Catholic answers please; how do I know if I CAN pray to saints!?

[Dan_Parker]

The only difference between Catholic Bibles is the modern american english wording as compared to the old Latin or versions for international uses. The interpretations do not change, only the way worded for those from other countries with other languages. you were the one who switched from NAB. If I do refer to the Latin Vulgate or the Septuagint it is because all versions of Bible no matter what alterations have been made originate from that Vulgate.

Then in the future please provide exegesis with your quotes and prove your points otherwise I won’t know how to respond. If you don’t, I will read them but may not respond.

 

[Dan_Parker]

I’m not changing anything. I am perfectly willing to compare my references and there accuracy against the Latin Vulgate which is the first recognized compiled work of canonized texts called “the Holy Bible”. Are you ready to do that AND accept the Latin Vulgate in place of the changes your version of the Bible presents? what source do you think your Bible originated from?

The Latin Vulgate is a translation by Jerome from the Greek and Hebrew. It is not the original. It is a translation from a copy of a copy of a copy of the Hebrew and Greek manuscripts.

I am ready to discuss the Hebrew and Greek with you. Those are the original languages of the bible, not Latin.

 

[teachccd]

I’m talking Bible history and where we all got it from… mainly the NT. God first of course, but someone had to assemble these writings and discern which were authentic and which were not… Do you understand how the NT was canonized and who did it? These questions become very important when it comes down to deciding which interpretation to believe… The interpretation I adhere to has been around for 2000 years and is supported by the men who canonized the NT… I feel that is a foundation built on rock. SO to move on to “Scriptural matters” merely becomes a “let’s move on to my opinion matter”… when I here someone’s interpretation I like to know where the authority behind their interpretation comes from… and frankly I have to trust that which I follow before that of Mr. Russell.

SD

Hi Dan,

Seems like SD Catholic poses the same question ehre that you cannot answer in a similar thread. If you cannot tell us who settled the canon of Scripture then your rhetorical debates render meaningless…teachccd

 

[teachccd]

I didn’t make that argument because we also believe in Hell… and of course Purgatory, which is like the porch into God’s house. I think you’ve seen plenty to know where this idea comes from… that was your question right? You just keep discounting it by giving me a different verse with a jehovah witness interpretation attached to it. I realize that I could continue to sling verses with you to support my idea and you will continue to counter with hand picked veses to sling back that the jehovah’s witnesses have been using for years, I also understand that your mind set and grid for reading Scripture has been established by the watchtower. I’m not in the business of trying to change your mind (it’s not my job)… You asked where my belief comes from, and I told you… You understand those to mean something else, and I believe you do, but the roots of Christ’s Church tell me differently. Perhaps you would be interested in studying some Early Church writings on this subject and also on the history of the Bible. I feel the topic of an immortal soul is only a fraction of the differences we actually have in our beliefs… It would be virtually impossible to make you understand where I’m coming from with all of the other road blocks between my understanding and yours… you know putting the cart in front of the horse?

May God Bless you on your journey Dan

SD

It is 2 1/2 years with a Jehovah’s Witness that made me the Catholic that I am today. Dan and all JW’s attend meetings whereby they are trained to dialogue with people. That is there primary goal. Do not get me wrong. They have a fervent belief and many Catholics would do well to emulate their fervency. I have listened in on their meetings. It is very structured and they are not to think for themselves. They are told everything and everything comes from their headquarters in New York. They are not allowed to question their teachings under several penalties.

I have read much of their literature and talked with quite a few of them. Dan’s interest here is not what you have to say. It is purely to proselytize and to forward his mission.

God does work in mysterious ways, however. Perhaps coming here is the first step for Dan. You never know.

This was a sidebar and not meant to derail this thread. I posted this here instead of PMing you so that others may see this as well. Now…back to Scripture and Greek and Hebrew and Latin…teachccd

 

[twb1621]

The Latin Vulgate is a translation by Jerome from the Greek and Hebrew. It is not the original. It is a translation from a copy of a copy of a copy of the Hebrew and Greek manuscripts.

I am ready to discuss the Hebrew and Greek with you. Those are the original languages of the bible, not Latin.

You didn’t read what I said; "I am perfectly willing to compare my references and there accuracy against the Latin Vulgate which is the first recognized compiled work of canonized texts called “the Holy Bible”.

we can discuss Hebrew and Greek all day but I am not foolish enough to present myself as fully qualified to interpret ancient languages. Unless you are a scholar with masters degrees in ancient languages, writing form and ancient civilizations, equally as qualified to interpret as those who have served to do so in committees over the last 2000 years, I could not possibly take you seriously. there are multitudes of people who claim they can interpret scripture and almost ever one of them has their own Interpretations. No offense, but there is much more to interpretation of ancient language than simple translation of words. you questioned why I referred to the OT, I now remind you it is the NT that tells us we are to follow the teachings of the apostles through their Church as they were the witnesses to the teachings and life of Christ and His disciples pointing out individual interpretation is misguided and decieving.

As I said before, The Latin Vulgate is the first recognized compiled work of canonized texts translated from the Hebrew and Greek ancient languages into Latin of course. Its origin is the Septuagint and the later Vetus Itala but no other compilation consisted of the completed books until the Latin Vulgate.

I’m sure you are aware based on your comments that the Catholic Church gathered all the writings and determined what books were the inspired word of God and excluded those of questionable authorship or authenticity before the final canon. You probably know every Bible version used, even those that have been edited, contain chosen books which where written and selected under the guidance of the Holy Spirit through the Apostles and their successors. The same faithful who established the Christian Faith which became recognized as the Catholic Church by the time of the Vulgate.

Now you suggested, based on your beliefs, that the souls of the dead enter some kind of lifeless phase waiting for the resurrection of the Body with the soul at the second coming. what I asked of you was your explanation of the many scripture verses some of which I presented that express the souls of the holy after their mortal death, become saints in heaven often representing God as His messengers and interceding for those who pray for God’s help. Will you explain?

 

[teachccd]

You didn’t read what I said; "I am perfectly willing to compare my references and there accuracy against the Latin Vulgate which is the first recognized compiled work of canonized texts called “the Holy Bible”.

we can discuss Hebrew and Greek all day but I am not foolish enough to present myself as fully qualified to interpret ancient languages. Unless you are a scholar with masters degrees in ancient languages, writing form and ancient civilizations, equally as qualified to interpret as those who have served to do so in committees over the last 2000 years, I could not possibly take you seriously. there are multitudes of people who claim they can interpret scripture and almost ever one of them has their own Interpretations. No offense, but there is much more to interpretation of ancient language than simple translation of words. you questioned why I referred to the OT, I now remind you it is the NT that tells us we are to follow the teachings of the apostles through their Church as they were the witnesses to the teachings and life of Christ and His disciples pointing out individual interpretation is misguided and decieving.

As I said before, The Latin Vulgate is the first recognized compiled work of canonized texts translated from the Hebrew and Greek ancient languages into Latin of course. Its origin is the Septuagint and the later Vetus Itala but no other compilation consisted of the completed books until the Latin Vulgate.

I’m sure you are aware based on your comments that the Catholic Church gathered all the writings and determined what books were the inspired word of God and excluded those of questionable authorship or authenticity before the final canon. You probably know every Bible version used, even those that have been edited, contain chosen books which where written and selected under the guidance of the Holy Spirit through the Apostles and their successors. The same faithful who established the Christian Faith which became recognized as the Catholic Church by the time of the Vulgate.

Now you suggested, based on your beliefs, that the souls of the dead enter some kind of lifeless phase waiting for the resurrection of the Body with the soul at the second coming. what I asked of you was your explanation of the many scripture verses some of which I presented that express the souls of the holy after their mortal death, become saints in heaven often representing God as His messengers and interceding for those who pray for God’s help. Will you explain?

Did you read my post #124 above? Keep on trying, though. The Holy Spirit never quits working in all of us…teachccd

 

[Dan_Parker]

You didn’t read what I said; "I am perfectly willing to compare my references and there accuracy against the Latin Vulgate which is the first recognized compiled work of canonized texts called “the Holy Bible”.

we can discuss Hebrew and Greek all day but I am not foolish enough to present myself as fully qualified to interpret ancient languages. Unless you are a scholar with masters degrees in ancient languages, writing form and ancient civilizations, equally as qualified to interpret as those who have served to do so in committees over the last 2000 years, I could not possibly take you seriously. there are multitudes of people who claim they can interpret scripture and almost ever one of them has their own Interpretations. No offense, but there is much more to interpretation of ancient language than simple translation of words. you questioned why I referred to the OT, I now remind you it is the NT that tells us we are to follow the teachings of the apostles through their Church as they were the witnesses to the teachings and life of Christ and His disciples pointing out individual interpretation is misguided and decieving.

As I said before, The Latin Vulgate is the first recognized compiled work of canonized texts translated from the Hebrew and Greek ancient languages into Latin of course. Its origin is the Septuagint and the later Vetus Itala but no other compilation consisted of the completed books until the Latin Vulgate.

I’m sure you are aware based on your comments that the Catholic Church gathered all the writings and determined what books were the inspired word of God and excluded those of questionable authorship or authenticity before the final canon. You probably know every Bible version used, even those that have been edited, contain chosen books which where written and selected under the guidance of the Holy Spirit through the Apostles and their successors. The same faithful who established the Christian Faith which became recognized as the Catholic Church by the time of the Vulgate.

Now you suggested, based on your beliefs, that the souls of the dead enter some kind of lifeless phase waiting for the resurrection of the Body with the soul at the second coming. what I asked of you was your explanation of the many scripture verses some of which I presented that express the souls of the holy after their mortal death, become saints in heaven often representing God as His messengers and interceding for those who pray for God’s help. Will you explain?

Dan:
I have addressed every serious attempt to exegete the actual biblical text that I have seen on this board to date. You don’t mention any verses. If you quote them and exegete your view I will respond. I won’t attempt to second guess you or attempt to refute a position you have not made. These are your proof texts and the burden proof lies squarely on you. That being said, you don’t even mention any specific texts in your post. I have made so many posts on this subject lately and in great detail, that it would surprise me if I have not already answered those you have in mind, perhaps to someone else’s post.

I suggest you search on my posts and read what I have read and make a reply to one of those.

 

[twb1621]

It is 2 1/2 years with a Jehovah’s Witness that made me the Catholic that I am today. Dan and all JW’s attend meetings whereby they are trained to dialogue with people. That is there primary goal. Do not get me wrong. They have a fervent belief and many Catholics would do well to emulate their fervency. I have listened in on their meetings. It is very structured and they are not to think for themselves. They are told everything and everything comes from their headquarters in New York. They are not allowed to question their teachings under several penalties.

I have read much of their literature and talked with quite a few of them. Dan’s interest here is not what you have to say. It is purely to proselytize and to forward his mission.

God does work in mysterious ways, however. Perhaps coming here is the first step for Dan. You never know.

This was a sidebar and not meant to derail this thread. I posted this here instead of PMing you so that others may see this as well. Now…back to Scripture and Greek and Hebrew and Latin…teachccd

Hey Teach, I understand completely and appreciate your (name removed by moderator)ut. The tactic of avoiding offering any credible response to the numerous posts I presented with verses from scripture that are evident against their beliefs is obvious. I have come to know others of the “fellowship”, some personally who were JW until they saw all the inconsistencies and contradictions in what they were taught compared to the fullness of scriptures. The ethical structure of their faith is actually in direct defiance of the teachings of Christ. It is ours to strive for righteousness in our lives through humility and charity and love of each other in Christ (Edited).

 

[twb1621]

Dan:
I have addressed every serious attempt to exegete the actual biblical text that I have seen on this board to date. You don’t mention any verses.

Dan, You either are not reading all the posts I offered scriptural verse in or you are not recognizing them but you certainly have not responded to any of them and I am not going to repost them all again.

If you quote them and exegete your view I will respond. I won’t attempt to second guess you or attempt to refute a position you have not made. These are your proof texts and the burden proof lies squarely on you.

This isn’t a court of law Dan, and what I presented to you I asked only for your interpretation of as they contradicted your beliefs and statments.

That being said, you don’t even mention any specific texts in your post. I have made so many posts on this subject lately and in great detail, that it would surprise me if I have not already answered those you have in mind, perhaps to someone else’s post.

Again, refer to above response. There have been many.

I suggest you search on my posts and read what I have read and make a reply to one of those.

Dan, I really do not mean to seem offensive, but you practice the routine “bob-n-weave” as most in your belief system. If you were open to wanting to learn the truth you may be able to see it and choose by it. you haven’t even answered my question as to who you believe established your belief system when you denied Russell as you founder. Yet you say you responded to all of them. I am just looking for honest discussion in regard to our (yours and ours) beliefs during your presence here.

 

[Dan_Parker]

Dan, I really do not mean to seem offensive, but you practice the routine “bob-n-weave” as most in your belief system. If you were open to wanting to learn the truth you may be able to see it and choose by it. you haven’t even answered my question as to who you believe established your belief system when you denied Russell as you founder. Yet you say you responded to all of them. I am just looking for honest discussion in regard to our (yours and ours) beliefs during your presence here.

That particular subject does not really fit the Sacred Scripture forum and so I won’t discuss it here, but I have answered it already and here is the link.

 

[Tomster]

Hey Teach, I understand completely and appreciate your (name removed by moderator)ut. The tactic of avoiding offering any credible response to the numerous posts I presented with verses from scripture that are evident against their beliefs is obvious. I have come to know others of the “fellowship”, some personally who were JW until they saw all the inconsistencies and contradictions in what they were taught compared to the fullness of scriptures. The ethical structure of their faith is actually in direct defiance of the teachings of Christ. It is ours to strive for righteousness in our lives through humility and charity and love of each other in Christ but not to claim self-righteousness or pass judgment and condemnation on others, yet they are not open to see their own contradictions to these teachings.

And, if I may add, the inconsistencies and contradictions of the JW’s are legion. All one has to do is to sort through their own publications from the last 150 years to prove this. They have “flip-flopped” many times on their own beliefs.

 

[twb1621]

That particular subject does not really fit the Sacred Scripture forum and so I won’t discuss it here, but I have answered it already and here is the link.

You sure have a lot of guide lines for not answering posts. All the posts I included sacred scripture in do refer to scripture but you wont respond to those verses either. How about you raise a Biblical issue and we will start on that…

 

[Dan_Parker]

You sure have a lot of guide lines for not answering posts. All the posts I included sacred scripture in do refer to scripture but you wont respond to those verses either. How about you raise a Biblical issue and we will start on that…

I have answered that question in the link. I don’t want to repeat myself. As for Biblical issues, there are a number of them already in progress. One that has not been addressed seriously by Catholics is found in my link on monotheism. Why not start there?

 

[twb1621]

I have answered that question in the link. I don’t want to repeat myself. As for Biblical issues, there are a number of them already in progress. One that has not been addressed seriously by Catholics is found in my link on monotheism. Why not start there?

So what you are saying is you will not answer anything uncomfortable for you, scripturally or otherwise or that you can’t defend you faith from so everyone has to deal only with what you choose? I believe you are mistaking what religious forum you have entered.

 

[Dan_Parker]

So what you are saying is you will not answer anything uncomfortable for you, scripturally or otherwise or that you can’t defend you faith from so everyone has to deal only with what you choose? I believe you are mistaking what religious forum you have entered.

Dan:
You answer is in this link and has been for about three posts as you continue to complain I won’t answer the question, which is in the link.

I went through this with PFMerger just a week or so ago. He verified the information is true. Why not talk to him and save yourself the trouble.

 

[twb1621]

Dan:
You answer is in this link and has been for about three posts as you continue to complain I won’t answer the question, which is in the link.

I went through this with PFMerger just a week or so ago. He verified the information is true. Why not talk to him and save yourself the trouble.

You respond to what you THINK is asked of you instead of what is asked. you don’t see it yet Dan, but those interpretations you follow as a belief as the JW are contradicted throughout scripture which means your beliefs are distorted. Scripture does not contradict itself. You will see that someday if you keep your eyes and heart open.

 

[ern42]

Here are six sublime promises that the Bible gives us about the righteousness offered to us through Jesus?

A. He will cover our past sins and count us as guiltless (Isaiah 44:22; John 1:9).
B. We were created in God’s image in the beginning (Genesis 1:26, 27). Jesus promises to restore us to God’s image (Romans 8:29).
C. Jesus gives us the desire to live right and then grants us His power to actually accomplish it (Philippians 2:13).
D. Jesus, by His miracles, will cause us to happily do only the things that please God (Hebrews 13:20, 21; John 15:11).
E. He removes the death sentence from us by crediting us for His sinless life and atoning death (2 Corinthians 5:21).
F. Jesus assumes responsibility for keeping us faithful until He returns to take us to heaven (Philippians 1:6; Jude 1:24).

All we have to do is pray to HIM and HIM ALONE. Not any man, or “saint” or anything. Just Jesus. He’s the one that died at calvery, not your priest or your pastor!

 

[twb1621]

Here are six sublime promises that the Bible gives us about the righteousness offered to us through Jesus?

A. He will cover our past sins and count us as guiltless (Isaiah 44:22; John 1:9).
B. We were created in God’s image in the beginning (Genesis 1:26, 27). Jesus promises to restore us to God’s image (Romans 8:29).
C. Jesus gives us the desire to live right and then grants us His power to actually accomplish it (Philippians 2:13).
D. Jesus, by His miracles, will cause us to happily do only the things that please God (Hebrews 13:20, 21; John 15:11).
E. He removes the death sentence from us by crediting us for His sinless life and atoning death (2 Corinthians 5:21).
F. Jesus assumes responsibility for keeping us faithful until He returns to take us to heaven (Philippians 1:6; Jude 1:24).

All we have to do is pray to HIM and HIM ALONE. Not any man, or “saint” or anything. Just Jesus. He’s the one that died at calvery, not your priest or your pastor!

These verses you presented do not discredit praying to saints for their prayers. So you believe He wasted His time establishing the Church or giving His authority to Forgive and retain or bind and loose. And you believe the Old Testament represents misguided words. And you believe asking anyone at all to pray for you is objectionable to God? Refer to posts 78, 79, 80

 

[twb1621]

Here are six sublime promises that the Bible gives us about the righteousness offered to us through Jesus?

A. He will cover our past sins and count us as guiltless (Isaiah 44:22; John 1:9).
B. We were created in God’s image in the beginning (Genesis 1:26, 27). Jesus promises to restore us to God’s image (Romans 8:29).
C. Jesus gives us the desire to live right and then grants us His power to actually accomplish it (Philippians 2:13).
D. Jesus, by His miracles, will cause us to happily do only the things that please God (Hebrews 13:20, 21; John 15:11).
E. He removes the death sentence from us by crediting us for His sinless life and atoning death (2 Corinthians 5:21).
F. Jesus assumes responsibility for keeping us faithful until He returns to take us to heaven (Philippians 1:6; Jude 1:24).

All we have to do is pray to HIM and HIM ALONE. Not any man, or “saint” or anything. Just Jesus. He’s the one that died at calvery, not your priest or your pastor!

A few examples of your references;

In reference to Isaiah 44:22, are you saying Israel didn’t turn against God in scripture after this pardon?

*John 1:*7 He came for testimony, 6 to testify to the light, so that all might believe through him. 8 He was not the light, but came to testify to the light. 9 The true light, which enlightens everyone, was coming into the world. 10 He was in the world, and the world came to be through him, but the world did not know him. 11 He came to what was his own, but his own people 7 did not accept him.

Perhaps you’re referring to another verse.

In reference to Genesis 1:26, 27again, has nothing to do with your statement.

In reference to Romans 8:29 again, how does this serve as an objection to the subject?

In reference to Philippians 2:13: - 12 10 11 So then, my beloved, obedient as you have always been, not only when I am present but all the more now when I am absent, work out your salvation with fear and trembling. 12 13 For God is the one who, for his good purpose, works in you both to desire and to work.

He doesan’t “grant you His power” He works through you if you follow His teachings. If He granted you His power you wouldn’t have to work anything out.

Nothing you have presented is objecting to asking the holy for their prayers.

 

[Dan_Parker]

You respond to what you THINK is asked of you instead of what is asked. you don’t see it yet Dan, but those interpretations you follow as a belief as the JW are contradicted throughout scripture which means your beliefs are distorted. Scripture does not contradict itself. You will see that someday if you keep your eyes and heart open.

**
Dan:**
It looks like this discussion has reached its natural conclusion. It takes two to communicate and it seems that you don’t want to interact with my information, so our discussions are concluded. If I see you post something of substance, and that challenges me, I may decide to renew our dialogue. I have plenty of responses from others on this board which do include substantive information regarding Sacred Scripture and I will concentrate on those kinds of posters and posts.

Best Regards,
Dan