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distracted
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No.You’re kidding, right?
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notself
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NolePaul2009
Guest
Ive come across a few of these types recently on the internet. IMO, Ive learned from those who are more knowledgable then me on the subject is to ignore these people and radical groups. This guy this thread is no different from the folks from Westboro Baptist or the folks from Landover Baptist. They are haters and are misled, and debating them with fact doesn’t work as they are numb to the truth. Im becoming of the opinion that it is best to ignore these types, as all they are wanting IMO is attention. By emailing this guy, or the groups I mentioned or any other group like this is just a waste of time. All you can do is pray for these people.
po18guy
Well-known member
Amen! May the Lord send another Ananias to restore their sight, so that something like scales may fall from their eyes.
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rshultz
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Well, that’s an argument a person could make about ANY Christian denomination, right?
I mean, our Founder was born through a virgin, later died, and then was resurrected from the dead, and ascended to heaven.
I would say that’s even more unusual, wouldn’t you?
po18guy
Well-known member
In the case of our Savior, and all works done by God, miraculous is the adjective which applies. Miraculous is consistent with every action of our Creator. Unusual is a charitable term which I chose to apply when the founder/‘prophet’ (Ellen G. White) of a faith tradition (SDA) has suffered a historically documented serious head injury, allegations of mercury poisoning from hat making (“mad hatters”), and goes on to receive claimed visions.
Knowing then what we know now, her mental stability or health would certainly have been called into even greater question. Consider also scripture which cautions us against false prophets - an amazing variety of whom suddenly appeared in 1800s America. Any prophet whose words or writings change the very nature of God is immediately suspect. Or, should be.
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rshultz
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I think you missed my point, brother.
To an objective person, a virgin birth, resurrection and ascension is far more “unusual” than someone claiming to have received visions from God.
Someone who believes that these visions were from God is not likely to be swayed by someone who claims that they are unusual, given that both believe in Jesus Christ, who was very unusual indeed. We’ve already crossed the line of faith in terms of accepting the miraculous.
Not all who take a knock on the head are crazy. I’d have to read what she wrote before I could form an opinion on whether it was truth from the Source.
Be careful using the same types of arguments that the Pharisees used against Jesus in an attempt to discredit Him. Much better to rely on what was said/written.
To an objective person, a virgin birth, resurrection and ascension is far more “unusual” than someone claiming to have received visions from God.
Someone who believes that these visions were from God is not likely to be swayed by someone who claims that they are unusual, given that both believe in Jesus Christ, who was very unusual indeed. We’ve already crossed the line of faith in terms of accepting the miraculous.
Not all who take a knock on the head are crazy. I’d have to read what she wrote before I could form an opinion on whether it was truth from the Source.
Be careful using the same types of arguments that the Pharisees used against Jesus in an attempt to discredit Him. Much better to rely on what was said/written.
po18guy
Well-known member
For the sake of debate, I’ll surrender this point.
But, we are not, by scripture, to cross the line of false prophets. (Matthew 7:15, 24:11, 24:24; Mark 13:22, Luke 6:26, 2 Peter 1, 1 John 4:1) The Catholic Church teaches that public revelation stopped with the death of the Apostle John. This has proven not only to be true, but also prevents the influence of false prophets upon the faithful.
Let’s set the record straight here: The injury to Ellen Gould White was permanently disfiguring, and left her in a coma for three weeks. That is much more than a “knock”, wouldn’t you say? Combine this serious injury with continuing exposure to poisonous mercury in the course of a day’s work. Would you want her as your pilot?
The best determiner of truth is the church, the “pillar and foundation of truth” (1 Timothy 3:15) This is why any such “vision” or “revelation” is considered private in the Catholic Church, and applies only to the person receiving it. It must be studied by the church as to its potential applicability to any other persons. Failure to do this risks leading the faithful astray.
Nice try. By your own standard, the Book of Mormon is true. Yet, you are apparently not Mormon. Why not? The “revelation” to Joseph Smith stands the same chance of being true (perhaps more) that any claimed “revelation” to Ellen Gould White. No one claimed that Mr. Smith had a head injury or mercury poisoning. If my logic is defective, please explain where.
I note that scripture speaks of prophets in either the present or past tense. Future tense is restricted for false prophets. That’s scriptural truth, and I adhere to it.
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rshultz
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<<By your own standard, the Book of Mormon is true.>>
Not hardly. I wrote that we should look at what is written to see if it is true. The Book of Mormon does not past that test, in my opinion, since it contradicts the Bible.
Further, it is not correct to say that anyone who objects to an unfair method of accusation therefore accepts all things as true. Let’s be fair, please, in our discussion.
I think it’s obvious that we should judge based on content, the things that we know (what someone wrote) as opposed to what we don’t know (whether someone’s childhood injury made them crazy).
I can read what the church fathers wrote and judge accordingly, for example, without fear that I do not know their medical history.
Not hardly. I wrote that we should look at what is written to see if it is true. The Book of Mormon does not past that test, in my opinion, since it contradicts the Bible.
Further, it is not correct to say that anyone who objects to an unfair method of accusation therefore accepts all things as true. Let’s be fair, please, in our discussion.
I think it’s obvious that we should judge based on content, the things that we know (what someone wrote) as opposed to what we don’t know (whether someone’s childhood injury made them crazy).
I can read what the church fathers wrote and judge accordingly, for example, without fear that I do not know their medical history.
po18guy
Well-known member
Did Christ found a Church which is the pillar and foundation of truth? Did Christ assure us that the gates of hell would not prevail against it? Yes and yes. Wouldn’t that be a better place to put your trust in than personal opinion or private revelation?
My point is that we do know her medical history. It is one in which we should test what she says, as we should do with all who speak of the Gospel of Christ. This is a strike against the likelihood that her church is the genuine article.
We also know that the foundation of her church came over 1,840 years after the fact. We know that concepts not found in the bible were introduced by her revelations. We know from scripture that the structure of her church is not that of the Apostles. We know from scripture that she existed (as we do) in the era of false prophets. We know that her teachings differ with 30,000 other Christian denominations. We know that Christ did not give her authority to either establish or “restore” His Church, since neither is in scripture. We know from scripture that “restoration” churches cannot be Christ’s true Church, as Christ Himself assured us that the gates of hell would not prevail against His Church. Each is a strike against the assertion that her church is the one true church. There exist many more such strikes, if we want to go further down that road.
Based on the foregoing, and other reasons, I cannot buy her church. I merely ask those who do to examine the strikes against it. It contains truth, but not all of the revealed truth. Truth seekers should keep on looking.
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rshultz
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<<Did Christ assure us that the gates of hell would not prevail against it? Yes and yes. Wouldn’t that be a better place to put your trust in than personal opinion or private revelation?>>
No. Our faith in not to be placed in the church, which is merely the community of believers, but in God. Faith in God is the only safe place to put out trust.
God works through human beings in order to spread the gospel. It is our privelidge to participate in that work, but we should never forget that we are untrustworthy. Ony God is worthy of supreme trust.
No. Our faith in not to be placed in the church, which is merely the community of believers, but in God. Faith in God is the only safe place to put out trust.
God works through human beings in order to spread the gospel. It is our privelidge to participate in that work, but we should never forget that we are untrustworthy. Ony God is worthy of supreme trust.
po18guy
Well-known member
Where did you get this idea of faith in men? I used the word trust, and not in men, but in the Church that Christ founded in Matthew 16. Faith in men is not a Catholic teaching and never has been. God alone is worthy of faith and worship.
Exactly Catholic teaching and belief.
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rshultz
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Faith and trust are interchangeable in the Greek, and that’s the way I’m using it here.
I’m glad we can agree on the last item, however, as the first simply seems to be symantics. If the church consisted only of godly men and women, and if they possessed all the knowledge of our Creator, then I would indeed place my trust there as well.
In the meantime, it is truly a gift to have God’s Word available to us, so that we can learn more about Him in whom we can safely place out trust. Amen?
I’m glad we can agree on the last item, however, as the first simply seems to be symantics. If the church consisted only of godly men and women, and if they possessed all the knowledge of our Creator, then I would indeed place my trust there as well.
In the meantime, it is truly a gift to have God’s Word available to us, so that we can learn more about Him in whom we can safely place out trust. Amen?
po18guy
Well-known member
Well, the Word is Jesus Christ, the Word made Flesh, as the Apostle John reminded us. Precious few of the things He did and said are in scripture, but what we have of it is sacred. Amen to that!
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