today’s, current teachings from the Brooklyn home office that refute the information on the links I provided.
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Tomster
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Dan_Parker
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Tomster
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Dan,I would sooner start a thread on the Easter Bunny
Why, then, did you bring it up?
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Tomster
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Dan_Parker
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Because even though you won’t acknowledge it, it refutes you. If the dead are judged within one second after they die, they of what good are prayers to the Saints on behalf of them? They cannot change God’s judgment, can they?
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jlhargus
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I now why not start one on the Great Pyramid.I would sooner start a thread on the Easter Bunny
Jehovah is pleased to use the slave class. The chief publication of Bible truth since 1879 is the Watchtower. WT 6/1/1963, p. 338 [Bold print of 1963 added by me]
“The ‘grand gallery’ measures 1874 inches long at the top, 1878 inches long at a groove cut in its sides about midway between bottom and top and 1881 inches, at the bottom…Now notice how aptly these three distinct dates (1874, 1878, 1881,) are marked by the pyramid…” WT 5/1881, p. 225
…the Great Pyramid, the measurements of which confirm the Bible teaching that 1878 marked the beginning of the harvest of the Gospel age… the harvest would close forty years thereafter; to wit, in the spring of A.D. 1918… we have only a few months in which to labor before the great night settles down when no man can work.” WT 10/1/1917, p. 6149 [pg 22 Index of Watch Tower Errors, David A Reed, editor compiled by Steve Huntoon & John Cornell, Baker Book House Grand Rapids, Michigan 49516]
“in the passages of the Great Pyramid of Gizeh the agreement of one or two measurements with present-turth chronology might be accidental, but the correspondency of dozens of measurements proves that the same God designed both pyramid and plan…” WT 6/15/1922, p. 187
All quotes from the book, Index of Watch Tower Errors, David A Reed, editor compiled by Steve Huntoon & John Cornell, Baker Book House Grand Rapids, Michigan 49516]
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ern42
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The entire Bible discredits the worship of saints. The catholic church re-wrote the 2nd commandment to suite itself. Their is ONLY ONE true Saint and Lord we should pray to and that is God! The other “saints” were mere humans just like me or you, full of sin and heartship. Jesus Christ was and is the only saint! He never sinned!!! Second, he NEVER established the catholic church! The catholic church has given itself that authority. Jesus used every second on earth wisely, he never wasted his time! The reason he came was to provide salvation and love to a lost world, not to create seperation, and give men his authority. Everything we do, we should do it IN THE NAME OF JESUS for his glory not the church! How divine do you think you are, to know what I beleive concerning the OT. The OT & the NT both are very clear…Their is ONLY ONE GOD that we as sinful men need to pray to. Praying to anything or anyone else is SIN. And fourth, again you know what I beleive, WOW! Let ME tell you what I beleive… I beleive that their is nothing wrong in asking someone to pray for you, but to ask another sinful man to forgive your sins, or for you to pray to a sinful man, throws out everything Jesus stands for. Last time I checked Jesus was the only one that walked on our plant without sin. Jesus died on the cross for all of our sins and Jesus is the only one worthy of my worship, not a pastor, budda, Benedict, John Paul, Mary, Peter, Bush, Obama, Mary Popings, Paul, ect, ect…
The Bible is SOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO CLEAR, yet men find ways to distort GOD’S simple and eternal truths. I’m pressing enter, knowing that now the cicle continues, you will twist my words again, you will tell me that NO God gave the church authority, You will again, tell me what I BELEIVE and THINK, and the cicle continues to go round and round… If you don’t care to pick up the Bible and ask God to enlighten you so that you understand his clear and simple mesages, to argue with you is a waste of my time. If you will not let the Holy Spirit tell you what is real and what is fake, what is the purpose of going back and fourth.
The Bible is SOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO CLEAR, yet men find ways to distort GOD’S simple and eternal truths. I’m pressing enter, knowing that now the cicle continues, you will twist my words again, you will tell me that NO God gave the church authority, You will again, tell me what I BELEIVE and THINK, and the cicle continues to go round and round… If you don’t care to pick up the Bible and ask God to enlighten you so that you understand his clear and simple mesages, to argue with you is a waste of my time. If you will not let the Holy Spirit tell you what is real and what is fake, what is the purpose of going back and fourth.
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