Catholic Charismatic Renewal

[KephasAugustine]

Exactly my issue with the charismatic catholic community.
The gifts of the Holy Spirit I pray for:
Knowledge
Understanding
Wisdom
Counsel
Fortitude
Reverence
Fear and Awe

These gifts, if received from the Holy Spirit, are for the gain of the church.

That is like saying the 10 Commandments are the only Laws we have to follow. Lists are nice, but the Bible has a lot more laws, and plenty of other gifts that the Holy Spirit can and does give.

I do not see tongues, as expressed in large groups simultaneously experiencing it, as promoting anything other than a personal, manufactured proof that the Holy Spirit is with the individual.

That’s right, actually. 1 Corinthians 14:1-5 states:

“Pursue love, but strive eagerly for the spiritual gifts, above all that you may prophesy. For one who speaks in a tongue does not speak to human beings but to God, for no one listens; he utters mysteries in spirit. On the other hand, one who prophesies does speak to human beings, for their building up, encouragement, and solace. Whoever speaks in a tongue builds himself up, but whoever prophesies builds up the church. Now I should like all of you to speak in tongues, but even more to prophesy. One who prophesies is greater than one who speaks in tongues, unless he interprets, so that the church may be built up.”

Here, for the rest of the context of it: nccbuscc.org/nab/bible/1corinthians/1corinthians14.htm

He says that tongues are good and authentic, and those who pray in tongues should pray also for the ability to interpret. The failure on the part of some Charismatic circles is that they don’t do the latter part, and simply “speak to God…into air” as St Paul puts it. However, he also says that it is good because it is speaking to God and builds up the individual. Go figure–God cares about the individual AND the community.

There are some who say that St Paul was not speaking about those tongues–but if he was not, then why the interpreter? Tongues today are mostly Hebrew, Greek, Aramaic…ancient and Biblical languages (weird, exactly like they would have in New Testament times…). However, they can also be more commonly known languages. For example, a good friend of mine once prophesied in Spanish to a Spanish speaking couple–she speaks next to no Spanish.

If you say the gain IS for the community, I don’t see how, since everyone that might gain is already in attendance. Better not to have a ‘community’ that is drawing a line within the parish.

michel

There is no line except the lines drawn by prejudice. All people are welcome to attend a Charismatic event–so I don’t see your point here. In fact, people speaking in tongues can witness to others and show that there is a Holy Presence in a certain place. It did for me, and my faith was quickly (though not immediately) completely revitalized.

 

[KephasAugustine]

we are 100% certain that the Catholic Church did not start utilizing these high-energy forms of worship until Protestantism introduced it.

Not true.

 

[cazayoux]

Tongues today are mostly Hebrew, Greek, Aramaic…ancient and Biblical languages

Sorry … I simply do not believe this.

michel

 

[KephasAugustine]

Sorry … I simply do not believe this.

michel

Don’t be sorry, you believe what you beleve…but don’t write something off based on ignorance of the circumstances…or in this case, ignorance of the languages.

 

[The_Theotokos]

I’m not.

With all due respect, Vz71. It’s not exactly hidden knowledge that these high-energy behaviors didn’t begin until this century. Additionally, it is evident that the Extraordinary form of the Mass and the Eastern Great Liturgies (the two that go back the furthest) do not utilize such worship methods, nor have they ever.

 

[The_Theotokos]

The practices of which you speak go directly against Christian Morality.

I find many of the Charismatic behaviors to do the same thing.

 

[The_Theotokos]

All people are welcome to attend a Charismatic event–so I don’t see your point here. In fact, people speaking in tongues can witness to others and show that there is a Holy Presence in a certain place. It did for me, and my faith was quickly (though not immediately) completely revitalized.

In all honesty, it did the complete opposite thing to me. It led me to losing faith and took years to gain it back.

 

[The_Theotokos]

Not true.

Everyone keeps telling me that I am wrong about this. So if I am, please prove me wrong. Reference my post: forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=4907688&postcount=365

 

[cazayoux]

Don’t be sorry, you believe what you beleve…but don’t write something off based on ignorance of the circumstances…or in this case, ignorance of the languages.

Let’s not stop at my ignorance.
It’s the same ignorance of the languages for every ‘speaker’ as well, isn’t it. Isn’t that the point.

I think I understand the circumstance.
A bunch of people (that personally need this experience), show up together and they line up to receive this gift.
The gibberish is no discernible language whatsoever.

I believe the individuals are not actually speaking in tongues.
I think they get personal satisfaction in this activity and are not really speaking in tongues.
It’s as if their faith is not strong enough … they need to ‘manufacture’ proof of their piety.

michel

 

[BSHoop96]

Anybody can tell a scary story about something they don’t like or understand.

The ancient Romans told stories of Catholic Christians eating human flesh and drinking human blood. Just as the Roman stories of human sacrifice and cannibalism had no bearing on whether the Catholic faith was true, so this story has no bearing on the truth or value of the Charismatic Renewal.

The only questions really worth asking are (1) is the Renewal based on Scripture, (2) does it have its roots in the history and tradition of the Church, and **(3) is it approved by the Magesterium. **As you already know from many of the posts in this thread, the answer to all three questions is “Yes”.

I think that is precisely part of the discussion here. I serious doubt that the scene described by Theotokos’ is anything close to the Charismatic movement that the Church approved. Just as people went overboard in their vision of the “spirit” of Vatican II, they will do so here. I think that we are talking circles around each other and comparing apples and oranges!

 

[nfabienne]

Herein rests my issue. We don’t have any infallible wisdom that determines that the Charismatic Movement is absolutely from the Holy Spirit. While you think it is, I am hardly as confident. Yet, we both agree on the Eucharist. Thus why I have maintained my position. It’s a relatively new movement in terms of the Church and we are 100% certain that the Catholic Church did not start utilizing these high-energy forms of worship until Protestantism introduced it.

I thought the Last supper was the beginning of our. Church am I wrong? They being those at the Last supper then received the Holy Spirit and spoke in tongues at Pentecost.

But if a protestant did introduce this form of worship, don’t we have to ask ourselves isn’t God still in control. Can’t He take something that may be bad and turn it to be used for His glory?
Wisdom 9; 13 13 For who among men is he that can know the counsel of God? or who can think what the will of God is?
14 For the thoughts of mortal men are fearful, and our counsels uncertain./COLOR]
:blush:This is how I feel, I don’t know for “certain” anything of Gods will only He knows, but I do my best to do His will and I thought defending something that deepened my relationship with Him and the church was something I should do for His glory. But now I feel I should step back I have said what I feel. God Bless:blush:

 

[The_Theotokos]

I thought the Last supper was the beginning of our. Church am I wrong? They being those at the Last supper then received the Holy Spirit and spoke in tongues at Pentecost.

But if a protestant did introduce this form of worship, don’t we have to ask ourselves isn’t God still in control. Can’t He take something that may be bad and turn it to be used for His glory?
Wisdom 9; 13 13 For who among men is he that can know the counsel of God? or who can think what the will of God is?
14 For the thoughts of mortal men are fearful, and our counsels uncertain./COLOR]
:blush:This is how I feel, I don’t know for “certain” anything of Gods will only He knows, but I do my best to do His will and I thought defending something that deepened my relationship with Him and the church was something I should do for His glory. But now I feel I should step back I have said what I feel. God Bless:blush:

No, please continue the discussion. Don’t feel as though you need to step back. I have no hard feelings at all. I only take issue with the style of worship Charismatic Churches engage in and its effect on the Liturgy, which is very Protestant in style and does not reflect traditional Catholicism. Additionally, I am very suspicious of tongues and prophesy, mostly because I have a problem with personal revelation and its implications. But please, you have every right to defend your position and I welcome your insights.

 

[aloneinjax]

Then I’m not sure why you would assert that the Charismatic movement is in any way different from more conventional forms of Mass. That is, if abuses are everywhere, why single out the Charismatic movement as “wrong?” Furthermore, everything produces the potential for abuse. Jesus, in instituting the Sacraments, left them extremely vulnerable to the abuses of weak, stupid humanity…but that doesn’t mean He was wrong to do so. Obviously.

That said, I think we agree about the corrected and regulated point.

Let me also say that there is a very large and unfortunate overemphasis on speaking in tongues. Not only is it not the only gift of the Spirit given to Catholics, but it is one of the lesser gifts! St Paul tells us to pray more for wisdom, discernment, etc…rather than to ability to speak in tongues. And though I disagree with you and do believe it to be what St Paul refers to in his letters, I agree that this overemphasis has led many a well-intentioned but misguided and unfortunate Catholic to make himself or herself vulnerable to evil.

Yours.

I have been reading through all the posts and I still find the Charismatic movement hogwash. I mean no disrespect. As a cradle Catholic, I have some very different views on this movement than what is written here. I have read and agree with how we were told the use of Tarot cards, the Oui Ji Board, Psychics, etc. only allowed a greater chance for evil to enter our lives or, even us, as a person. This speaking in tongues and fainting, crying and moaning sounds like a dramatic Broadway production. Are the people trying to convince themselves, others, the clergy, or God? Doesn’t this allow evil to come to those who really don’t have the gift and, I still do NOT believe there is such a gift, enter them without them even realizing what is going on? To be frank, I am very, very upset that this is going on within the Catholic church and, worse, that the Holy See condones it. It took me a long time to find my way back to the church and hearing this makes me want to search for another place to worship. I feel like it is being shoved down our throats with the enthusiatic posts and the words, ‘more’, ‘better’, ‘holier’. Does that mean I am no longer good enough to worship in a Catholic church? Whatever! :tsktsk:

 

[cazayoux]

To be frank, I am very, very upset that this is going on within the Catholic church and, worse, that the Holy See condones it. It took me a long time to find my way back to the church and hearing this makes me want to search for another place to worship. I feel like it is being shoved down our throats with the enthusiatic posts and the words, ‘more’, ‘better’, ‘holier’. Does that mean I am no longer good enough to worship in a Catholic church? Whatever! :tsktsk:

I know where truth is … and it’s in the Catholic Church.
I would never leave the sacraments.

I do not see these enthusiastic individuals *capable *of shoving down my throat, what I consider to be ‘hogwash’.
All of the ‘benefits’ they claim come from the charismatic movements (parish involvement, deeper spirituality), I see in my parish from non-charismatics.
Please don’t think their way is the only way to the benefits they brag about.
It is absolutely not the only way.
While they may write a book called “Catholic is not enough”, mine would be “My Catholic Cup Runneth Over”.

michel

 

[aloneinjax]

I know where truth is … and it’s in the Catholic Church.
I would never leave the sacraments.

I do not see these enthusiastic individuals *capable *of shoving down my throat, what I consider to be ‘hogwash’.
All of the ‘benefits’ they claim come from the charismatic movements (parish involvement, deeper spirituality), I see in my parish from non-charismatics.
Please don’t think their way is the only way to the benefits they brag about.
It is absolutely not the only way.
While they may write a book called “Catholic is not enough”, mine would be “My Catholic Cup Runneth Over”.

michel

Sorry for the ‘hogwash’ comment. I was referring to this new-fangled way of worshiping. I, too, get plenty of spirituality from regular Mass. I enjoy the time-honored traditions that have been within the Catholic church for years. I feel a peace wash over me when I walk into the door and Bless myself. The quiet prayer has always been a great comfort to me. Your saying they ‘brag’ is an excellent definition of what, I feel, all those involved in the Charismatic movement are doing. I like what the title of your book would be and I would definitely read it.

 

[nfabienne]

I’m sorry, I stepped back when I felt I was arguing more for myself than for the Lord . I know what I experienced and would never brag about it. I only want to share, I find it hurtful maybe I am just too sensitive, but no one can judge my heart nor my intentions other than God. I too feel at peace in His house, the catholic church and in prayer I feel I am with my loving Father. I just want to share that I just feel a bit offended, but I know in my heart I have done nothing wrong. So I am sorry you feel this way and I hope you can understand not everyone involved in the charismatic are harmful people. I have to take a step back because I feel I have shared my feelings thoroughly and I understand that we all don’t need to agree we each have our own respected views and opinions, I would just like to leave it at that, I am not a theologian nor very strong in catechism, but in my love for Jesus I am strong, and in sharing honestly what I feel I am strong but only because I draw my strength from Him. I can’t see how I am speaking for His glory any longer in this discussion so God Bless and talk to you in another thread I 'm sure. God Bless N.Fabienne

 

[nfabienne]

I have been reading through all the posts and I still find the Charismatic movement hogwash. I mean no disrespect. As a cradle Catholic, I have some very different views on this movement than what is written here. I have read and agree with how we were told the use of Tarot cards, the Oui Ji Board, Psychics, etc. only allowed a greater chance for evil to enter our lives or, even us, as a person. This speaking in tongues and fainting, crying and moaning sounds like a dramatic Broadway production. Are the people trying to convince themselves, others, the clergy, or God? Doesn’t this allow evil to come to those who really don’t have the gift and, I still do NOT believe there is such a gift, enter them without them even realizing what is going on? To be frank, I am very, very upset that this is going on within the Catholic church and, worse, that the Holy See condones it. It took me a long time to find my way back to the church and hearing this makes me want to search for another place to worship. I feel like it is being shoved down our throats with the enthusiatic posts and the words, ‘more’, ‘better’, ‘holier’. Does that mean I am no longer good enough to worship in a Catholic church? Whatever! :tsktsk:

I really wanted to just leave this thread but can I ask you if you read the bible? Do you believe it to be the inspired word of God? The Gifts of the Holy Spirit are spoken of numerous times in the bible and yes I have catholic bible. Sure there are those who falsely claim them, just as some falsely receive the sacraments. I am not saying you need to be charismatic but don’t hate on anyone who is. Some people sing out loud to the Lord, some like to pray quietly, some like to sit in front at Mass, some sit in the back, some pray in tongues, some despise it, I think all that matters is that they do it for God! If not let God be there judge. No one is any better than the next we are all sinners. God Bless

 

[aloneinjax]

I really wanted to just leave this thread but can I ask you if you read the bible? Do you believe it to be the inspired word of God? The Gifts of the Holy Spirit are spoken of numerous times in the bible and yes I have catholic bible. Sure there are those who falsely claim them, just as some falsely receive the sacraments. I am not saying you need to be charismatic but don’t hate on anyone who is. Some people sing out loud to the Lord, some like to pray quietly, some like to sit in front at Mass, some sit in the back, some pray in tongues, some despise it, I think all that matters is that they do it for God! If not let God be there judge. No one is any better than the next we are all sinners. God Bless

I do read the bible and do believe it was inspired by God. I just don’t believe in tongues. Never has the Catholic church went that route, so why now? For me, it is purely Penecostal in origin. I am not ‘hating’ on anyone who is Charismatic. I feel we, who do not go for this Charismatic ideal, are the ones being hated on. We aren’t as spiritual nor do we understand prayer as well, etc., etc. Read through the posts. Everyone who is FOR the Charismatic way has explained it that way. It would appear the remainder of Catholics who aren’t into the speaking in tongues, etc. aren’t as Catholic.

 

[The_Theotokos]

I do read the bible and do believe it was inspired by God. I just don’t believe in tongues. Never has the Catholic church went that route, so why now? For me, it is purely Penecostal in origin.

What bothers me is that the Charismatics I have encountered in this thread seem to be under the strong impression that the Catholic Church was always into this. We know for a fact that the Charismatic Movement started in the 60’s and 70’s and the Protestant worship styles that we are offended by were never part of the history of the Catholic Church. So where are they getting this false information?

 

[BSHoop96]

I have been reading through all the posts and I still find the Charismatic movement hogwash. I mean no disrespect. As a cradle Catholic, I have some very different views on this movement than what is written here. I have read and agree with how we were told the use of Tarot cards, the Oui Ji Board, Psychics, etc. only allowed a greater chance for evil to enter our lives or, even us, as a person. This speaking in tongues and fainting, crying and moaning sounds like a dramatic Broadway production. Are the people trying to convince themselves, others, the clergy, or God? Doesn’t this allow evil to come to those who really don’t have the gift and, I still do NOT believe there is such a gift, enter them without them even realizing what is going on? To be frank, I am very, very upset that this is going on within the Catholic church and, worse, that the Holy See condones it. It took me a long time to find my way back to the church and hearing this makes me want to search for another place to worship. I feel like it is being shoved down our throats with the enthusiatic posts and the words, ‘more’, ‘better’, ‘holier’. Does that mean I am no longer good enough to worship in a Catholic church? Whatever! :tsktsk:

Aloneinjax…I think as previously mentioned, what the Church has condoned is “not people making a Broadway production” out of it. The worst thing you can do is be driven out by others. Please don’t be disheartened.