Catholic Charismatic Renewal

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aloneinjax said:
I do read the bible and do believe it was inspired by God. I just don’t believe in tongues. Never has the Catholic church went that route, so why now? For me, it is purely Penecostal in origin. I am not ‘hating’ on anyone who is Charismatic. I feel we, who do not go for this Charismatic ideal, are the ones being hated on. We aren’t as spiritual nor do we understand prayer as well, etc., etc. Read through the posts. Everyone who is FOR the Charismatic way has explained it that way. It would appear the remainder of Catholics who aren’t into the speaking in tongues, etc. aren’t as Catholic.
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I am truly sorry you feel this way that you are being hated or looked down upon. For me I am not thinking about this one or this way is better than the next. We are all equal God sees us all as equal no one is above the next, if this movement is wrong and i am wrong does He love me any less, or does he want for me to learn from each experience. I am not trying to talk or push anyone into this charismatic way of prayer, I started posting because I had an experience that was positive and just wanted to share my side. We are hopefully all on the same path to Jesus but we each take our own route which He has planned for us. If we all came to Him in the exact same way how would we be exercising our free will. We each pray with our own hearts not one the same as the other. Each made unique by God. He knows where we are and He takes us from there and continues to mold us. Meaning if He wants this movement to draw some closer to Him than let it be. It is not my intent to push people into the charismatic movement, I hope I didn’t come off that way. I was just being honest as to what I experienced and my beliefs about it. If I am wrong that is fine I would rather know the truth than spread false teaching. But my understanding is that the we follow the church but also scripture Do we place the church over God then. Jesus is the head and the church is the body (correct if I am wrong please) I am sorry but speaking in tongues is definitely in the bible, the apostles spoke in tongues by the power of the Holy Spirit. Aren’t we as Catholics called to be apostles to follow Jesus Christ. So why then do you not believe in tongues, should it be left only for bible times? Not all have the same gifts, you probably have many gifts, did you give them to yourself or did God bless you with them? My whole point is don’t put God in a box as to what He is capable of, don’t stifle the Spirit. It seems you are taking the view that The church (the Pope) is wrong and God doesn’t have the ability to bless people with gifts for the building up of His church. I don’t personally speak in tongues nor do I believe you MUST to be christian or holy. but I won’t say God can’t give gifts that He clearly gave in the bible. And my understanding is we are to follow the church. If the church were to declare it wrong, I would not continue to speak of it positively I would take it as a lesson learned. I believe the Church is still being led by the Holy Spirit and that God has not left His church. Nor will He ever. I am saddened you do not trust the Church that you have come home to. ( you mentioned previously your concern with the decision of coming home after many years) I felt that way before coming back myself. but I have learned to respect the church for what she is, Gods people, Gods creation whom He sacrificed His son for. Without that faith in our church where do we stand? Without faith in our Father and divided. I pray that despite our differences there are no hard feelings as I don’t have hard feelings towards any one.🙂 God Bless
 
The_Theotokos said:
What bothers me is that the Charismatics I have encountered in this thread seem to be under the strong impression that the Catholic Church was always into this. We know for a fact that the Charismatic Movement started in the 60’s and 70’s and the Protestant worship styles that we are offended by were never part of the history of the Catholic Church. So where are they getting this false information?
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I agree; they write about it as though it was going on, during Mass, for years. I was a child in the 60’s into the 70’s. I certainly would remember that type of worship.
 
nfabienne said:
I am truly sorry you feel this way that you are being hated or looked down upon. For me I am not thinking about this one or this way is better than the next. We are all equal God sees us all as equal no one is above the next, if this movement is wrong and i am wrong does He love me any less, or does he want for me to learn from each experience. I am not trying to talk or push anyone into this charismatic way of prayer, I started posting because I had an experience that was positive and just wanted to share my side. We are hopefully all on the same path to Jesus but we each take our own route which He has planned for us. If we all came to Him in the exact same way how would we be exercising our free will. We each pray with our own hearts not one the same as the other. Each made unique by God. He knows where we are and He takes us from there and continues to mold us. Meaning if He wants this movement to draw some closer to Him than let it be. It is not my intent to push people into the charismatic movement, I hope I didn’t come off that way. I was just being honest as to what I experienced and my beliefs about it. If I am wrong that is fine I would rather know the truth than spread false teaching. But my understanding is that the we follow the church but also scripture Do we place the church over God then. Jesus is the head and the church is the body (correct if I am wrong please) I am sorry but speaking in tongues is definitely in the bible, the apostles spoke in tongues by the power of the Holy Spirit. Aren’t we as Catholics called to be apostles to follow Jesus Christ. So why then do you not believe in tongues, should it be left only for bible times? Not all have the same gifts, you probably have many gifts, did you give them to yourself or did God bless you with them? My whole point is don’t put God in a box as to what He is capable of, don’t stifle the Spirit. It seems you are taking the view that The church (the Pope) is wrong and God doesn’t have the ability to bless people with gifts for the building up of His church. I don’t personally speak in tongues nor do I believe you MUST to be christian or holy. but I won’t say God can’t give gifts that He clearly gave in the bible. And my understanding is we are to follow the church. If the church were to declare it wrong, I would not continue to speak of it positively I would take it as a lesson learned. I believe the Church is still being led by the Holy Spirit and that God has not left His church. Nor will He ever. I am saddened you do not trust the Church that you have come home to. ( you mentioned previously your concern with the decision of coming home after many years) I felt that way before coming back myself. but I have learned to respect the church for what she is, Gods people, Gods creation whom He sacrificed His son for. Without that faith in our church where do we stand? Without faith in our Father and divided. I pray that despite our differences there are no hard feelings as I don’t have hard feelings towards any one.🙂 God Bless
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If God had given the gift of tongues, I would wager it is to a select few, not a whole congregation. Good point you brought up, re: Jesus is the head of the church, NOT the Pope. He is supposed to lead the Catholic church so, if one is to speak in tongues, it should come from God, NOT the Holy See condoning such practices. I love the Catholic church but I prefer to pray the way I want to and with what I am comfortable with. I find great peace in the old way; I guess I’ll call it that for lack of a better word. If there are those who want to go the Chrismatic way, fine, but I feel the rest of us are being put down when words like ‘better’ and ‘more’ are used in describing what they are getting out of the experience. If that is true, fine, but they should keep that to themselves. If they read it back, they cannot honestly tell me it doesn’t sound like a putdown to the rest of us.

I have no hard feeling toward you. I just find it hard, as the minority here, to get across how it sounds when the Charismatics make it appear they are more ‘spiritual’ then non-Charismatics. I will continue to pray for all of us. I fear this Charismatic movement may cause a schism within the church.

Have a Blessed weekend! :hug3:
 
aloneinjax said:
If God had given the gift of tongues, I would wager it is to a select few, not a whole congregation. Good point you brought up, re: Jesus is the head of the church, NOT the Pope. He is supposed to lead the Catholic church so, if one is to speak in tongues, it should come from God, NOT the Holy See condoning such practices. I love the Catholic church but I prefer to pray the way I want to and with what I am comfortable with. I find great peace in the old way; I guess I’ll call it that for lack of a better word. If there are those who want to go the Chrismatic way, fine, but I feel the rest of us are being put down when words like ‘better’ and ‘more’ are used in describing what they are getting out of the experience. If that is true, fine, but they should keep that to themselves. If they read it back, they cannot honestly tell me it doesn’t sound like a putdown to the rest of us.

I have no hard feeling toward you. I just find it hard, as the minority here, to get across how it sounds when the Charismatics make it appear they are more ‘spiritual’ then non-Charismatics. I will continue to pray for all of us. I fear this Charismatic movement may cause a schism within the church.

Have a Blessed weekend! :hug3:
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From what I have learned no one is any better than any other, all these ways of praying not one of them would make anyone any holier. Only God by His blessings and graces can do this (saints for example) God chooses these people as He may have chosen this movement. I agree only a limited percent probably sincerely have this gift. I can’t fully see how this would cause a schism excuse my ignorance I am young in my learning. Jesus is the head of the church but we do as His children have to respect that He has given us popes to lead the church. So do you mean that traditional Catholics may begin to disagree with the Popes decisions and go there own way? Isn’t this how all other religious denominations came about. People don’t agree with the Church or Pope and so they decide to break from the church and make their own rules. I understand your fears although I think that there are those within this movement who truly are being led by the Holy spirit, and those who may be wrong false teachers being led by there own pride and desires. But I have to say the one being led by the Holy Spirit will overcome the false one. The light shines in the darkness, and the darkness has not overcome it 1 John 5. So don’t be fearful is all I am saying. Pray for those who may be led astray pray the church remain strong in Her teachings For Jesus. And then trust Gods providence.
Maybe I am just young but I do respect traditional Catholicism, my grandmother would if she could probably say be careful but I think she would be happy that I finally made my way back to the Lord. And then trust that God would continue to draw me to Him.
If this group is bringing young people back to the church and Jesus, why condemn it completely I do think we have to be cautious as with anything, but within my own life I have made with Gods help many changes in behavior attitude thinking but most of all in heart in my daily life I know live for Him. Now it wasn’t just the prayer group of course but this was a part of my journey with Jesus. I learned to share and not hide away my heart or any gifts, to not be afraid to speak of my love for Him and share with others that they may come to know Him. I am left to think of it this way we are in a constant struggle against evil. When this movement started in the late 60’s (I was not there my mom was) what other movements were going on at that time wasn’t this the beginning of free love drugs and all that hippi stuff? So if we can clearly see that satan was moving at that time why can’t we clearly see Gods movement to combat that evil. From a priest I know that was teaching at the time in a seminary they were losing men to all this this free love ****, to all this freedom of everything I guess. And the charismatic movement by the power of the Holy Spirit inspired these young men refreshed their true spirit and the numbers increased again. If this movement hadn’t started how many more could have been lost to the so called freedom they were tempted with. I see God in that time He was saying I offer more than these drugs and false freedom. He was showing us His glory His might and power. God Bless
 
The_Theotokos said:
What bothers me is that the Charismatics I have encountered in this thread seem to be under the strong impression that the Catholic Church was always into this. We know for a fact that the Charismatic Movement started in the 60’s and 70’s and the Protestant worship styles that we are offended by were never part of the history of the Catholic Church. So where are they getting this false information?
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Now you are moving the target.

It was you that posited earlier that there were never any charismatic elements involved in worship until recently.
 
vz71 said:
Now you are moving the target.

It was you that posited earlier that there were never any charismatic elements involved in worship until recently.
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I think you are playing games with me now. But to once again clarify, to me, a Church that has 2,000 years of history would consider events of the past four decades to be “recent”.
 
vz71 said:
Documentation?

Again, documentation?
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These two sources should prove to you that they are among the oldest Liturgies still in use today. Both are standard eastern liturgies.

oce.catholic.com/index.php?title=Liturgy_of_Saint_Basil

oce.catholic.com/index.php?title=Liturgy_of_Jerusalem

I’m not even going to waste my time finding a source to prove the age of the Tridentine Mass, as the very name derives from the Counsel of Trent in Trent, Italy (1545-1563).

These sources explain that Charismatic Renewal began in 1967.
René Laurentin, Catholic Pentecostalism, (Doubleday & Co. Ltd., 1977) reprinted in Speaking in Tongues: A Guide to Research on Glossalalia, Watson E. Mills, ed. (Grand Rapids: William B. Eerdmans Publishing, 1986), 235.
 
vz71 said:
OK, list them and exactly what it is that runs contrary to Christian Morality.
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I’ve provided this list before and was told that I was being disrespectful for making the observation. Since we have already established the fact that the Mass is a revisiting of the Crucifixion in all complete essence and actuality, there is no place at the Mass for swaying, hand-clapping, fainting, shouting, playing rock-music, etc.

It’s not a party, it’s the Crucifixion of Our Lord with the anticipation of the coming Resurrection.

Does this answer your question?
 
The_Theotokos said:
I think you are playing games with me now. But to once again clarify, to me, a Church that has 2,000 years of history would consider events of the past four decades to be “recent”.
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Again, you are making a huge assumption.
You need to provide evidence that the gifts of the Holy Spirit that those in the charismatic movement speak of were absent before you can claim any of this as “recent”.
 
vz71 said:
No. You have not provided proof that the behavior seen in the charismatic movement has been absent.

You posited that this is all new. So provide the backing.
Proving a form of liturgy does not eliminate the possiblity of a gift of the Holy Spirit appearing.
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I am not talking about genuine gifts of the Holy Spirit. I am talking about Protestant worship styles that are the primary identifying characteristic of Charismatic services (i.e., hand-clapping, dancing, rock-music, juggling acts, entertainment demonstrations). These have never been a part of the old liturgies. If they had, they would be seen as part of the rubric today, and they are not.
 
vz71 said:
Again, you are making a huge assumption.
You need to provide evidence that the gifts of the Holy Spirit that those in the charismatic movement speak of were absent before you can claim any of this as “recent”.
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We are talking about two completely different things. See my last post.
 
The_Theotokos said:
I’ve provided this list before and was told that I was being disrespectful for making the observation. Since we have already established the fact that the Mass is a revisiting of the Crucifixion in all complete essence and actuality, there is no place at the Mass for swaying, hand-clapping, fainting, shouting, playing rock-music, etc.

It’s not a party, it’s the Crucifixion of Our Lord with the anticipation of the coming Resurrection.

Does this answer your question?
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No, I am afraid it does not.

I was hoping for a specific list of practice, and reason it is against Christian morality.

You made the point that it is somehow immoral, I just want to see the specific sins that can be accounted for in it.
 
vz71 said:
No, I am afraid it does not.

I was hoping for a specific list of practice, and reason it is against Christian morality.

You made the point that it is somehow immoral, I just want to see the specific sins that can be accounted for in it.
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I don’t know what you consider morality. But I would find dancing and clapping around the Cross of the dying Jesus to be immoral.
 
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