Catholic answers please; how do I know if I CAN pray to saints!?

[sdtouchton]

Here is answer for all your questions

sdtouchton.webs.com/apps/blog/entries/search?query=saved

 

[SD_Catholic]

The Bible is SOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO CLEAR, yet men find ways to distort GOD’S simple and eternal truths. .

OK… if I were to believe this statement. Then it should be easy for you to point me in the direction of that one great “Bible” church. There should be only 1 right??? If it is sooooooo clear then there should be no misunderstandings on what it is saying, so there would be one giant “Bible” church that teaches something that everyone agrees on. But what I see are thousands of so called “Bible” churches that teach many different things. How if the Bible is soooooo clear can there be so many people with so many different interpretations that say they all get their teachings from the same Bible??? But I would imagine that you were one of the lucky ones who landed in the correct one that teaches the truth, but since all of them would claim that same thing, how can I be sure that your’s is the right one? You might say test those teachings against Scripture, but I say I do, and they would say they do, and yet still they continue to split over different interpretations… why? Don’t they all claim to be good Christians using the Bible as their sole rule of faith… most aren’t deliberately trying to decieve people, so what makes your or your pastors interpretation any more authoritative then the next good Bible believing Christian’s? These are just honest questions that every Christian should ask themselves.

I see you have many issues (mostly misunderstandings) with the Catholic Church, but perhaps answering this one will start you in the right direction of understanding.

SD

 

[SD_Catholic]

Jesus died on the cross for all of our sins and Jesus is the only one worthy of my worship, not a pastor, budda, Benedict, John Paul, Mary, Peter, Bush, Obama, Mary Popings, Paul, ect, ect…

.

Amen to that!!! I doubt you’ll find a Catholic to disagree with that statement.

SD

 

[twb1621]

I would sooner start a thread on the Easter Bunny Or Santa Claus. Or the Tooth Fairy

Well, they rank more suitable than any distorted and minipulated word of God you have presented here. If what I say is wrong, please provide credible support for your rebuttal.

 

[Tomster]

Because even though you won’t acknowledge it, it refutes you. If the dead are judged within one second after they die, they of what good are prayers to the Saints on behalf of them? They cannot change God’s judgment, can they?

Dan,

Your lack of knowledge of the Scriptures is amazing. It is written that some sins are deadly, i.e., denial of the Holy Spirit, and some sins are not deadly. Since some sins are not deadly, but nothing unclean shall enter heaven, Purgatory is where you go until the soul is cleansed. Pretty simple. It all has to do with the doctrine of the Communion of Saints which has been explained to you already. I guess you either glossed over it or you just couldn’t see it.

You have refuted nothing BTW.

 

[Tomster]

The entire Bible discredits the worship of saints. The catholic church re-wrote the 2nd commandment to suite itself. Their is ONLY ONE true Saint and Lord we should pray to and that is God! The other “saints” were mere humans just like me or you, full of sin and heartship. Jesus Christ was and is the only saint! He never sinned!!! Second, he NEVER established the catholic church! The catholic church has given itself that authority. Jesus used every second on earth wisely, he never wasted his time! The reason he came was to provide salvation and love to a lost world, not to create seperation, and give men his authority. Everything we do, we should do it IN THE NAME OF JESUS for his glory not the church! How divine do you think you are, to know what I beleive concerning the OT. The OT & the NT both are very clear…Their is ONLY ONE GOD that we as sinful men need to pray to. Praying to anything or anyone else is SIN. And fourth, again you know what I beleive, WOW! Let ME tell you what I beleive… I beleive that their is nothing wrong in asking someone to pray for you, but to ask another sinful man to forgive your sins, or for you to pray to a sinful man, throws out everything Jesus stands for. Last time I checked Jesus was the only one that walked on our plant without sin. Jesus died on the cross for all of our sins and Jesus is the only one worthy of my worship, not a pastor, budda, Benedict, John Paul, Mary, Peter, Bush, Obama, Mary Popings, Paul, ect, ect…

The Bible is SOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO CLEAR, yet men find ways to distort GOD’S simple and eternal truths. I’m pressing enter, knowing that now the cicle continues, you will twist my words again, you will tell me that NO God gave the church authority, You will again, tell me what I BELEIVE and THINK, and the cicle continues to go round and round… If you don’t care to pick up the Bible and ask God to enlighten you so that you understand his clear and simple mesages, to argue with you is a waste of my time. If you will not let the Holy Spirit tell you what is real and what is fake, what is the purpose of going back and fourth.

ARE THERE ANY CATHOLICS OUT THERE WHO WORSHIP SAINTS? LET’S GET A HAND COUNT RIGHT RIGHT NOW! kpeople:

 

[Dan_Parker]

Dan,

Your lack of knowledge of the Scriptures is amazing. It is written that some sins are deadly, i.e., denial of the Holy Spirit, and some sins are not deadly. Since some sins are not deadly, but nothing unclean shall enter heaven, Purgatory is where you go until the soul is cleansed. Pretty simple. It all has to do with the doctrine of the Communion of Saints which has been explained to you already. I guess you either glossed over it or you just couldn’t see it.

You have refuted nothing BTW.

IC… thanks for that explanation. I hold a similar view regarding the unforgivable sin, that the only ones who are destroyed are the ones who commit the sin against the holy spirit.

You put your dead into purgatory and ours are resurrected on earth during the Millennium and will then be guided to life.

One thing that I find contradictory in your theology is that Paul teaches in 1Co 15 that the ones who are resurrected to heaven all have certain characteristics, such as incorruptible (42), glory and power (42), spiritual (44), of heaven (47) and immortal (53). Do you teach that those in Purgatory have all those qualities?

On the other hand, those who are on earth (you say in heaven) have not yet been led to life and have not yet had the tears wiped from their eyes.
DBY Revelation 7:17 because the Lamb which is in the midst of the throne shall shepherd them, and shall lead them to fountains of waters of life, and God shall wipe away every tear from their eyes.

The description of these ones in Rev 7:17 does not match Paul’s description of those who already are raised immortal.

 

[twb1621]

twb1621
Think of how you would justify the existence of prophets and saints in heaven when we know they died mortally at one point but exist as eternally living souls just as the angels, as attested to in scripture? You must consider the soul does not die

Dan:
I could consider that the soul does not die briefly until I read in both the OT and NT that it does die.
· DRA Ezekiel 18:4 Behold all souls are mine: as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, the same shall die.

Why did you switch Bible versions?

NAB Ezekiel 18; 4 For all lives are mine; the life of the father is like the life of the son, both are mine; only the one who sins shall die.
***Latin Vulgate ******Ezekiel 18;***4 Behold all souls are mine: as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, the same shall die. 5 And if a man be just, and do judgment and justice, 6 And hath not eaten upon the mountains, nor lifted up his eyes to the idols of the house of Israel: and hath not defiled his neighbour’s wife, nor come near to a menstruous woman: 7 And hath not wronged any man: but hath restored the pledge to the debtor, hath taken nothing away by violence: hath given his bread to the hungry, and hath covered the naked with a garment: 8 Hath not lent upon usury, nor taken any increase: hath withdrawn his hand from iniquity, and hath executed true judgment between man and man: 9 Hath walked in my commandments, and kept my judgments, to do truth: ***he is just, he shall surely live, saith the Lord God. ***

All sinful die. That has nothing in opposition to the holy or faithful going to heaven with the Father.

continued next post…

 

[twb1621]

First lets state a fact that scripture DOES NOT contradict itself in any way. So every verse regardless of whether I or you present it, must coincide with each other. Now, in this regard, it doesn’t matter where in scripture any verse appears, it will not conflict. It cannot. It is the word of God. So as long as we realize this, we have a place to begin and a foundation to build on.

Now I suggest you take the verses I presented you previously and those you presented to others that I offered responses to start with. Reconsider those and I will add my response to the above for your consideration also.

twb162
I realize JW believe the dead are dead until the resurrection with the body, but the JW do not take into account the OT scripture that it conflicts with and there is a great deal.

Dan:
At the end of the bible we are given more detail that at the beginning, don’t you agree?

I also realize the JW centers on Revelations, but where a verse falls is only determined by the placement of that book in the Bible and that was determined by the Catholic Church at the time the books were selected based on their authenticity among other things. Where a verse is does not affect its authority as the inspired word of God.
NJB Revelation 20:5 The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were over; this is the first resurrection.
What OT scripture denies that the resurrection is what causes the dead one to live again?

The soul is not dead but rejoined with the body. The body certainly is dead. But What OT scripture claims that the soul ever dies and comes back to its life at any time other than those condemned? The resurrection is what causes the dead one to live again?

Revelation 20; 1 1 Then I saw an angel come down from heaven, holding in his hand the key to the abyss 2 and a heavy chain. 2 He seized the dragon, the ancient serpent, which is the Devil or Satan, 3 and tied it up for a thousand years 3 and threw it into the abyss, which he locked over it and sealed, so that it could no longer lead the nations astray until the thousand years are completed. After this, it is to be released for a short time. 4 Then I saw thrones; those who sat on them were entrusted with judgment. I also saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their witness to Jesus and for the word of God, and who had not worshiped the beast or its image nor had accepted its mark 4 on their foreheads (the mark on their foreheads being a corrupt or sinful mind). They came to life and they reigned with Christ for a thousand years. 5 The rest of the dead (those sinful kept away as with the beast) did not come to life until the thousand years were over. This is the first resurrection. 6 Blessed 5 and holy is the one who shares in the first resurrection. The second death has no power over these; they will be priests of God and of Christ, and they will reign with him for (the) thousand years.
This is not in conflict at all with any of the previously presented verses showing the living souls of the holy in heaven. Again, the soul rejoins the body when the body returns at the resurrection.

 

[twb1621]

continued from previous post.

DRA Numbers 23:10 Who can count the dust of Jacob, and know the number of the stock of Israel? Let my soul die the death of the just, and my last end be like to them.
Numbers 23: 8 How can I curse whom God has not cursed? How denounce whom the LORD has not denounced? 9 2 For from the top of the crags I see him, from the heights I behold him. Here is a people that lives apart and does not reckon itself among the nations. 10 3 Who has ever counted the dust of Jacob, or numbered Israel’s wind-borne particles? May I die the death of the just, may my descendants be as many as theirs! 11 “What have you done to me?” cried Balak to Balaam. “It was to curse my foes that I brought you here; instead, you have even blessed them.”
Israel, as the chosen people of God, occupied a unique place among the nations, from which they kept themselves aloof. “The dust of Jacob” or “Israel’s wind-borne particles” means the Israelites will be as numerous as dust in a desert sandstorm. “May I die the death of the just, may my descendants be as many as theirs!" A idea by which Balaam swears he is speaking the truth; he sees the reward of virtue in having numerous descendants.
But it Does not pertain to what we are referring to.

DRA Revelation 16:3 And the second angel poured out his vial upon the sea. And there came blood as it were of a dead man: and every living soul died in the sea.
1-21] These seven bowls, like the seven seals (⇒ Rev 6:1-17; ⇒ 8:1) and the seven trumpets (⇒ Rev 8:2-⇒ 9:21; ⇒ 11:15-19), bring on a succession of disasters modeled in part on the plagues of Egypt (Exodus 7-12). See the note on ⇒ Rev 6:12-14.
[2] Like the sixth Egyptian plague (⇒ Exodus 9:8-11).
[3-4] Like the first Egyptian plague (⇒ Exodus 7:20-21). The same woe followed the blowing of the second trumpet (⇒ Rev 8:8-9).

NAB CH16; 3 3 The second angel poured out his bowl on the sea. The sea turned to blood like that from a corpse; every creature living in the sea died.
Latin vulgate CH 16; 3 And the second angel poured out his vial upon the sea, and there came blood as it were of a dead man; ***and every living soul died in the sea. ***
What lives in the sea? Not man, but sea creatures. Now we know they do not have souls so that tells us it is figurative and referring to “every single Creature”.

 

[twb1621]

First lets state a fact that scripture DOES NOT contradict itself in any way. So every verse regardless of whether I or you present it, must coincide with each other. Now, in this regard, it doesn’t matter where in scripture any verse appears, it will not conflict. It cannot. It is the word of God. So as long as we realize this, we have a place to begin and a foundation to build on.

Now I suggest you take the verses I presented you previously and those you presented to others that I offered responses to start with. Reconsider those and I will add my response to the above for your consideration also.

twb162
I realize JW believe the dead are dead until the resurrection with the body, but the JW do not take into account the OT scripture that it conflicts with and there is a great deal.

Dan:
At the end of the bible we are given more detail that at the beginning, don’t you agree?

I also realize the JW centers on Revelations, but where a verse falls is only determined by the placement of that book in the Bible and that was determined by the Catholic Church at the time the books were selected based on their authenticity among other things. Where a verse is does not affect its authority as the inspired word of God.
NJB Revelation 20:5 The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were over; this is the first resurrection.
What OT scripture denies that the resurrection is what causes the dead one to live again?

The soul is not dead but rejoined with the body. The body certainly is dead. But What OT scripture claims that the soul ever dies and comes back to its life at any time other than those condemned? The resurrection is what causes the dead one to live again?

Revelation 20; 1 1 Then I saw an angel come down from heaven, holding in his hand the key to the abyss 2 and a heavy chain. 2 He seized the dragon, the ancient serpent, which is the Devil or Satan, 3 and tied it up for a thousand years 3 and threw it into the abyss, which he locked over it and sealed, so that it could no longer lead the nations astray until the thousand years are completed. After this, it is to be released for a short time. 4 Then I saw thrones; those who sat on them were entrusted with judgment. I also saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their witness to Jesus and for the word of God, and who had not worshiped the beast or its image nor had accepted its mark 4 on their foreheads (the mark on their foreheads being a corrupt or sinful mind). They came to life and they reigned with Christ for a thousand years. 5 The rest of the dead (those sinful kept away as with the beast) did not come to life until the thousand years were over. This is the first resurrection. 6 Blessed 5 and holy is the one who shares in the first resurrection. The second death has no power over these; they will be priests of God and of Christ, and they will reign with him for (the) thousand years.
This is not in conflict at all with any of the previously presented verses showing the living souls of the holy in heaven. Again, the soul rejoins the body when the body returns at the resurrection.

continued next post.

 

[twb1621]

continued from previous post…

twb1621
Think of how you would justify the existence of prophets and saints in heaven when we know they died mortally at one point but exist as eternally living souls just as the angels, as attested to in scripture? You must consider the soul does not die

Dan:
I could consider that the soul does not die briefly until I read in both the OT and NT that it does die.
· DRA Ezekiel 18:4 Behold all souls are mine: as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, the same shall die.

Why did you switch Bible versions?

NAB Ezekiel 18; 4 For all lives are mine; the life of the father is like the life of the son, both are mine; only the one who sins shall die.
***Latin Vulgate ******Ezekiel 18;***4 Behold all souls are mine: as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, the same shall die. 5 And if a man be just, and do judgment and justice, 6 And hath not eaten upon the mountains, nor lifted up his eyes to the idols of the house of Israel: and hath not defiled his neighbour’s wife, nor come near to a menstruous woman: 7 And hath not wronged any man: but hath restored the pledge to the debtor, hath taken nothing away by violence: hath given his bread to the hungry, and hath covered the naked with a garment: 8 Hath not lent upon usury, nor taken any increase: hath withdrawn his hand from iniquity, and hath executed true judgment between man and man: 9 Hath walked in my commandments, and kept my judgments, to do truth: ***he is just, he shall surely live, saith the Lord God. ***

All sinful die. That has nothing in opposition to the holy or faithful going to heaven with the Father.

continued next post…

 

[twb1621]

continued from previous post.

DRA Numbers 23:10 Who can count the dust of Jacob, and know the number of the stock of Israel? Let my soul die the death of the just, and my last end be like to them.
Numbers 23: 8 How can I curse whom God has not cursed? How denounce whom the LORD has not denounced? 9 2 For from the top of the crags I see him, from the heights I behold him. Here is a people that lives apart and does not reckon itself among the nations. 10 3 Who has ever counted the dust of Jacob, or numbered Israel’s wind-borne particles? May I die the death of the just, may my descendants be as many as theirs! 11 “What have you done to me?” cried Balak to Balaam. “It was to curse my foes that I brought you here; instead, you have even blessed them.”
Israel, as the chosen people of God, occupied a unique place among the nations, from which they kept themselves aloof. “The dust of Jacob” or “Israel’s wind-borne particles” means the Israelites will be as numerous as dust in a desert sandstorm. “May I die the death of the just, may my descendants be as many as theirs!" A idea by which Balaam swears he is speaking the truth; he sees the reward of virtue in having numerous descendants.
But it Does not pertain to what we are referring to.

DRA Revelation 16:3 And the second angel poured out his vial upon the sea. And there came blood as it were of a dead man: and every living soul died in the sea.
1-21] These seven bowls, like the seven seals (⇒ Rev 6:1-17; ⇒ 8:1) and the seven trumpets (⇒ Rev 8:2-⇒ 9:21; ⇒ 11:15-19), bring on a succession of disasters modeled in part on the plagues of Egypt (Exodus 7-12). See the note on ⇒ Rev 6:12-14.
[2] Like the sixth Egyptian plague (⇒ Exodus 9:8-11).
[3-4] Like the first Egyptian plague (⇒ Exodus 7:20-21). The same woe followed the blowing of the second trumpet (⇒ Rev 8:8-9).

NAB CH16; 3 3 The second angel poured out his bowl on the sea. The sea turned to blood like that from a corpse; every creature living in the sea died.
Latin vulgate CH 16; 3 And the second angel poured out his vial upon the sea, and there came blood as it were of a dead man; ***and every living soul died in the sea. ***
What lives in the sea? Not man, but sea creatures. Now we know they do not have souls so that tells us it is figurative and referring to “every single Creature”.

 

[ern42]

The Bible says there is but one body, or church, into which Jesus calls His end-time people - the bride of Christ. To some, this is unnerving, as there are thousands of different churches today that call themselves Christian. Virtually every one claims to be God’s church, yet they each differ widely in biblical interpretation, faith, and practice. It’s quite impossible for the honest seeker of truth to investigate the claims of each one. However, we can be thankful that Jesus has solved this dilemma for us by describing His church in such detail that you can easily identify it! That description, vivid and powerful, is found in Revelation 12 and 14, and it will thrill you with truths that will help you in the end times. Please read Revelation 12:1-17 before commenting…

In Revelation 12:17, what additional two-point description did Jesus give of His end-time remnant church?

Answer: It would keep all the Ten Commandments, including the seventh-day Sabbath of the fourth commandment (John 14:15; Revelation 22:14). It also would have the “testimony of Jesus”, which the Bible tells us is the spirit of prophecy (Revelation 19:10).

God’s remnant church **will keep His commandments **and will also have the gift of prophecy.
So here are Jesus’ next two points of identification for His end-time remnant church:

1. It will keep God’s commandments, including His seventh-day Sabbath of the fourth commandment.
2. It will have the gift of prophecy.

While hosts of sincere Christian people are found in churches that do not keep the Sabbath or have the gift of prophecy, none of these churches can be God’s remnant end-time church into which Jesus is calling all last-day Christians, because God’s end-time church will both keep God’s commandments and have the gift of prophecy. The interpretation is pretty clear don’t you think!

 

[ern42]

Amen to that!!! I doubt you’ll find a Catholic to disagree with that statement.

SD

If catholics agree so much with that statement, throw away all the “saints and idols” that adorn their churches. Stop praying to men and confess your sins to Christ and Christ alone. If catholics agree that Jesus died for them, start keeping all 10 of his commandments not 9 not 8, but all 10.
“The wages of sin is death.” Romans 6:23. “He shall destroy the sinners.” Isaiah 13:9. “Whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.” James 2:10. Also… Jesus said…“Think not that I am come to destroy the law. … I am not come to destroy, but to fulfill. … Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.” Matthew 5:17, 18. I wonder what law he was talking about?
Teach accourding to scripture not man “made doctrines”.

 

[SD_Catholic]

The Bible says there is but one body, or church, into which Jesus calls His end-time people - the bride of Christ. To some, this is unnerving, as there are thousands of different churches today that call themselves Christian. Virtually every one claims to be God’s church, yet they each differ widely in biblical interpretation, faith, and practice. It’s quite impossible for the honest seeker of truth to investigate the claims of each one. However, we can be thankful that Jesus has solved this dilemma for us by describing His church in such detail that you can easily identify it! That description, vivid and powerful, is found in Revelation 12 and 14, and it will thrill you with truths that will help you in the end times. Please read Revelation 12:1-17 before commenting…

In Revelation 12:17, what additional two-point description did Jesus give of His end-time remnant church?

Answer: It would keep all the Ten Commandments, including the seventh-day Sabbath of the fourth commandment (John 14:15; Revelation 22:14). It also would have the “testimony of Jesus”, which the Bible tells us is the spirit of prophecy (Revelation 19:10).

God’s remnant church **will keep His commandments **and will also have the gift of prophecy.
So here are Jesus’ next two points of identification for His end-time remnant church:

1. It will keep God’s commandments, including His seventh-day Sabbath of the fourth commandment.
2. It will have the gift of prophecy.

While hosts of sincere Christian people are found in churches that do not keep the Sabbath or have the gift of prophecy, none of these churches can be God’s remnant end-time church into which Jesus is calling all last-day Christians, because God’s end-time church will both keep God’s commandments and have the gift of prophecy. The interpretation is pretty clear don’t you think!

So the seven day adventists is the one true church??? I now understand your misunderstandings much more clearly (the SDA don’t care much for the CC, but it’s obvious you knew that already). How sad that the Holy Spirit failed for 1800 years to preserve the one holy church… Why would he do that when he promised it would prevail? I don’t think it would be part of God’s plan to keep his true church a big secret for 1800 years before finally revealing it to Mrs. White… does that sound like God to you?

On the Sabbath thing (sorry I’m going to copy/paste since I have a meeting shortly)… taken from the catholic news agency…

*It is ironic that Jesus and His disciples were harassed by the Pharisees over the Sabbath (John 5:18). Jesus spoke out against the Pharisee’s merciless observance of the Sabbath (Matt 12:1-8; Luke 13:10-16). Jesus also defended Himself and His disciples on this issue by saying:

“The Sabbath was made for man, not man for the Sabbath; so the Son of man is Lord even of the Sabbath.” [Mark 2:27-28; RSV].*…

…First, the Resurrection of Christ occurred on Easter Sunday (John 20:1ff). Secondly, the Holy Spirit descended upon the Church on Pentecost Sunday (Acts 2:1ff). Also after His Resurrection, Jesus appeared to the Apostles twice, each on Sunday (John 20:19 & 26). As a result, Sunday became known as the Lord’s Day for Christians.

…On the first day of the week, when we were gathered together to break bread, Paul talked with them… [Acts 20:7]

…It is interesting to note that St. Paul had spent a week with the community in Troas (Acts 20:6), and this is the only reported time that he celebrated the “breaking of bread” with them. Also no remarks are made later in this passage that St. Paul disapproved of their worship on Sunday. One would expect St. Paul to object to this practice…

…*Elsewhere St. Paul told the Corinthians to contribute money to the Church each Sunday (1 Cor 16:1-2). This would be a strange request, if Christians assembled on Saturdays. Hebrews 4:8 speaks of “another day” because the former Sabbath was not obeyed. If Saturday were truly “craved in stone”, then it would be strange to speak of another day. According to Rev. 1:10, St. John “was in the Spirit on the Lord’s day.” *…

SD

 

[SD_Catholic]

If catholics agree so much with that statement, throw away all the “saints and idols” that adorn their churches. Stop praying to men and confess your sins to Christ and Christ alone. If catholics agree that Jesus died for them, start keeping all 10 of his commandments not 9 not 8, but all 10.
“The wages of sin is death.” Romans 6:23. “He shall destroy the sinners.” Isaiah 13:9. “Whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.” James 2:10. Also… Jesus said…“Think not that I am come to destroy the law. … I am not come to destroy, but to fulfill. … Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.” Matthew 5:17, 18. I wonder what law he was talking about?
Teach accourding to scripture not man “made doctrines”.

Why would we throw out statues and pictures of saints when we don’t worship them? They are there to remind us of people who were faithful to God and showed Christians how to live lives of virtue… Do you have any pictures of past family members hanging in your house? You need to study Catholic teachings from Catholic sources and stop listening to people who hate the Church… atleast if you’re going to bash it, bash it for things it really teaches rather than for things someone falsely tells you it teaches.

I have no idea what your 2nd paragraph was all about… just go do your own good historical research on how the early Church observed it’s Holy Day… and always be aware of your sources of information… never give up searching for all truth, even when you think you’ve found it… gotta go

SD

 

[SFH]

You mean the term is not accurate? They have not yet been resurrected, have they? What bible writer teaches that when one is resurrected they don’t have a body? The entirety of 1Co 15 refutes that notion.

Paul claims that without the resurrection he describes in 1Co 15, those who have died are “utterly lost.”
NJB 1 Corinthians 15:17 and if Christ has not been raised, your faith is pointless and you have not, after all, been released from your sins. 18 In addition, those who have fallen asleep in Christ are** utterly lost**.
When will they be brought to life?
NJB 1 Corinthians 15:22 Just as all die in Adam, so in Christ all will be brought to life; 23 but all of them in their proper order: Christ the first-fruits, and next, at his coming, those who belong to him.
Anyone who teaches otherwise has gone astray from the truth.
NJB 2 Timothy 2:18 the men who have gone astray from the truth, claiming that the resurrection has already taken place. They are upsetting some people’s faith
Do you maintain that Paul was wrong to write this to Timothy, years after Jesus had been resurrected?

ON THE CONTRARY, Jesus Christ, Our Lord and Savior, in refuting the Sadducees who deny that there is a resurrection refers to Moses and the burning bush. The LORD God said “I am the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob.” He is not the God of the dead, but of the living.

You err when you refer to the Holy Saints as “dead saints” – they are all alive in Christ.

The practice of praying to the Holy Saints dates back to the early Church. See, for example, the writings of St. Justin Martyr. All that Christians must believe to be saved is not contained in the Bible. For example, I have yet to meet a protestant who can quote me chapter and verse where the books that are included in the Bible are listed. The canon or list of inspired books that belong in the Bible is not contained in the Bible; it comes from Sacred Tradition. It is the same with prayers to the Holy Saints. There are instances in the Bible, but perhaps they are not conclusive. It doesn’t matter. Sacred Tradition, which gives us the list of books that belong in the Bible, is clear that Christians can and should pray to the Saints in Heaven.

 

[ern42]

First of all mind reader, who said I was a SDA? Just becasue I qoute the Bible you automatically think I’m a SDA member?
Second the church (cc) as been around for about 2000 years, yet God’s eternal law has been around since creation! The word of God has also been around since the begining of time and inspired by the Holy Ghost, far before your self proclaimed mother church. In any true Christian’s rational brain, their is NO comparison…You have God’s eternal law (10-commandments) in one hand or a church that created their own doctrines which aren’t scripture based, instead are based on tradition on the other. WOW the desicion is really tough to make!
The Holy Spirit has always inspired man to follow God and to do his will, yet satan on the other hand has always tried to go against God’s will and throw his eternal commandments in the garbage. Maybe that’s why in the 1800’s, after thousands of years of persection, from the “mother church” many started reading their own Bible’s and many guided by the Holy Spirit, realized God’s truths, weren’t what the “mother church” was telling them, but instead what God was telling them through his Word.

All your theories about why you keep Sunday as your new holy day, are full of fluff and hot air. Yeah Jesus resurrected on Sunday and what, does that give the catholic church the authority to change God’s perfect and eternal law? Yeah, Jesus came and abolished all the Jewish laws (Moises laws, rituals, ect…) did he infact abolish the 4th commandment, after he specifically said…
“Think not that I am come to destroy the law. … I am not come to destroy, but to fulfill. … Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.” Matthew 5:17, 18. I wonder what law JESUS was talking about in the NT.
No, indeed! Jesus specifically asserted that He did not come to destroy the law, but to fulfill (or keep) it. Instead of doing away with the law, Jesus magnified it (Isaiah 42:21) as the perfect guide for right living. Jesus pointed out that “thou shalt not kill” condemns anger “without a cause” (Matthew 5:21, 22) and hatred (1 John 3:15), and that lust is adultery (Matthew 5:27, 28). He says, “If ye love me, keep my commandments.” John
14:15.

Like I said, man made doctrines that are full of fluff, hot air, NO SUBSTANCE!!! Show me ANYWHERE IN THE ENTIRE SCRIPTURE, and read carefully…WHERE GOD CHANGED SABBATH (4th commandment) to SUNDAY? When you find it (which you won’t) send me your address so I can forward you my salary for the rest of 2009!

Through out history their have been thousands and thousands of TRUE GOD LOVING CHRISTIANS that have kept God’s commandments and tried to do his will, not just Mrs. White. Put also through out history satan has tried to keep God’s message in the dark. He’s tried confuse God’s clear truth with man made stupidity! He’s persecuted those true christians and he accused them of herescy, and why becasue they all stood by God’s true law his 10 commandments, not by made made doctrines like Sunday worship. Does that sound like a God driven church to you?

On the first day of the week, when we were gathered together to break bread, Paul talked with them… [Acts 20:7] Where does it say to abolish God’s eternal law and to NOW worship on SUNDAY?…*

It is interesting to note that St. Paul had spent a week with the community in Troas (Acts 20:6), and this is the only reported time that he celebrated the “breaking of bread” with them. Also no remarks are made later in this passage that St. Paul disapproved of their worship on Sunday. One would expect St. Paul to object to this practice*… AGAIN, Where does it say to abolish God’s eternal law and to NOW worship on SUNDAY?..*

So on Thanksgiving, when the family gets together to worship the Lord and thank him for his many blessings, I should then make Thanksgiving (Thursday) the official day of the Lord and toss out GOD’S ETERNAL LAW RIGHT? Or maybe when we get together and pray on a Wed., night…we’re worshipping, so let’s make Wed., the Lords new day! LOL…
IT"S THE LORDS DAY NOT YOURS TO CHANGE AND ESPECIALLY NOT THE catholic church!!!

God doesn’t need the catholic church, Don’t limit God or His Holy Spirit!!!
The catholic church needs God! I don’t care if the catholic church has been around for a million years, that DOES NOT give it the authority of changing GOD’S LAW!!!
The same thing goes for the SDA church, and any church that thinks it has that much authority!!!

Remember the Bible text…
Love Ern.*

 

[SD_Catholic]

First of all mind reader, who said I was a SDA? Just becasue I qoute the Bible you automatically think I’m a SDA member?
Second the church (cc) as been around for about 2000 years, yet God’s eternal law has been around since creation! The word of God has also been around since the begining of time and inspired by the Holy Ghost, far before your self proclaimed mother church. In any true Christian’s rational brain, their is NO comparison…You have God’s eternal law (10-commandments) in one hand or a church that created their own doctrines which aren’t scripture based, instead are based on tradition on the other. WOW the desicion is really tough to make!
The Holy Spirit has always inspired man to follow God and to do his will, yet satan on the other hand has always tried to go against God’s will and throw his eternal commandments in the garbage. Maybe that’s why in the 1800’s, after thousands of years of persection, from the “mother church” many started reading their own Bible’s and many guided by the Holy Spirit, realized God’s truths, weren’t what the “mother church” was telling them, but instead what God was telling them through his Word.

All your theories about why you keep Sunday as your new holy day, are full of fluff and hot air. Yeah Jesus resurrected on Sunday and what, does that give the catholic church the authority to change God’s perfect and eternal law? Yeah, Jesus came and abolished all the Jewish laws (Moises laws, rituals, ect…) did he infact abolish the 4th commandment, after he specifically said…
“Think not that I am come to destroy the law. … I am not come to destroy, but to fulfill. … Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.” Matthew 5:17, 18. I wonder what law JESUS was talking about in the NT.
No, indeed! Jesus specifically asserted that He did not come to destroy the law, but to fulfill (or keep) it. Instead of doing away with the law, Jesus magnified it (Isaiah 42:21) as the perfect guide for right living. Jesus pointed out that “thou shalt not kill” condemns anger “without a cause” (Matthew 5:21, 22) and hatred (1 John 3:15), and that lust is adultery (Matthew 5:27, 28). He says, “If ye love me, keep my commandments.” John
14:15.

Like I said, man made doctrines that are full of fluff, hot air, NO SUBSTANCE!!! Show me ANYWHERE IN THE ENTIRE SCRIPTURE, and read carefully…WHERE GOD CHANGED SABBATH (4th commandment) to SUNDAY? When you find it (which you won’t) send me your address so I can forward you my salary for the rest of 2009!

Through out history their have been thousands and thousands of TRUE GOD LOVING CHRISTIANS that have kept God’s commandments and tried to do his will, not just Mrs. White. Put also through out history satan has tried to keep God’s message in the dark. He’s tried confuse God’s clear truth with man made stupidity! He’s persecuted those true christians and he accused them of herescy, and why becasue they all stood by God’s true law his 10 commandments, not by made made doctrines like Sunday worship. Does that sound like a God driven church to you?

On the first day of the week, when we were gathered together to break bread, Paul talked with them… [Acts 20:7] Where does it say to abolish God’s eternal law and to NOW worship on SUNDAY?…*

It is interesting to note that St. Paul had spent a week with the community in Troas (Acts 20:6), and this is the only reported time that he celebrated the “breaking of bread” with them. Also no remarks are made later in this passage that St. Paul disapproved of their worship on Sunday. One would expect St. Paul to object to this practice*… AGAIN, Where does it say to abolish God’s eternal law and to NOW worship on SUNDAY?

…*

So on Thanksgiving, when the family gets together to worship the Lord and thank him for his many blessings, I should then make Thanksgiving (Thursday) the official day of the Lord and toss out GOD’S ETERNAL LAW RIGHT? Or maybe when we get together and pray on a Wed., night…we’re worshipping, so let’s make Wed., the Lords new day! LOL…
IT"S THE LORDS DAY NOT YOURS TO CHANGE AND ESPECIALLY NOT THE catholic church!!!

God doesn’t need the catholic church, Don’t limit God or His Holy Spirit!!!
The catholic church needs God! I don’t care if the catholic church has been around for a million years, that DOES NOT give it the authority of changing GOD’S LAW!!!
The same thing goes for the SDA church, and any church that thinks it has that much authority!!!

Remember the Bible text…
Love Ern.*

So you’re not SDA? I didn’t realize there were other Sabbath only Christians who despised the CC so much

I can tell you have no intentions of an honest discussion though… and since I also know where that road leads I will leave you alone… others have much more patience for being talked at than me. I will leave you with my prayers.

SD