Catholic Charismatic Renewal

[LRH1957]

LOL It must be all the extra prayer. Or perhaps we are too hungry to argue with all of our fasting?

You’re killing me! ROFL

 

[aloneinjax]

Thank you so much. Disheartening! That is the word I was looking for in reference to the Pope’s endorsement.

You are quite welcome! Where on earth is the Pope taking info from to say this type of worship is okay?

 

[vz71]

I feel the anomisty in other posts, not just to me but to others who don’t understand nor want to join in, in the Charimsatic movement.

From me??

 

[The_Theotokos]

You are quite welcome! Where on earth is the Pope taking info from to say this type of worship is okay?

This information is unknowable from the Priest level down. Only the Bishops and Cardinals could answer precisely what is going on here. A lot of it might be stemming from presumptions on both sides (the upper clergy and the laity). I think sometimes the Charismatics are reading too much into what the Papacy is saying about the Movement. After all, the Pope once prayed with a large community of Muslims in a Mosque. Should that be taken to mean that Islam is now a rite of the Catholic Church?

 

[Bruno_Schulz]

**Oh, I don’t know what all that correcting and doubting about ways and means of carrying out believe is supposed to be.

It doesn’t help believe nor faith even an inch further to God.
I know a lot of people and organisations – upright Catholics, who quarrel for years on how the Holy Mass is rightly done and the lot.

Of course there are very few who can preach the Gospel correctly, and even less, who know exactly the right procedure of Mass if on the old or the V2 ritus.

Isn’t it far more important to actually believe in God fully. Believe that’s not just hope but knowledge?!

As soon as one KNOWS there IS God, and He is just an arm’s length away as actual and real being existent and the one and only creating God since eternity and in all eternity, what matter then formalities, rules and regulations?!

Isn’t then that old person without any education, who never heard of all we are discussing here – but who knows
GOD IS
as we all pray in the Lords prayer; “Thou ART in these heavens”
isn’t that person much wiser than all our theologically trained who so ever?!

Oh, I know so many, who are engaged in Church so much, and do everything as correct as can be, and they even have an answer on everything.
But:
When it comes to pure faith and believe and nothing but faith and believe and bear testimony to Gods real being, they suddenly are helpless, for they can’t remember the right rule and regulation.
**

 

[The_Theotokos]

**
But:
When it comes to pure faith and believe and nothing but faith and believe and bear testimony to Gods real being, they suddenly are helpless, for they can’t remember the right rule and regulation.
**

One doesn’t have to be either/or. One can, in fact, be both a person of faith and follow correct practice both intellectually and spiritually. Neither condition predisposes one to less faith or less intellect.

 

[aloneinjax]

aloneinjax,

You are not alone in your opinion here. At the current time, the Charismatic Renewal Movement is still the minority, but I fear that may not always be the case in the Church of Rome. Please don’t let anyone here change how you experience God’s Grace. The Charismatic Movement is good at making people feel that they are lacking something. This is how they have become popular, through manipulation of people’s emotions. I am very sorry to those I have insulted by saying this, but I challenge all of them to prove me wrong. I challenge all of them to demonstrate to the rest of us that they have the spirit of James 4:7-10. They seem to forget that we still exist in a fallen world. This is no party and just because God has loved us enough to provide us with salvation, doesn’t mean we now have the right to dismiss the seriousness of our condition. We are sinners and we continue to commit sin, therefore we need to maintain a vigilant spirit of renewal through humility.

But, I can assure you, you won’t find this sort of problem in the Melkite Church. Not in a million years! Don’t get me wrong. I love the Latin Rite, but this Protestantizing needs to go.

I am certainly glad it is still the minority. As you said, it probably will become bigger with more people as time goes on. We do committ sins, constantly and ask for forgiveness, via confession. I felt wonderful in the manner in which I worship. I feel no need for jumping up and down, fainting and/or speaking in tongues which means nothing to me. If I don’t even know what I am saying and going along with the status quo, what good am I doing myself and what honor am I showing our Father in Heaven? I am reading about your chuch in between answering posts.

 

[aloneinjax]

From me??

To a certain extent. I may be reading into things incorrectly and, if so, I apologize. I just feel that all who are involved in the Charismatic way of praying look down on us who have not felt the ‘Spirit move us’ as you say. I also feel we are talking about two different ‘Catholic’ churches here. If there are those, like me, who are dead set against it, why don’t the Charismatic churches branch off on their own?

 

[aloneinjax]

Some in this thread have even stated that it’s not enough.

I see that. I have read through more posts and, yes, that seems to be the overall gist of this thread.

 

[LRH1957]

To a certain extent. I may be reading into things incorrectly and, if so, I apologize. I just feel that all who are involved in the Charismatic way of praying look down on us who have not felt the ‘Spirit move us’ as you say. I also feel we are talking about two different ‘Catholic’ churches here. If there are those, like me, who are dead set against it, why don’t the Charismatic churches branch off on their own?

Hello Alone! Well you are not alone. We are all in the same family, blood relatives by the blood of Jesus!

Why should we split off when the we are doing exactly what the church leaders ask us to? I’m not speaking about any problems or issues, I’m speaking about what they are asking and encouraging us to do in the other posts. Did you read them?

I am not saying you have to do any of this. It is your choice, no pressure. It is you who are saying we should leave.

Here is a question that I ask an honest answer for:

Do you see anything wrong with this list:

The discernment of the Church is that those involved in the Charismatic Renewal are seen to have:

a greater awareness of the presence and activity of the Holy Spirit
a deeper commitment to Jesus Christ
a desire to live the Christian calling more fully
an appreciation and acceptance of the charismatic gifts
an increasing desire to read the Scriptures
love of Eucharist
a commitment to prayer
a thirst for personal holiness
new forms of community life
a commitment to apostolic activity
a willingness to witness to their faith and to evangelize
a love for one another
a faithfulness to the Church
a desire to serve the local Church, to bloom where they have been planted

Of course there are looney tunes in any group or activity that need to be corrected. But of the above list, do you see anything wrong?

Thanks for your answer in advance. No pressure. Don’t answer if it makes you uncomfortable.

 

[The_Theotokos]

Here is a question that I ask an honest answer for:

Do you see anything wrong with this list:

The discernment of the Church is that those involved in the Charismatic Renewal are seen to have:

a greater awareness of the presence and activity of the Holy Spirit
a deeper commitment to Jesus Christ
a desire to live the Christian calling more fully
an appreciation and acceptance of the charismatic gifts
an increasing desire to read the Scriptures
love of Eucharist
a commitment to prayer
a thirst for personal holiness
new forms of community life
a commitment to apostolic activity
a willingness to witness to their faith and to evangelize
a love for one another
a faithfulness to the Church
a desire to serve the local Church, to bloom where they have been planted

I know this question is directed at alone, but it provokes a few thoughts in my head.

I have a problem with the words “greater” and “deeper” and “more fully”. These adjectives assume that the Charismatic Movement is doing something better than those who have no desire to participate in it.

But more so, I am bothered by the “new forms of community life” aspect. I think here is where the bulk of the problems for the Movement exist.

The other aspects are fine, but I question, how many people in the Movement really exhibit things like faithfulness to the Church as it has existed, prior to all of the Protestant influence.

So let me ask you a question:

If the Church were to allow you to maintain your charismatic beliefs, but prohibit you from practicing such via the use of Protestant behaviors etc. would the members of the Movement A) still show faithfulness to the Catholic Church and B) be content to worship at Mass in an appropriately solemn way, without all of the offensive behaviors we have a problem with?

As always, an honest question.

 

[BSHoop96]

What are your thoughts on the Catholic Charismatic renewal?

My thoughts are that if I wanted to experience charismatic worship I would have become a Pentecostal.

 

[The_Theotokos]

If there are those, like me, who are dead set against it, why don’t the Charismatic churches branch off on their own?

I suspect this will happen soon enough. As LRH indicated, the numbers in the Movement are huge and are growing. Eventually, this will cause a new schism that the Church will have to deal with either by forming a sui iuris Church out of what could become a “Charismatic tradition” or more seriously, lead more of the people like you and me to either the eastern Churches (in union), the Orthodox Churches (not in union), or the Traditionalist branches that are in union. Some might even leave altogether as they become disenchanted with the constant changes and Protestant influences.

All of this will come to a head eventually. As many as there are in support of the Charismatic Movement, I believe there are equally as many (or more) who want their religion left alone. They just don’t have as big a mouth as I do to protest it to those who can change it.

 

[LRH1957]

If the Church were to allow you to maintain your charismatic beliefs, but prohibit you from practicing such via the use of Protestant behaviors etc. would the members of the Movement A) still show faithfulness to the Catholic Church and B) be content to worship at Mass in an appropriately solemn way, without all of the offensive behaviors we have a problem with?

While you aren’t defining what behaviors you are talking about the answer is still simple, I would follow the direction of the church leadership. I used to instruct new prayer group leaders to ALWAYS follow the direction of your pastor even if you don’t agree with it or like it. We are clearly under the authority of the church and would have it no other way.

On the issue of worship, I will also go with the church leadership that allows the beautiful solemn way and the joyful exhuberant way as you have seen from their own participation.

 

[LRH1957]

I have a problem with the words “greater” and “deeper” and “more fully”. These adjectives assume that the Charismatic Movement is doing something better than those who have no desire to participate in it.

I don’t take it that way. I take it as the people who participate experience that. There are also many other ways to experience those things not only via CCR and they also can be wonderful. The Spirit moves in many ways, of course not just CCR. No body HAS to participate.

Many years ago God had His arms around me via a wonderful Catholic charismatic prayer group in my local parish at a time in my life when He knew I needed it. I will be forever grateful to Him for it.

Your paradigm has you reading much more into things than are there I believe.

 

[vz71]

I have a problem with the words “greater” and “deeper” and “more fully”. These adjectives assume that the Charismatic Movement is doing something better than those who have no desire to participate in it.

Or perhaps those that are using this terminology really do not know any better.

They went into the movement with liitle in the way of faith, so everything they experience is ‘greater’ ‘deeper’ etc.

The few charismatics I have spoken with that were worth anything knew better then this, And would never slight anyone else’s experience with God in that way.

Unfortunately they are not the norm.
But there are enough to keep me from dismissing the entire movement.

 

[BSHoop96]

I suspect this will happen soon enough. As LRH indicated, the numbers in the Movement are huge and are growing. Eventually, this will cause a new schism that the Church will have to deal with either by forming a sui iuris Church out of what could become a “Charismatic tradition” or more seriously, lead more of the people like you and me to either the eastern Churches (in union), the Orthodox Churches (not in union), or the Traditionalist branches that are in union. Some might even leave altogether as they become disenchanted with the constant changes and Protestant influences.

All of this will come to a head eventually. As many as there are in support of the Charismatic Movement, I believe there are equally as many (or more) who want their religion left alone. They just don’t have as big a mouth as I do to protest it to those who can change it.

Can you explain this to me please??

 

[The_Theotokos]

Can you explain this to me please??

Of course.

Sui iuris is Latin for “of one’s own laws”. The Eastern Churches in union with the Roman Catholic Church are sui iuris, meaning they are autonomous Churches with their own liturgical tradition and code of cannon law. For example, our priests can be married in the Melkite tradition because our code of cannon law permits it.

My suggestion to the Charismatics is: if they want their own style of worship, leave the Latin rite and seek to form a Charismatic rite. It’s the best solution since there is little chance the Roman Catholic Church will suppress the Movement.

 

[The_Theotokos]

Or perhaps those that are using this terminology really do not know any better.

They went into the movement with liitle in the way of faith, so everything they experience is ‘greater’ ‘deeper’ etc.

Excellent point, actually.

 

[The_Theotokos]

I don’t take it that way. I take it as the people who participate experience that.

Isn’t that like saying the same thing though? There exists the idea that whatever these people had before the Movement, became “deeper” or “greater” after becoming involved in it. There remains this idea that those outside the Movement are missing out on greater blessings than they currently have.