Catholic Arguments For and Against the Death Penalty

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I was actually hoping for something more serious than this. If you’re interested in heresies, however, you might find this informative.One of the chief heretical tenets of the Anabaptists and of the Trinitarians of the present day is, that it is not lawful for Christians to exercise magisterial power, nor should body-guards, tribunals, judgments, the right of capital punishment, etc., be maintained among Christians. (St. Bellarmine)
Was there anything in any of my comments that justifies this caricature of what I’ve said? Mostly what I have done is cite what the church herself has taught. When did that become anathema? You seem frustrated in discovering that your position on capital punishment is not as defensible as you believed, but that is no reason to direct your anger at me.

Ender
Come now, you can’t take a little tongue in cheek humor!

I still though, don’t understand your point in advocating for the death penalty in the United States today…

The only purpose in the United States is Vengence, to get pay back, to watch someone suffer like they made their victim suffer.

I suppose you are calling this justice…unfortunately it is a great injustice when it is sentenced to the innocent! This happens far too much.

Our prisons can hold them, our chaplains can heal them, our society can be protected.
 
Ender, as I’ve stated previously, I’m no longer willing to discuss this topic with you. Having a position that those who oppose capital punishment are denying the teaching of the Church for 2000 years, that the Catechism promotes a weak and dangerous teaching, that Pope StJPII and other post V2 Popes are deficient and ignorant theologians compared to your illustrious educated self … is utter tosh.

The Church is my Mother and I love and obey her, I look to her for guidance and have hopeful, joyful faith in her teachings. I feel blessed to have my uncle (whose also my godfather) a traditional Priest of 55 years who in all that time I have NEVER heard take potshots at the Popes and the Catechism teachings regardless of the difficulties it has presented to his traditional heart. He should be retired but many Priests today don’t retire. In May on a visit to my hometown I went to Saturday eve Mass at the chapel he has under his house, read the prayers of the faithful with his old greying cattle dog lying on my feet and sang Breath on Me Breath of God from the old Maroon hymnal that we used when we were kids in the 60’s and 70’s.

This is the Church I love and the path I faithfully follow like Browns cows through a wild world of prideful defiance and disobedient protest. I’m just simply not interested in your “Catechism is weak and dangerous” non Catholic rubbish mongering.

Take it to someone else with more patience than me.
 
Genesis 9:6 speaks only about the punishment for murder. This is in the context of God’s covenant with Noah; it was not part of the Mosaic Code.



Again, God was not speaking to the Hebrews in that passage, the Old Law was non-existent at that time, and the covenant with Noah cannot be superseded.



We are, however, bound by the Noahic covenant.The covenant with Noah remains in force during the times of the Gentiles, until the universal proclamation of the Gospel. (CCC 58)
Ender
If you cite Genesis in support of the death penalty for murder, must you not also cite Leviticus, Exodus, Numbers, etc., in support of the death penalty for blasphemy, adultery, etc.? Why do you ignore the latter? They are all in the Bible.
 
If you cite Genesis in support of the death penalty for murder, must you not also cite Leviticus, Exodus, Numbers, etc., in support of the death penalty for blasphemy, adultery, etc.? Why do you ignore the latter? They are all in the Bible.
No, for reasons I outlined earlier (which have nothing to do with them merely being “in the Bible”):
By “there” you presumably mean in the Old Testament, not Genesis 9:6 in particular, which simply says that murderers are to be put to death. We can read this a little more broadly (as the Church, historically, always has) as laying down a general principle: that human life is sacred precisely because of its conformity to the rational nature of God, and that the illicit taking of human life is a crime of the highest magnitude which merits the highest punishment. Subsequent passages in the OT (i.e., in Deuteronomy and Leviticus and elsewhere) don’t presume to lay out moral principles, they just extrapolate the general principle to particular cases. Obviously, general moral principles cannot change, even if the circumstances of their application can; so the fact that both of them appear in the OT is not in itself evidence that we have to either accept both or reject both.
 
sw85, I would like to have such moral certainty in picking and choosing from the many laws of the Old Testament. How do you know which to keep and which to throw out? Why do some Catholics cling so tightly to the death penalty for murder and disregard the also divinely-revealed death penalties for blasphemy, adultery, and so many more sins? Yeah, yeah, I know, sanctity of life, image of God, but why would you draw the line there, why settle for less than the full application of the law, when Scripture does not? Or does it?
 
Quoting the Old Testament (e.g., Genesis 9:6) is not a valid approach to this question. There we read that one should be put to death for adultery or even for doing work on the Sabbath. Jesus told us different.
Genesis is for all peoples and all times.

As the recent CCC states:

2260: “For your lifeblood I will surely require a reckoning… Whoever sheds the blood of man, by man shall his blood be shed; for God made man in his own image.” “This teaching remains necessary for all time.”

Jesus and the Death Penalty
prodpinnc.blogspot.com/2013/06/jesus-and-death-penalty.html
 
The wrongful execution of an innocent person is an injustice that can never be rectified. Since the reinstatement of the death penalty, 144 men and women have been released from death row nationally.
Not only is that untrue, but innocents are better protected with the death penalty.

The Innocent Frauds: Standard Anti Death Penalty Strategy
and
THE DEATH PENALTY: SAVING MORE INNOCENT LIVES
prodpinnc.blogspot.com/2013/04/the-innocent-frauds-standard-anti-death.html
 
SNIP

As stated in the linked article, we can ensure that prisoners are kept away from society for life, which is ultimately the goal of taking someone’s life, with our current system.
The ultimate goal of all sanctions is justice or as the latest CCC states, redress is primary.
 
SNIP

I know the Death Penalty isn’t a new topic for this forum, but this article hopefully has a new and interesting approach for those interested in it:

Catholic Arguments For and Against the Death Penalty

I personally tend to be convinced by the first two arguments in favor of the death penalty.
My rebuttal to the against the death penalty arguments.
  1. The latest Catechism has horrendous problems.
The Catechism and the Death Penalty
prodpinnc.blogspot.com/2013/06/the-catechism-death-penalty.html
  1. Pro Life: The Death Penalty
    prodpinnc.blogspot.com/2013/01/pro-life-death-penalty.html
The Death Penalty: Mercy, Expiation, Redemption & Salvation
prodpinnc.blogspot.com/2013/06/the-death-penalty-mercy-expiation.html

Jesus and the Death Penalty
prodpinnc.blogspot.com/2013/06/jesus-and-death-penalty.html
  1. “An eye for an eye only ends up making the whole world blind”:
    Zero evidence that Gandhi said it
    prodpinnc.blogspot.com/2014/02/gandhi-eye-for-eye-leaves-everybody.html
  2. THE DEATH PENALTY: SAVING MORE INNOCENT LIVES
The Death Penalty: Do Innocents Matter? A Review of All Innocence Issues
prodpinnc.blogspot.com/2013/10/the-death-penalty-do-innocents-matter.html

The Innocent Frauds: Standard Anti Death Penalty Strategy
and
THE DEATH PENALTY: SAVING MORE INNOCENT LIVES
prodpinnc.blogspot.com/2013/04/the-innocent-frauds-standard-anti-death.html

OF COURSE THE DEATH PENALTY DETERS: A review of the debate
and
MURDERERS MUCH PREFER LIFE OVER EXECUTION
99.7% of murderers tell us “Give me life, not execution”
prodpinnc.blogspot.com/2013/03/of-course-death-penalty-deters.html
  1. see1
 
CCC SNIP

Today, in fact, as a consequence of the possibilities which the state has for effectively preventing crime, by rendering one who has committed an offense incapable of doing harm . . . the cases in which the execution of the offender is an absolute necessity “are very rare, if not practically non-existent.”[/INDENT]
This is astounding, impossible ignorance.

Understand the Church and Pope John Paul II were in the middle of an excruciating and highly public priest sex crimes scandal, many cases which allowed for priests to re offend, over and over, again.

These pronouncements, within 2267, reflect zero knowledge or concern about the reality of violence within prisons and the fact that prison systems, worldwide, allow unjust aggressors to re offend over and over, again.

The “non-existent” statement, within both EV and the CCC, shows astounding ignorance of innocent victims being harmed, over and over, again, by all of those connected to those two documents.

This is such a poorly considered prudential judgement as to negate any “prudential” moniker or any reference to judgement.

Cases whereby the unjust aggressors harm and murder, again, in prison, after escape or improper release are way too common (4) - the factual opposite of the Church’s incomprehensible finding that such cases are “very rare, if not practically non existent”, a factual error so profound and obvious that it is clear that fact checking was avoided in both EV, as well as in the Catechism, showing zero concern for innocent victims.

The Church and Pope John Paul II made no prudential judgement, here, but instead, made a factual assertion which was entirely false, with zero fact checking and showing little interest - a grossly irresponsible judgement — this at a time when both the Church and PJPII were in the midst of a horrendous moral scandal of priests being allowed to sexually assault children, repeatedly.

A Google search of – recidivism crime worldwide – produced 4.76 million hits, within 0.21 seconds. Try it.

Let’s look at “the means at the State’s disposal” and the absolute willful ignorance of anyone that would state that repeat offenders are “very rare, if not practically non-existent.”

The Catechism and EV are, hereby, using the secular standard of penal security as a means to outweigh the teachings based in justice, balance, redress, reformation, expiation, all of which are primary, within 2000 years Church teachings.

All villages, towns, cities, states, territories, countries and broad government unions have widely varying degrees of police protections and prison security. Murderers escape, harm and murder in prison and are given such leeway as to murder and/or harm, again, because of “mercy” to the murderer, leniency and irresponsibility to murderers, who are released or otherwise given the opportunity to cause catastrophic losses to the innocent, repeatedly, when such innocents are harmed and murdered by unjust aggressors, over and over, again. (4)

Incarcerated prisoners plan murders, escapes and all types of criminal activity, using proxies or cell phones in directing free world criminal activities. All of this is well known by all, with the apparent exception of the authors of the Catechism and EV (4).

Some countries are so idiotic, reckless and callous as to allow terrorists to sign pledges that they will not harm again and then they are released, bound only by their word, a worthless pledge resulting in more innocent blood (4).

It is as if the Church was unaware of Her disastrous problems of the last 5 decades, when violent sex offenders were allowed to re victimize innocents over and over, again, inside the Church.

How could this happen?

There exists the clear conflict between (1) this unprecedented and unjustified restriction on the death penalty and (2) “Preserving the common good requires rendering the unjust aggressor unable to inflict harm” found earlier in this same Catechism.

Which is it? Is the Church going to require “rendering the unjust aggressor unable to inflict harm” or is the Church going to require that we do everything except render the unjust aggressor unable to inflict harm?

Inexcusably absent from consideration, within the Catechism, is any specific discussion of harm to “innocent” murder victims and potential murder victims and the effects on their earthly and eternal lives when we give known murderers the opportunity, too often realized, to harm and murder, again.

It is as if the Church didn’t consider that executed murderers cannot harm, again, but that livings murderers can and do. Stark realities escaped the Church’s and EV’s review (4).

Why has the Church chosen to depend upon widely varying and error prone incarceration systems, when the reality is that so many innocents are caused further suffering by known unjust aggressors, because of the failings in those systems (4)?

It appears the Catechism’s (& EV) authors never considered the reality of such suffering (3&4).

And why has the Church done this when it commands “Preserving the common good requires rendering the unjust aggressor unable to inflict harm.” ? 2265

Here are the known realities of all unjust aggressors, murderers and other violent offenders. They can morally/criminally/spiritually:
(a) improve, which can mean everything in a spectrum from still quite bad to sainthood;
(b) stay the same, a bad result for them and others; or
(c) become worse, a more severe, negative outcome which puts the unjust aggressor and all others even more at risk.

What the Church has done is to reverse its longstanding emphasis on protecting innocents, already a recognized disaster with Her priestly sex horrors.

CONTD
 
CONTD
  1. FOOTNOTES Most cut

23 escape from Yemen prison, 13 are al Quaeda
globalsecurity.org/security/profiles/massive_jailbreak_in_yemen.htm

Governor commutes 108 year sentence: Offender later murders 4 policemen, while on bond for child rape

Governor rejects any responsibility for his own multiple failures, but blames others.

Mike Huckabee Granted Clemency to Maurice Clemmons
By BRIAN MONTOPOLI/CBS NEWS/ November 30, 2009, 10:50 AM
cbsnews.com/8301-503544_162-5835831-503544.html and

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maurice_Clemmons

Inmate claims to be “cripple”. Surprise!

Repeat sex offender,“cripple” serving life, overpowers guards, escapes
blog.taragana.com/law/2009/11/30/authorities-sex-offender-pulls-gun-on-texas-guards-during-prison-transfer-search-ongoing-17934/

Inmates run prison.

“The inmates literally took over ‘the asylum,’ and the detention centers became safe havens for BGF,” said FBI Special Agent in Charge Stephen E. Vogt."

“The Black Guerilla Family was founded in California in the 1960s but now operates nationwide in prisons and on the streets of major U.S. cities, including Baltimore. It arrived in Maryland’s prison system in the 1990s, according to the Justice Department, and is increasingly involved in narcotics trafficking, robbery, assault and homicides. By 2006, federal authorities say, the BGF had become the dominant gang at the Baltimore City Detention Center.”

Prison Gang Runs Prison, Drug Trafficking, Money Laundering and Impregnate 4 Guards:
“3 corrections officers indicted in Md., accused of aiding gang’s drug scheme”, Washington Post, 4/23/13​

Inmate changes clothes, walks out of jail.

Officials “embarrassed” by Texas death row inmate escape, Houston Chronicle, November 06, 2005
policeone.com/corrections/articles/120563-Officials-embarrassed-by-Texas-death-row-inmate-escape/

“. . . Thompson claimed he had an appointment with his lawyer and was taken to a meeting room. However, the visitor was not Thompson’s attorney.” “After the visitor left, Thompson removed his handcuffs and his bright orange prison jumpsuit and got out of a prisoner’s booth that should have been locked. He then left wearing a dark blue shirt, khaki pants and white tennis shoes, carrying a fake identification badge and claiming to work for the Texas Attorney General’s office.” “This was 100 percent human error; that’s the most frustrating thing about it.” “There were multiple failures.” Trial jurors and victim’s relatives were terrified.​

Inmate, double cop murderer, runs prison.

Ronell Wilson, a former New York City street gang member, sentenced to death in the execution-style slayings of 2 police officers “was permitted to treat the Metropolitan Detention Center as his own fiefdom,” U.S. District Judge Nicholas Garaufis said.

" . . . authorities revealed Wilson fathered a child with a jail guard . . ." "The judge called the killing of undercover officers James Nemorin and Rodney Andrews ’ 1 of the most grisly and horrific crimes the city has ever seen.’ " “Wilson proved he was remorseless by repeatedly acting out behind bars after winning an appeal”, the judge said.

These go on and on, forever, in complete contradiction to the fiction of EV and CCC.
 
SNIP On the same token, using the death penalty justly (when it is the only way to protect society) is a moral act.

But using the death penalty unjustly (when it is used despite other means of protecting society) it is immoral.

The latter is the case for most of western society. It is certainly true for the US.

So this is not a prudential judgement but instead the just application of a divine law.
This is incorrect.

2004, Cardinal Ratzinger (now retired Pope Benedict XVI) Prefect of the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, with guidance to the United States Conference of Catholic Bishops, stated succinctly, emphatically and unambiguously as follows: June, 2004 “Not all moral issues have the same moral weight as abortion and euthanasia. For example, if a Catholic were to be at odds with the Holy Father on the application of capital punishment or on the decision to wage war, he would not for that reason be considered unworthy to present himself to receive Holy Communion. While the Church exhorts civil authorities to seek peace, not war, and to exercise discretion and mercy in imposing punishment on criminals, it may still be permissible to take up arms to repel an aggressor or to have recourse to capital punishment. There may be a legitimate diversity of opinion even among Catholics about waging war and applying the death penalty, but not however with regard to abortion and euthanasia.”

That makes it a prudential judgement.

Furthermore, both EV and CCC are factually inaccurate with their own prudential judgement.

Innocents are more protected with the death penalty (1), therefore the death penalty offers a greater defense of society.

The Death Penalty: Do Innocents Matter? A Review of All Innocence Issues
prodpinnc.blogspot.com/2013/10/the-death-penalty-do-innocents-matter.html
 
The death penalty was abolished in my Australian state 100 years ago and in the whole of Australia by 50 years ago. It was recognised as ‘unjust’ and an uncivilised measure, In no way is that considered to be a temporary measure until we can crank up the old guillotines in a blaze of glory again. We are constantly growing in awareness of what it means to be made in Gods image and the extent of our fraternity as people. Please God we never see a return to the death penalty as that would mark a severe retreat from both our civil and spiritual maturity.
The Death Penalty: Mercy, Expiation, Redemption & Salvation
prodpinnc.blogspot.com/2013/06/the-death-penalty-mercy-expiation.html

Jesus and the Death Penalty
prodpinnc.blogspot.com/2013/06/jesus-and-death-penalty.html

"All interpretations, contrary to the biblical support of capital punishment, are false. Interpreters ought to listen to the Bible’s own agenda, rather than to squeeze from it implications for their own agenda. As the ancient rabbis taught, “Do not seek to be more righteous than your Creator.” (Ecclesiastes Rabbah 7.33.). Part of Synopsis of Professor Lloyd R. Bailey’s book Capital Punishment: What the Bible Says, Abingdon Press, 1987.

Saint (& Pope) Pius V, “The just use of (executions), far from involving the crime of murder, is an act of paramount obedience to this (Fifth) Commandment which prohibits murder.” “The Roman Catechism of the Council of Trent” (1566).

Pope Pius XII: “When it is a question of the execution of a man condemned to death it is then reserved to the public power to deprive the condemned of the benefit of life, in expiation of his fault, when already, by his fault, he has dispossessed himself of the right to live.” 9/14/52.

“Moral/ethical Death Penalty Support: Modern Catholic Scholars”
prodpinnc.blogspot.com/2009/07/death-penalty-support-modern-catholic.html
 
SNIP

Personally, I think the death penalty is moral but am not in favor of it in practice in first world nations due to the expense and problems with determining the guilt of some.
Reconsider:

The Innocent Frauds: Standard Anti Death Penalty Strategy
and
THE DEATH PENALTY: SAVING MORE INNOCENT LIVES
prodpinnc.blogspot.com/2013/04/the-innocent-frauds-standard-anti-death.html

The Death Penalty: Do Innocents Matter? A Review of All Innocence Issues
prodpinnc.blogspot.com/2013/10/the-death-penalty-do-innocents-matter.html

Saving Costs with The Death Penalty
prodpinnc.blogspot.com/2013/02/death-penalty-cost-saving-money.html
 
SNIP
[/INDENT]Actually, Jesus never spoke against capital punishment even in this case where its use would seem barbarous to us.*
Ender*

In fact, the ultimate case of restorative justice is salavation, the outcome of execution for St. Dismas.

A more obvious example of expiation may not exist.

Jesus: Now one of the criminals hanging there reviled Jesus, saying, “Are you not the Messiah? Save yourself and us.” The other, however, rebuking him, said in reply, “Have you no fear of God, for you are subject to the same condemnation? And indeed, we have been condemned justly, for the sentence we received corresponds to our crimes, but this man has done nothing criminal.” Then he said, “Jesus, remember me when you come into your kingdom.” (Jesus) replied to him, “Amen, I say to you, today you will be with me in Paradise.” Luke 23: 39-43.

It is not the nature of our deaths, but the state of our salvation at the time of our death which is most important.

The Death Penalty: Mercy, Expiation, Redemption & Salvation
prodpinnc.blogspot.com/2013/06/the-death-penalty-mercy-expiation.html
 
SNIP

I read the Church as saying that the death penalty should be avoided for prudential reasons, i.e., because modern society no longer has a clear conception of the state as a dispenser of divine justice (or even a clear conception of “justice”), so that execution of criminals tends to conduce, not to an appreciation of divine justice, but to a valorization of the wrath of the mob and the supreme power of the totalitarian state. And I happen to agree with that assessment and with the conclusion that comes from it. But that is certainly different from saying “the death penalty is immoral today,” which, beyond being a non sequitur, is at odds with what the Church teaches. SNIP
There are two major problems with this.
  1. The Church hasn’t made that case. Why would She hide the truth, if that was it?
  2. Even worse, let’s assume you are correct, that such is a foundation for the changing of the teachings.
You are saying that the Church has given up on teaching the truth, that She would rather abandon the teachings of justice, redress, just retribution, expiation, etc. and, instead has decided to give up on those eternal teachings and to succumb to the error filled understandings of her flock, by changing eternal teachings.

If true, that would be horrendous - a surrender of eternal truths to secular humanistic error.

What Bishop would so harm their flock in such a manner?
 
How do you address the point that protection is not the primary objective of punishment; that it is only secondary? Should the obligation not be to satisfy the primary objective?

Ender
What is it that you consider the primary objective to be? I would think that life in prison, without any possibility of parole would satisfy every moral and ethical objective, whether it is punitive, redemptive, or penitential. The only thing this sentence would not address would be the eye for an eye bit from the Old Testament, before the incarnation.

I will give you that death may, like life without parole, also satisfy the punitive aspect, if that is one’s only objective, or strong primary objective, but it doesn’t allow for the redemptive or penitential (in some cases), and is irrevocable in all cases, should innocence be brought to light. So it would appear to be the poorer option, whether morally and ethically sound or not.
 
Except this is contrary to the teaching of the church, to Jesus’ words of “love your enemies” .

There is no reason to kill someone who is not a threat to you.

Perhaps you advocate the killing of children who curse their parents and homosexuals and adulterers. Or you at least hold that such punishments are commensurate with the severity of the crime.

In reality, the only reason such punishments were ever valid was not for justice but for the protection of the society.
Reconsider.
  1. Love and care are foundational for sanction.
The Death Penalty: Mercy, Expiation, Redemption & Salvation
prodpinnc.blogspot.com/2013/06/the-death-penalty-mercy-expiation.html
  1. Jesus brought the execution of children into the NT. Why?
Jesus and the Death Penalty
prodpinnc.blogspot.com/2013/06/jesus-and-death-penalty.html
  1. As the CCC says justice/redress is primary. There is only a moral foundation for sanction if it is deserved. There is no moral foundation for the safety of society if you sanction innocent people. Sanction is justice, which has an outcome of safety for society.
Justice primary.
Safety of society secondary, but important.
 
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