Catholic Charismatic Renewal

[vz71]

I am not talking about genuine gifts of the Holy Spirit. I am talking about Protestant worship styles that are the primary identifying characteristic of Charismatic services (i.e., hand-clapping, dancing, rock-music, juggling acts, entertainment demonstrations). These have never been a part of the old liturgies. If they had, they would be seen as part of the rubric today, and they are not.

Again, you are moving the target.
The essence of the Charismatic movement are the gifts of the Holy Spirit.
Every charismatic I speak with readily admits the movement as happening within the past century, but also tells me that all of the charisms were there from the beginning.
You said otherwise.
But when pressed for specifics, redifine your terms to suit.

In actuality, what you have described are not identifying characteristics of the Charismatic movement, they are identifying characteristics of liturgical abuse.
What you describe happens in regular Mass as well as Charismatic.

 

[The_Theotokos]

Again, you are moving the target.
The essence of the Charismatic movement are the gifts of the Holy Spirit.
Every charismatic I speak with readily admits the movement as happening within the past century, but also tells me that all of the charisms were there from the beginning.
You said otherwise.
But when pressed for specifics, redifine your terms to suit.

In actuality, what you have described are not identifying characteristics of the Charismatic movement, they are identifying characteristics of liturgical abuse.
What you describe happens in regular Mass as well as Charismatic.

I never said that it doesn’t happen at regular Masses. I’ve admitted it several times in this thread. But regarding the essence of the Charismatic Movement, you are mincing my words. If what you say is true, that the essence of the Movement is the charismas of the Holy Spirit, in all of their genuine glory, why the Protestant worship style?

This is the third or forth time I have asked that, yet never received an answer.

 

[vz71]

I don’t know what you consider morality. But I would find dancing and clapping around the Cross of the dying Jesus to be immoral.

I’m sure you do.
What sin are they commiting?

 

[The_Theotokos]

I’m sure you do.
What sin are they commiting?

I would say the sin of sacrilege applies (Catechism of the Catholic Church 2120).

Let me say this before we take this discussion any further…

If the Charismatic Movement could operate outside of the realm of Protestant methodology, I wouldn’t even be having this discussion, I would simply dismiss it like an extreme cult to the Shroud of Turin.

 

[vz71]

why the Protestant worship style?

Protestant worship style with an Introductory rite?
With a Penetential Rite?
With the Gloria?
With the First reading, the responsorial psalm, and the second reading?
With the Alleluia and the Gospel?
with the Homily and the profession of faith?
With the prayer of the faithful and the presentation of the gifts?
With the Eucharistic prayer, the Lord’s prayer, and the sign of peace?
With reception of the Precious Body and Blood of Christ?

This sure looks Catholic to me.
Perhaps the manner is unfamiliar, but the liturgical form is all there.
As is also God.

 

[The_Theotokos]

Protestant worship style with an Introductory rite?
With a Penetential Rite?
With the Gloria?
With the First reading, the responsorial psalm, and the second reading?
With the Alleluia and the Gospel?
with the Homily and the profession of faith?
With the prayer of the faithful and the presentation of the gifts?
With the Eucharistic prayer, the Lord’s prayer, and the sign of peace?
With reception of the Precious Body and Blood of Christ?

This sure looks Catholic to me.
Perhaps the manner is unfamiliar, but the liturgical form is all there.
As is also God.

Again, you are mincing my words. This goes back to the comment I made about the older liturgies. The manner is every bit a part of the rubric as is the form.

 

[vz71]

I would say the sin of sacrilege applies (Catechism of the Catholic Church 2120).

OK, here is the quote for any that do not know…

[2120](javascriptpenWindow(‘cr/2120.htm’) *Sacrilege *consists in profaning or treating unworthily the sacraments and other liturgical actions, as well as persons, things, or places consecrated to God. Sacrilege is a grave sin especially when committed against the Eucharist, for in this sacrament the true Body of Christ is made substantially present for us.

So are you speaking of the various liturgical abuses that we see since Vatican II, or are you speaking of the Charismatic Movement?

Remember, they are two entirely different things.

 

[vz71]

Again, you are mincing my words. This goes back to the comment I made about the older liturgies. The manner is every bit a part of the rubric as is the form.

The Mass is valid.
Forms of prayer may be different, but the liturgy is there.

If you have problems identifying it, I am not certain what to tell you.

 

[vz71]

Again, you are mincing my words.

No I am not.
I am asking for extreme precision.

It would appear that a summary judgement of ‘sacrilage’ has been made against an entire movement within the Catholic church.
A judgement made by an individual.
A movement that has the encouragement and approval of Rome.

A judgement of sacrilage against something Rome has approved would appear to be a black eye for Rome at best, rebellion against Rome at worst.So before I will abide with that, I want to be precise in what is and is not being condemned and why.

 

[The_Theotokos]

The Mass is valid.
Forms of prayer may be different, but the liturgy is there.

If you have problems identifying it, I am not certain what to tell you.

It’s remarkably easy to have a valid Mass. Whether or not the valid Mass in question is pleasing to God and demonstrates a spirit of solemn respect as defined by historical tradition, is another story. Should we not strive for both?

 

[The_Theotokos]

No I am not.
I am asking for extreme precision.

It would appear that a summary judgement of ‘sacrilage’ has been made against an entire movement within the Catholic church.
A judgement made by an individual.
A movement that has the encouragement and approval of Rome.

So before I will abide with that, I want to be precise in what is and is not being condemned and why.

You asked me what sin I felt dancing and hand clapping around the Crucifixion constituted. And I gave you my opinion.

As I said before, if the Charismatic Movement didn’t influence the liturgy, I’d have nothing good or bad to publicly say about it.

 

[vz71]

It’s remarkably easy to have a valid Mass.

No, it is not. There are very specific things that are needed in both material and action.

It is these very things that identify the Mass as unique and Catholic.
I find it odd to use descriptors as ‘Protestant’ when speaking of a valid Mass.

 

[vz71]

It would appear that a summary judgement of ‘sacrilage’ has been made against an entire movement within the Catholic church.
A judgement made by an individual.
A movement that has the encouragement and approval of Rome.

A judgement of sacrilage against something Rome has approved would appear to be a black eye for Rome at best, rebellion against Rome at worst.So before I will abide with that, I want to be precise in what is and is not being condemned and why.

You asked me what sin I felt dancing and hand clapping around the Crucifixion constituted. And I gave you my opinion.

As I said before, if the Charismatic Movement didn’t influence the liturgy, I’d have nothing good or bad to publicly say about it.

So are you calling the Charismatic Movement sacrilage?

 

[The_Theotokos]

No, it is not. There are very specific things that are needed in both material and action.

It is these very things that identify the Mass as unique and Catholic.
I find it odd to use descriptors as ‘Protestant’ when speaking of a valid Mass.

I’m not even talking about the validity of the Mass. I’m talking about the behavior of the laity and the clergy’s failure to address it.

 

[vz71]

I’m not even talking about the validity of the Mass. I’m talking about the behavior of the laity and the clergy’s failure to address it.

Right.
So are you speaking of the charismatic movement, or the liturgical abuses that have become so widespread simce VII?
They are seperate items.

 

[The_Theotokos]

So are you calling the Charismatic Movement sacrilage?

It possibly is, but I’m not qualified to make such an assessment on the entire Movement.

I will say that I believe anyone inside or outside the Movement that would do such a thing as to treat the Mass any less then what has been defined by historical tradition to be solemn, is committing the sin of sacrilege.

 

[The_Theotokos]

Right.
So are you speaking of the charismatic movement, or the liturgical abuses that have become so widespread simce VII?
They are seperate items.

Let me ask you a question. Are you trying to tell me that the Movement primarily operates and supports a spirit unknown to Protestant Pentecostal worship services?

 

[phes3]

I have been “catholic” since my childhood like other member of my family , we were the “social catholics” participating only in baptism, weedings,etc, sadly for me, my sister became protestants, one of them try to “save me if I accept and receive Christ”… , thanks to God, what she really did was watering the seed I have inside that need to grow, Now I am a better catholic christian, I go to a charismatic meeting in my Church every week, I din not receive the gift or tongues,or any other …yet. but I feel the Holy Spirit in my daily life since. I also pray the rosary and go to mass every Sunday and receive the Eucharist…, Believe me now I really feel the presence of our Lord, something I never feel before, For some of us, rosary , creed, the Lord Prayer is enough, for other like me, Charismatic is uplifting. We must be Our Lord hands in this world, and love each other ,showing care. not critizising each other. May the good Lord Bless you all

 

[vz71]

Let me ask you a question. Are you trying to tell me that the Movement primarily operates and supports a spirit unknown to Protestant Pentecostal worship services?

I do not know what spirit you are speaking of here.

 

[vz71]

It possibly is, but I’m not qualified to make such an assessment on the entire Movement.

Why is it that when I ask you a specific question about the charismatic movement, you respond to “dancing and hand clapping around the Crucifixion” instead?