T
The_Theotokos
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Please explain what you mean by that.
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Then it can be said that I am not mistaken at all.It was no doubt a precursor to what was to come the next day. Probably in line with the timelessness of God. And yes, I do believe the sacrifice was present then as it is now.
Knowing well the sacrifice present at the last supper, I can readily state as I did without error.
However, you would also be correct in your statement of the crucifixion as it is the sacrifice (present at the supper).
Given the differing points of view, is it possible that what you see as irreverence for the Eucharist is really not?
Odd ways of praising God may be odd, but does that also necessitate they be incorrect?
T
The_Theotokos
Guest
I can accept the idea that the Movement officially doesn’t support or encourage such behavior. It just seems that many of the adherents (clergy included) tend to feel that they can break the rules for some reason.I have seen such, and I quite agree that those abuses should be stopped.
I was just unaware that the Charismatic Movement was responsible for them.
In fact, the last time I watched a blatent abuse of the liturgy, there were ‘interprative dancers’ writhing around on stage as well as a procession led by a female holding a massive smoldering bowl of incense (or perhaps the GIRM).
But I did not see anything that remotely reflected what the Charismatic Movement lays claim to.
C
cazayoux
Guest
Amen!This is why I don’t feel the Mass is an appropriate time for contemporary charismatic behavior. Intrinsically, the Mass IS the crucifixion.
T
The_Theotokos
Guest
The Gospels are quite clear that the mood at the Last Supper was somber as well. But no, theologically, the Mass is not the Last Supper, it is the crucifixion as instituted by the Last Supper, of which the Last Supper was a part.Then it can be said that I am not mistaken at all.
Knowing well the sacrifice present at the last supper, I can readily state as I did without error.
However, you would also be correct in your statement of the crucifixion as it is the sacrifice (present at the supper).
Given the differing points of view, is it possible that what you see as irreverence for the Eucharist is really not?
Odd ways of praising God may be odd, but does that also necessitate they be incorrect?
Mine to.Honestly, I want to believe that the movement is founded on the authenticity of the second (I really, in my heart, do), but I have yet to be convinced that it is. I do believe that a select few in today’s world may indeed have the Biblical charisms of the Spirit, but I do not believe that we would ever know about them. The only fruit that I believe we can trust, is humility. My experience has found it lacking in the Charismatic Movement.
But I do not see it as reason to reject what the founding of it actually is.
This was addressed for me at a Mass I went to some time ago.For example, Padre Pio went to great lengths to hide his stigmata. Eventually, it was made known (I don’t remember how), but many came to the Mass he would serve, not for the sacrament, but to see the man with the gift. This was the last thing that he would have ever wanted. I believe, in the end, he stopped serving public Mass altogether so as to not perpetuate a stage show.
There was singing, dancing, tongues, etc…
And every bit of it stopped abruptly when the homily ended and did not pick back up until the Tabernacle was closed.
It was made very obvious to me what was considered important over everything else.
Perhaps that is why my view is the way it is. The first experience I had with Charismatic anything outside of a protestant church was that Mass.
Or rather, the last supper was the first Mass.The Gospels are quite clear that the mood at the Last Supper was somber as well. But no, theologically, the Mass is not the Last Supper, it is the crucifixion as instituted by the Last Supper, of which the Last Supper was a part.
T
The_Theotokos
Guest
Yes, this is true, but it would have been meaningless had Christ chosen not to follow through with the Passion. So in a sense, it was the first Mass, but it was also incomplete up until that point, unlike how it is today.Or rather, the last supper was the first Mass.
Fair enough.I can accept the idea that the Movement officially doesn’t support or encourage such behavior. It just seems that many of the adherents (clergy included) tend to feel that they can break the rules for some reason.
But should we toss out the standard Sunday Mass for all of the abuses that happen by the people in it?
How about the TLM? I don’t know enough to know an abuse if I saw it but from some of the adherents to it, and it would seem there is an air of superiority going on.
Perhaps toss out the TLM for the abuses its adherents fall into?
It just does not seem logical to me to toss out a Movement based solely on the bad practices of some of its adherents.
Now if there are doctrinal issues…then it is a whole other ball game.
But as long as the movement falls in line with Rome, I see no difficulty.
T
The_Theotokos
Guest
I can totally respect your answer here. But what I would like to see is an investigation into why the Movement is so predisposed to such abuses. Then, perhaps they could make any corrections as needed, including deciding to keep the Movement or dissolve it.Fair enough.
But should we toss out the standard Sunday Mass for all of the abuses that happen by the people in it?
How about the TLM? I don’t know enough to know an abuse if I saw it but from some of the adherents to it, and it would seem there is an air of superiority going on.
Perhaps toss out the TLM for the abuses its adherents fall into?
It just does not seem logical to me to toss out a Movement based solely on the bad practices of some of its adherents.
Now if there are doctrinal issues…then it is a whole other ball game.
But as long as the movement falls in line with Rome, I see no difficulty.
L
LRH1957
Guest
But these are Catholic, not ecumenical gatherings. So again, what do you make of that?I call it sincere ecumenism.
I am truly trying, in my logical way of thinking, to understand your logic. I haven’t grasped it yet, but I do like your passion for what you believe and hold dear even if we “seem” to disagree or have differing views. There I go again, we are each unique, wonderful creations of God. Even unique in the way we think, act, praise, worship, respond or not respond to God’s call, etc. I am starting to like your uniqueness! I am sure I can continue to appreciate what I discern God’s call is for me and more deeply understand how you experience His call.
M
Marnica01
Guest
Yes, the Gospels do present the Last Supper that way, but keep in mind why the mood is somber… because the Crucifixion lays straight ahead.The Gospels are quite clear that the mood at the Last Supper was somber as well. But no, theologically, the Mass is not the Last Supper, it is the crucifixion as instituted by the Last Supper, of which the Last Supper was a part.
But when we celebrate the Mass, we do so in light of the Resurrection. We are not mourning Christ’s death, we are celebrating his triumph and Resurrection as St Paul makes clear in I Cor 15:14-17.
We are in fact a Resurrection people, participants in a New Creation that has already begun (2:Cor 5:17), of which the Holy Spirit is our guarantee (2 Cor 1:21-22; Eph 1:13). So for us, the Mass is joyous as we join with our high priest (Jesus) who offers himself for us on the heavenly altar once for all (Hebrews 10:11-14).
While some Masses should be somber (Ash Wednesday or a funeral Mass, for example), there is no reason for every Mass to be so. In fact, there is every reason for the opposite!
T
The_Theotokos
Guest
LOL You are sort of growing on me too.But these are Catholic, not ecumenical gatherings. So again, what do you make of that?
I am truly trying, in my logical way of thinking, to understand your logic. I haven’t grasped it yet, but I do like your passion for what you believe and hold dear even if we “seem” to disagree or have differing views. There I go again, we are each unique, wonderful creations of God. Even unique in the way we think, act, praise, worship, respond or not respond to God’s call, etc. I am starting to like your uniqueness! I am sure I can continue to appreciate what I discern God’s call is for me and more deeply understand how you experience His call.
To answer your question. My logic is based upon my conviction that the Charismatic Renewal Movement belongs in Protestantism. My hunch is that the Papacy supports it with the idea that it makes Catholicism accessible to Protestants. Unfortunately, I doubt the Papacy is aware of how this Movement is Protestantizing the Catholic Church, particularly for those who don’t need or enjoy the Protestant vibe.
It’s new and different and people do not necessarily see an abuse for what it is.I can totally respect your answer here. But what I would like to see is an investigation into why the Movement is so predisposed to such abuses. Then, perhaps they could make any corrections as needed, including deciding to keep the Movement or dissolve it.
Like my own experience with the TLM, I wouldn’t know an abuse in the liturgy if I saw it. I simply do not know enough about what should be going on nor do I know enough about what is going on to make the determination.
People may well hide in this cloak of ignorance to try and change the Mass to what they want.
I suspect this will disipate once enough knowledge of what is and what should be is put out there.
Until that time comes, there is plenty of need for harsh skeptics to keep laying out charges to be answered for. Eventually the false faced people that seem so numerous will fall away and yield to the truly sincere in the Movement.
At that point I suspect the skeptics themselves will be leading the charge to join.
L
LRH1957
Guest
Well said.Yes, the Gospels do present the Last Supper that way, but keep in mind why the mood is somber… because the Crucifixion lays straight ahead.
But when we celebrate the Mass, we do so in light of the Resurrection. We are not mourning Christ’s death, we are celebrating his triumph and Resurrection as St Paul makes clear in I Cor 15:14-17.
We are in fact a Resurrection people, participants in a New Creation that has already begun (2:Cor 5:17), of which the Holy Spirit is our guarantee (2 Cor 1:21-22; Eph 1:13). So for us, the Mass is joyous as we join with our high priest (Jesus) who offers himself for us on the heavenly altar once for all (Hebrews 10:11-14).
While some Masses should be somber (Ash Wednesday or a funeral Mass, for example), there is no reason for every Mass to be so. In fact, there is every reason for the opposite!
T
The_Theotokos
Guest
This theology is not entirely correct. While there is indeed an anticipation for the coming Resurrection, it is to be no more anticipated than when the crucifixion first happened on the wood of the Cross. The Mass is not the Resurrection, it is the Crucifixion in anticipation of the Resurrection. Huge difference.Yes, the Gospels do present the Last Supper that way, but keep in mind why the mood is somber… because the Crucifixion lays straight ahead.
But when we celebrate the Mass, we do so in light of the Resurrection. We are not mourning Christ’s death, we are celebrating his triumph and Resurrection as St Paul makes clear in I Cor 15:14-17.
We are in fact a Resurrection people, participants in a New Creation that has already begun (2:Cor 5:17), of which the Holy Spirit is our guarantee (2 Cor 1:21-22; Eph 1:13). So for us, the Mass is joyous as we join with our high priest (Jesus) who offers himself for us on the heavenly altar once for all (Hebrews 10:11-14).
While some Masses should be somber (Ash Wednesday or a funeral Mass, for example), there is no reason for every Mass to be so. In fact, there is every reason for the opposite!
It worked when we made Holy Days out of the pagan celebrations.LOL You are sort of growing on me too.
To answer your question. My logic is based upon my conviction that the Charismatic Renewal Movement belongs in Protestantism. My hunch is that the Papacy supports it with the idea that it makes Catholicism accessible to Protestants. Unfortunately, I doubt the Papacy is aware of how this Movement is Protestantizing the Catholic Church, particularly for those who don’t need or enjoy the Protestant vibe.
But once the task was accomplished, did we dispense with the Holy Day? I suspect the Movement will be around for a while.
T
The_Theotokos
Guest
It worked until the Protestant Reformation. And then, little by little, those decisions came back to bite us in the rear.It worked when we made Holy Days out of the pagan celebrations.
But once the task was accomplished, did we dispense with the Holy Day? I suspect the Movement will be around for a while.
Now, thanks to the Lutheran Movement, we have Jehovah’s Witnesses at our door every week telling us not to worship our Christmas trees and Easter bunnies.
L
LRH1957
Guest
So you DO have a sense of humor. I thought you did in there somewhere. LOLIt worked until the Protestant Reformation. And then, little by little, those decisions came back to bite us in the rear.
Now, thanks to the Lutheran Movement, we have Jehovah’s Witnesses at our door every week telling us not to worship our Christmas trees and Easter bunnies.
T
The_Theotokos
Guest
It’s dry, but it does in fact exist. LOLSo you DO have a sense of humor. I thought you did in there somewhere. LOL
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