Catholic Charismatic Renewal

[KephasAugustine]

I have attended Charismatic services several times in the past (both Protestant and Catholic). I was not impressed by what I saw and I found it very problematic on a liturgical level, at least in the Catholic ones I attended.

I am aware that the Vatican has had favorable opinions of it in the past. I am also aware that in all likelihood, the Vatican has not experienced the bastardizations of the liturgy that I have witnessed, nor the way in which some people in the movement look down on those who attend these services, but do not experience any of these so-called “Gifts of the Spirit” (which I highly doubt represent what is spoken about in the New Testament). If they had, I am sure better investigations into these practices would result, particularly under His Holiness Pope Benedict XVI, who is much less tolerant of nonsense.

I am sorry you have such a low opinion based on some abuses you have witnessed. But be reasonable–there are abuses in non-Charismatic Masses too!

I have been to many Charismatic Masses, since a Charismatic conference is what revitalized my faith and helped me to fall deeply in love with the Eucharist (weird how the Holy Spirit helps with that…), and some are better than others. I go to a Charismatic Catholic college, and there are absolutely no liturgical abuses in our daily Masses. I go to a Church off campus where there are no Charismatics, and see abuses and “bastardizations” right and left. To be fair, I’ve also seen those bastardizations in the Novus Ordo, and even in the Tridentine liturgy. By your logic, NO shouldn’t be said because some people mess it up. There are abuses in the Traditional Latin Mass, so let’s call that bad. No, I don’t think Catholicism is a bad movement thanks very much And even though some people don’t really “get it,” that doesn’t mean the movement itself is bad.

And for the record, there is nothing wrong with speaking in tongues–I am skeptical of certain people, but calling a gift from the Holy Spirit “gibberish” seems more dangerous than the ardent love shown to Him by every single Charismatic Catholic that I know.

Oh, also, I agree with you that the Eucharist is THE MOST IMPORTANT part of the Christian life. Most Charismatics do–but only most Catholics in general do, too. Still, face facts, Jesus wants us to love the whole Trinity…He’s not in a power struggle but in an eternal exchange of love with the Father and Holy Spirit. Charismatic Catholicism focuses strongly on the Holy Spirit, Who is our Advocate, our Guide, and our Inspiration to love Jesus Christ ever more deeply in our whole lives, particularly in the Sacrament of the Altar.

 

[Marnica01]

Well since you asked…
The gifts of the Holy Spirit are exactly that, gifts. They cannot be turned on and off at command, they can only be accepted when they come.

The idea that one cannot control the gifts actually contradicts St Paul in 1 Cor 14:32 where he says that the prophet not only can but should control the gifts.

In fact, it is the idea that the gifts cannot be controlled that gives rise to the crazy behavior that Theotokos is describing. People who are in control of themselves and their expression of the gifts would be better behaved.
vz71;4l905574:

When someone does try to force these gifts, they open temselves to demonic attack.

How do you know that? This statement sounds like a rather wild speculation.

 

[The_Theotokos]

And for the record, there is nothing wrong with speaking in tongues–I am skeptical of certain people, but calling a gift from the Holy Spirit “gibberish” seems more dangerous than the ardent love shown to Him by every single Charismatic Catholic that I know.

Hello,

I’m not sure if you’ve read all my posts as this is a very long thread, but I am not calling any gift from the Holy Spirit gibberish. It is my contention that what is manifesting itself as “Tongues” in the modern sense, is not the gift St. Paul talks about.

As for the liturgical abuses you described outside of the Charismatic Movement. I agree, they exist everywhere and so, my opinion is that anything that produces the potential for such abuses needs to be removed, corrected, or better regulated.

I hope that helps clarify my position.

 

[Marnica01]

Suddenly, everyone bursts out into a violent range. People started screaming, knocking people over, my friend got slammed in the head, etc. Of course, to everyone of the Charismatics there, this was a great blessing, as the Holy Spirit was seen as being very active that day.

Anybody can tell a scary story about something they don’t like or understand.

The ancient Romans told stories of Catholic Christians eating human flesh and drinking human blood. Just as the Roman stories of human sacrifice and cannibalism had no bearing on whether the Catholic faith was true, so this story has no bearing on the truth or value of the Charismatic Renewal.

The only questions really worth asking are (1) is the Renewal based on Scripture, (2) does it have its roots in the history and tradition of the Church, and (3) is it approved by the Magesterium. As you already know from many of the posts in this thread, the answer to all three questions is “Yes”.

 

[The_Theotokos]

The only questions really worth asking are (1) is the Renewal based on Scripture, (2) does it have its roots in the history and tradition of the Church, and (3) is it approved by the Magesterium. As you already know from many of the posts in this thread, the answer to all three questions is “Yes”.

On the contrary, my position is that 1) and 2) are absolutely false and 3) is suspect.

 

[Snerticus]

The idea that one cannot control the gifts actually contradicts St Paul in 1 Cor 14:32 where he says that the prophet not only can but should control the gifts.

In fact, it is the idea that the gifts cannot be controlled that gives rise to the crazy behavior that Theotokos is describing. People who are in control of themselves and their expression of the gifts would be better behaved.

My bibles say something different (I have two different versions and both say the same), they say the “spirit” is under our control, not the gift. We can’t control which gift we have, but we can control how we use the gift, through the spirit.

1 Cor 14:32 The prophetic spirit is to be under the prophets’ control,

 

[KephasAugustine]

Hello,

As for the liturgical abuses you described outside of the Charismatic Movement. I agree, they exist everywhere and so, my opinion is that anything that produces the potential for such abuses needs to be removed, corrected, or better regulated.

I hope that helps clarify my position.

Then I’m not sure why you would assert that the Charismatic movement is in any way different from more conventional forms of Mass. That is, if abuses are everywhere, why single out the Charismatic movement as “wrong?” Furthermore, everything produces the potential for abuse. Jesus, in instituting the Sacraments, left them extremely vulnerable to the abuses of weak, stupid humanity…but that doesn’t mean He was wrong to do so. Obviously.

That said, I think we agree about the corrected and regulated point.

Let me also say that there is a very large and unfortunate overemphasis on speaking in tongues. Not only is it not the only gift of the Spirit given to Catholics, but it is one of the lesser gifts! St Paul tells us to pray more for wisdom, discernment, etc…rather than to ability to speak in tongues. And though I disagree with you and do believe it to be what St Paul refers to in his letters, I agree that this overemphasis has led many a well-intentioned but misguided and unfortunate Catholic to make himself or herself vulnerable to evil.

Yours.

 

[Snerticus]

Let me also say that there is a very large and unfortunate overemphasis on speaking in tongues. Not only is it not the only gift of the Spirit given to Catholics, but it is one of the lesser gifts! St Paul tells us to pray more for wisdom, discernment, etc…rather than to ability to speak in tongues. And though I disagree with you and do believe it to be what St Paul refers to in his letters, I agree that this overemphasis has led many a well-intentioned but misguided and unfortunate Catholic to make himself or herself vulnerable to evil.

Wholeheartedly agree.

 

[The_Theotokos]

Then I’m not sure why you would assert that the Charismatic movement is in any way different from more conventional forms of Mass.

Because the other abuses are not associated with a movement of some kind. They are merely priests and pastors doing a less than stellar job.

That said, I think we agree about the corrected and regulated point.

Good, because that is mostly what I am concerned with.

Let me also say that there is a very large and unfortunate overemphasis on speaking in tongues. Not only is it not the only gift of the Spirit given to Catholics, but it is one of the lesser gifts! St Paul tells us to pray more for wisdom, discernment, etc…rather than to ability to speak in tongues. And though I disagree with you and do believe it to be what St Paul refers to in his letters, I agree that this overemphasis has led many a well-intentioned but misguided and unfortunate Catholic to make himself or herself vulnerable to evil.

Yours.

I agree. This overemphasis is what disturbs me most about the Movement. But personally, I just don’t believe there is enough evidence to support the claim that the Charismatic Renewal Movement’s speaking in tongues is the same as the Pentecost speaking in tongues. My basis for it is that no one alive today can verify what happened back then, the scriptures are vague (in my opinion), the Holy Spirit unites, it doesn’t divide as this behavior does, and scripture says that God is not the author of confusion.

 

[vz71]

It’s funny then, isn’t it? That the Church warns us to the point of condemnation over using things like Tarot Cards, Ouija boards, etc. for fear that these things may open doors to demonic experiences or at least exhibits a failing sense of faith. Yet, it would seem that no one here (or perhaps no one remaining LOL) would disagree that certain Charismatic operations can open this same door to evil.

Technically, everything we can do has an opportunity to open the door to evil.

Among traditionalists that attend the TLM, there is opportunity in pride.
Among the common, there is opportunity in the relaxed nature allowing us to lose sight of the truly important.
In driving to work every day, there is opportunity in anger.

Any activity, when taken to the wrong way has opportunity for evil.

What you speak of here though, Tarot Cards, Ouija boards, etc. have no application that does not lead to evil. They are not the same as a movement within the church.

 

[vz71]

The idea that one cannot control the gifts actually contradicts St Paul in 1 Cor 14:32 where he says that the prophet not only can but should control the gifts.

Indeed. But that is not the same thing as what I am speaking of.
When one speaks in tongues, it is a gift. But that does not mean that you should speak in tongues on command. One does not command God.

How do you know that? This statement sounds like a rather wild speculation.

Simple logic.
Going against the will of God ALWAYS results in opening oneself to attack.

 

[nfabienne]

Theotokos,
Ouji boards all of these occult practices we know these are definitely not from God, that they are messing around with the occult. The true genuine charismatic movement I believe was inspired by the Holy Spirit, the Holy Spirit never inspired reading palms and such. These are self seeking people preying on people weakness of true faith true spirituality that is our souls union with God these seek to break our trust and union with God. Why should we seek gifts from the Holy Spirit ? I believe the bible to be the true inspired word of God, and in the bible we are asked to seek these gifts, God himself through scripture invites us to seek these gifts. Do we fear and not trust that we can know God in spirit. If you are truly close to God in the sacraments prayer and penance do you really think He would lead you astray without defense, by the way if He did isn’t that to see if you have learned anything that He has taught you? I don’t think we always know that it is alright to have a closer spiritual relationship to Jesus. I’m not saying you have to speak in tongues or heal people, just knowing that God is always with us.He’s Not only in the church at Mass when receiving the sacraments, Jesus doesn’t want to be left in the church after Mass. He wants to be shared through our lives. Sometimes it’s just sharing a kind word encouraging someone to keep the faith that is the gift of counsel. I am sorry I tend to go on and on I have trouble with short answers I guess, Why should we not test the spirits Should we not exercise our faith not put to use discernment & prayer. Should God just eradicate every evil thing so WE don’t have to make any choices nor decisions. No He tells us it is a spiritual battle that we need to fight.
The Armor of God
10Finally, be strong in the Lord and in his mighty power. 11Put on the full armor of God so that you can take your stand against the devil’s schemes. 12For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the powers of this dark world and against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly realms. 13Therefore put on the full armor of God, so that when the day of evil comes, you may be able to stand your ground, and after you have done everything, to stand. 14Stand firm then, with the belt of truth buckled around your waist, with the breastplate of righteousness in place, 15and with your feet fitted with the readiness that comes from the gospel of peace. 16In addition to all this, take up the shield of faith, with which you can extinguish all the flaming arrows of the evil one. 17Take the helmet of salvation and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God. 18And pray in the Spirit on all occasions with all kinds of prayers and requests. With this in mind, be alert and always keep on praying for all the saints.19Pray also for me, that whenever I open my mouth, words may be given me so that I will fearlessly make known the mystery of the gospel, 20for which I am an ambassador in chains. Pray that I may declare it fearlessly, as I should.

I believe that when this movement is led by those who are self seeking and putting themselves and their own feelings before God then it is a false group. Then they may be led by the devil but you know what I have been told by a priest that the devil can even lead prayer so should I not pray, no I should put on Gods armor and being fully suited that is really in His presence then I should trust where He takes me.
18I thank God that I speak in tongues more than all of you. 19But in the church I would rather speak five intelligible words to instruct others than ten thousand words in a tongue.
20Brothers, stop thinking like children. In regard to evil be infants, but in your thinking be adults. 21In the Law it is written:
“Through men of strange tongues
and through the lips of foreigners
I will speak to this people,
but even then they will not listen to me,”[f] says the Lord.
22Tongues, then, are a sign, not for believers but for unbelievers; prophecy, however, is for believers, not for unbelievers. 23So if the whole church comes together and everyone speaks in tongues, and some who do not understand[g] or some unbelievers come in, will they not say that you are out of your mind? 24But if an unbeliever or someone who does not understand[h]comes in while everybody is prophesying, he will be convinced by all that he is a sinner and will be judged by all, 25and the secrets of his heart will be laid bare. So he will fall down and worship God, exclaiming, “God is really among you!” 1 Corinthians 14; 20-25
The Lord also tells us in James 3; 13 that there is even a form of wisdom that is demonic. Should we not seek good wisdom from God then?
Two Kinds of Wisdom
13Who is wise and understanding among you? Let him show it by his good life, by deeds done in the humility that comes from wisdom. 14But if you harbor bitter envy and selfish ambition in your hearts, do not boast about it or deny the truth. 15Such “wisdom” does not come down from heaven but is earthly, unspiritual, of the devil. 16For where you have envy and selfish ambition, there you find disorder and every evil practice.
17But the wisdom that comes from heaven is first of all pure; then peace-loving, considerate, submissive, full of mercy and good fruit, impartial and sincere. 18Peacemakers who sow in peace raise a harvest of righteousness.
Put on your armor! Test the spirits! why Because God tells us to and He gives us the weapons to fight evil and because we have his promise that He will overcome! His church will overcome! God Bless

 

[KephasAugustine]

Because the other abuses are not associated with a movement of some kind. They are merely priests and pastors doing a less than stellar job.

Good, because that is mostly what I am concerned with.

I agree. This overemphasis is what disturbs me most about the Movement. But personally, I just don’t believe there is enough evidence to support the claim that the Charismatic Renewal Movement’s speaking in tongues is the same as the Pentecost speaking in tongues. My basis for it is that no one alive today can verify what happened back then, the scriptures are vague (in my opinion), the Holy Spirit unites, it doesn’t divide as this behavior does, and scripture says that God is not the author of confusion.

I agree with you to a point–but only to a point. The Holy Spirit does indeed unite–and I have seen many a wayward soul (including my own) be reunited to Christ’s Church through the Charismatic Movement. However, you fail to acknowledge the fact that there is GREAT division over the Novus Ordo and the Traditional Mass. So where exactly is your line?

 

[withwind]

I agree with you to a point–but only to a point. The Holy Spirit does indeed unite–and I have seen many a wayward soul (including my own) be reunited to Christ’s Church through the Charismatic Movement.

I am glad the movement has helped you reunited to Christ. I had a conversion of heart at my first retreat 2 1/2 years ago and tonight, I will attend another retreat on Holy Spirit and St Paul. God bless.

 

[cazayoux]

Let me also say that there is a very large and unfortunate overemphasis on speaking in tongues. Not only is it not the only gift of the Spirit given to Catholics, but it is one of the lesser gifts! St Paul tells us to pray more for wisdom, discernment, etc…rather than to ability to speak in tongues.

Exactly my issue with the charismatic catholic community.
The gifts of the Holy Spirit I pray for:
Knowledge
Understanding
Wisdom
Counsel
Fortitude
Reverence
Fear and Awe

These gifts, if received from the Holy Spirit, are for the gain of the church.

I do not see tongues, as expressed in large groups simultaneously experiencing it, as promoting anything other than a personal, manufactured proof that the Holy Spirit is with the individual.

If you say the gain IS for the community, I don’t see how, since everyone that might gain is already in attendance. Better not to have a ‘community’ that is drawing a line within the parish.

michel

 

[The_Theotokos]

Technically, everything we can do has an opportunity to open the door to evil.

Among traditionalists that attend the TLM, there is opportunity in pride.
Among the common, there is opportunity in the relaxed nature allowing us to lose sight of the truly important.
In driving to work every day, there is opportunity in anger.

Any activity, when taken to the wrong way has opportunity for evil.

What you speak of here though, Tarot Cards, Ouija boards, etc. have no application that does not lead to evil. They are not the same as a movement within the church.

I am sure you would find many people, of various walks of life, that could find Tarot Cards and Ouija boards to be harmless entertainment. Parker Brothers even markets its Ouija board as a family night board game. Divination has been used for decades in Jungian Psychology and has many benign insight applications. I could write a thesis on all the good that can come from Ouija Boards and Tarot cards. Perhaps then, they are only a problem when one uses them incorrectly?

 

[The_Theotokos]

I agree with you to a point–but only to a point. The Holy Spirit does indeed unite–and I have seen many a wayward soul (including my own) be reunited to Christ’s Church through the Charismatic Movement. However, you fail to acknowledge the fact that there is GREAT division over the Novus Ordo and the Traditional Mass. So where exactly is your line?

Well, I suppose my line is drawn at the source of the division. The modern sense of speaking in tongues is the sort of thing where some people buy heavily into it and some think it’s fraudulent. The Charismatic Movement itself is also very much a source of controversy. In terms of the ordinary form or extraordinary form of the Mass, the issue here is one of correct expression, but no Catholic in union with the Pope of Rome should deny the reality that both produce a valid Eucharist. The source of the division, then, is not the Mass, but the expression of the Mass. Perhaps, using my logic, one could infer that the Holy Spirit did not inspire the Church’s decision to modify the Mass back at the Second Vatican Counsel, I wouldn’t know. But generally speaking, my concerns about the Charismatic Movement are not quite as related(in the same way) to the controversy over the old and new Mass.

 

[The_Theotokos]

Theotokos,
The true genuine charismatic movement I believe was inspired by the Holy Spirit, the Holy Spirit never inspired reading palms and such.

Herein rests my issue. We don’t have any infallible wisdom that determines that the Charismatic Movement is absolutely from the Holy Spirit. While you think it is, I am hardly as confident. Yet, we both agree on the Eucharist. Thus why I have maintained my position. It’s a relatively new movement in terms of the Church and we are 100% certain that the Catholic Church did not start utilizing these high-energy forms of worship until Protestantism introduced it.

 

[vz71]

I am sure you would find many people, of various walks of life, that could find Tarot Cards and Ouija boards to be harmless entertainment. Parker Brothers even markets its Ouija board as a family night board game. Divination has been used for decades in Jungian Psychology and has many benign insight applications. I could write a thesis on all the good that can come from Ouija Boards and Tarot cards. Perhaps then, they are only a problem when one uses them incorrectly?

Just because someone or some group does not find anything more then entertainment in it does not mean it is not wrong.

The practices of which you speak go directly against Christian Morality.

 

[vz71]

we are 100% certain that the Catholic Church did not start utilizing these high-energy forms of worship until Protestantism introduced it.

I’m not.