Catholic Cardinal Pushes for Condoms

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cor said:
fix,

I forgot to also include this link.

jimmyakin.org/2006/05/contraception_e.html

(read his disclaimer please)
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Yep. I have read his piece before.

I think this piece speaks to it in a tangential way:
"Extrinsically, condom use brings its own train of evils. There is the act of obtaining or receiving a condom. Condom possession may be a constant temptation to sin as well as an instrument of seduction. It may lead to a habit of fornication and a contraceptive mentality that may destroy a future marriage. Another extrinsic possibility is the multiplication of malefactors, not only condom manufacturers and vendors, but school boards, or trustees, or teachers, or counselors, or chaplains, who advise condom use, or neglect the spiritual direction needed by the young. So in heterosexual intercourse, there are both intrinsic and extrinsic reasons to say that to use a condom is never the lesser sin."2 It is clear that support for the use of the condom to prevent spread of HIV is in contradiction to Church teaching.
lifeissues.net/writers/she/she_11condom.html#a1
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Personally, I support condom use in marriage as being equal to NFP. And if one is going to give into temptation and sin outside of marriage, I would hope they use a condom.
 
Nohome said:
Well, USCCB estimate that less than 4% of American Catholics use NFP. The average Catholic family consists of about two offspring. Are you suggesting that Catholics are just not that fertile?

Nohome
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Well, I am a Catholic and I don’t use birth control.

Simply because a large majority of people might be contracepting doesn’t mean we should endorse disobeying Christ.

I suppose if 96% of people jumped off a bridge, you would too? :confused:
 
Bella3502 said:
hasikelee;1903762:
Bella3502, can you clarify what you mean by this statement?

I at first took it to mean that you are saying, if all the people practicing this behavior that is contrary to church teaching were exocommunicated, then there would be nobody left in the church.

And I thought that can’t be right as not all Catholics practice this abhorrent behavior, so people would still be left. The overwhelming majority of Catholics of child bearing age, use some form of birth control - and NFP is not one of them. And they don’t consider it abhorrent.
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Then I started thinking, perhaps you mean if those who do this were exocommunicated, then all the other Catholics would turn their backs on their faith because of what contracepting Catholics chose to do.

But I thought that couldn’t be right either, as many people don’t support or tolerate this practice nor support others’ choices to do this.

So then I thought with the last sentence (sheer hypocrisy) that you were accusing all Catholics of using birth control?
All Catholics don’t use birth control. (I don’t)

The hipocrisy I spoke of has to do with Catholics trying to tell others not to use birth control. When it comes to this issue, Catholics subscribe to a “do as I say, not as I do” mentality.

I just don’t think that “we” practice what “we” preach.

Which of course isn’t true by a long shot.
Again most Catholics, who are controlling the size of their families, for what ever reason, are using artificial birth control.

Well, I don’t contracept. The teachings of Christ don’t allow contraception anywhere for any reason. So I don’t see how anyone has the “do as I say, not as I do” mentality. Christ’s teachings and the Magisterium have been crystal clear on this issue.

Its hilarious that you are saying a person who claims to be Catholic and contracepts, would go around arguing AGAINST contraception, especially in what appears to be an emotional plea for relativism.

Rather, I would imagine those who are using contraception and still claiming to be Catholic would either a) be hiding it in shame or b) be fighting tooth and dagger to make the Church accept their behavior.

Funniest thing ever, to imagine someone contracepting and arguing against it in the name of the Church.
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fix said:
As for the double effect that assertion requires the action be good or neutral. Using a condom during intercourse is evil. Simply calling it not evil does not transform the intrinsically evil action into a good one. Also, the condom is not a medical treatment.
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I believe Catholic moral theologians permit couples to use perforated condoms to help with infertility diagnosis. If it were possible to make a condom that blocked the AIDS virus but didn’t block sperm, would you agree that that at least would be licit? If one wants to block one but it ends up blocking the other as well, then I don’t see how it cannot be justified by the principle of double effect.
 
cor said:
I believe Catholic moral theologians permit couples to use perforated condoms to help with infertility diagnosis. If it were possible to make a condom that blocked the AIDS virus but didn’t block sperm, would you agree that that at least would be licit? If one wants to block one but it ends up blocking the other as well, then I don’t see how it cannot be justified by the principle of double effect.
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That sounds like a very smart device, but it wouldn’t be a latex sheath.

Perhaps something in the future that would target and kill the virus while leaving the sperm intact.
 
hasikelee said:
Well, I am a Catholic and I don’t use birth control.

Simply because a large majority of people might be contracepting doesn’t mean we should endorse disobeying Christ.

I suppose if 96% of people jumped off a bridge, you would too? :confused:
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I don’t remember Christ saying anything about contraception (pro or con).
 
mikew262 said:
I don’t remember Christ saying anything about contraception (pro or con).
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Sure He did!

Remember, He told the Apostles “He who hears you, hears Me”

So when the Apostles, and their heirs, teach against Contraception, it is Christ Himself that we hear.
 
hasikelee said:
That sounds like a very smart device, but it wouldn’t be a latex sheath.

Perhaps something in the future that would target and kill the virus while leaving the sperm intact.
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That would be an AIDS vaccine.
 
Brendan said:
That would be an AIDS vaccine.
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No, a vaccine is a mixture of various ingredients including a live or dead virus, in the hopes that your body will respond by creating unique antibodies to the particular virus.

Due to the way HIV replicates in the cell, I’d bet my money that we’ll see something that kills it before/during intercourse before we see an effective vaccine.
 
hasikelee said:
Perhaps something in the future that would target and kill the virus while leaving the sperm intact.
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Yes, this very well may happen. There are a number of promising microbicides (creams, gels, or suppositories) in development which may come available within five years or so. I don’t know for sure that these are open to life, but I am aware of at least one activist with The Alliance for Microbicide Development who has been campaigning for microbicides which kill HIV but allow for pregnancy.
 
I know there is a lot of negitivity towards abstinence and NFP in this thread, but to the people that say “no Catholics are doing it” I want to give my encouragement to those who are considering it.

Let me begin by saying: Who cares what other people are doing? That’s not an argument ; that’s peer pressure!

Throw away birth control - you’ll love it. No, you’ll LOVE it. I don’t know why, but once I started adhering to the Church’s position on sexual issues, my life totally changed. It’s very clear to me that Jesus is pleased that I’m trying to be obedient to the Church. And for me this issue was the tip of the iceberg! Once I accepted this, I accepted all kinds of other things that totally changed my life. It was like… Christ just started melting away all the roadblocks to me being happy.

I’m pretty sure God can’t be outgiven, so try to give your will to Jesus and just trust. The fun part is to see what He gives you back!

I should also note I am a 25 year old with one child and my wife stays home with our son, so we have only one income.
 
hasikelee said:
Well, I am a Catholic and I don’t use birth control.
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I guess that puts you in the 4%.
hasikelee said:
because a large majority of people might be contracepting doesn’t mean we should endorse disobeying Christ.
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I guess that would assume that I believe contracepting is disobeying Christ.
hasikelee said:
I suppose if 96% of people jumped off a bridge, you would too?
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I suppose if the CCC said you should jump off a bridge you would?

Nohome
 
Nohome said:
I guess that puts you in the 4%.

I guess that would assume that I believe contracepting is disobeying Christ.

I suppose if the CCC said you should jump off a bridge you would?

Nohome
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Don’t take it too personally. I am not assuming your beliefs, but rather pointing out the wrongful conclusion of the glib passage made.

The bottom line still remains the same: No matter how many people do something wrong, that won’t make it right and it won’t be an excuse to allow the behaviour.

Therefore, even if there were only one remaining person in the Church who remained faithful to Christ, that would not change His Church or His teachings.

Do you not remember that only one person came back to Jesus to thank Him in the scriptures? Do you not remember that all of the apostles hid during His crucifixion, and that even one of his most trusted apostles denied him three times? Did Christ throw down the towel and quit? Did He say, “Oh, gee golly, I better change my tune because I have no folllowers!”

Sounds like teenage psychology. Do whatever it takes to make people like me. Popularity is really overrated and it’s not the focus of Catholicism.
 
I do think that people, such as the Cardinal, who live in high HIV areas, may have something to say to the world. Here in the US, we are blessed with a low level of HIV for a variety of reasons including very active condom promotion programs in most of our big cities.

Can a case be made that anytime an HIV male wants his wife in a sexual way, that it is a case of aggravated rape and therefore she may request that he use a condom? In most parts of Africa, a woman does not have the right or the means to just move out on her husband.
 
Since condoms have naturally occurring voids or holes which are many times bigger than the AIDS virus, it is only a matter of time before the non-infected partner becomes infected if condoms are used.
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It is completely untrue that latex condoms are full of holes. I find it very disturbing that this myth keeps on getting passed on.
 
jack_hawkins said:
It is completely untrue that latex condoms are full of holes. I find it very disturbing that this myth keeps on getting passed on.
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Really, what do you call the space between the electrons and the nucleus 😛

Seriously, latex, at that thickness is permeable to a certain extent. This is the same reason latex balloons don’t remain inflated longer than a few days.

The question then becomes, what is the permeable cross-section relative to both sperm and a virus.
 
jack_hawkins said:
It is completely untrue that latex condoms are full of holes. I find it very disturbing that this myth keeps on getting passed on.
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This truly is disturbing. Go to any univesity and you will see nitrile gloves used in all labs except those that work with HIV (and other viruses). There they use latex.
 
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