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The_Theotokos
Guest
Because my problem with the Charismatic Movement is only related to the Protestantization of the Liturgy. What people do in their own time, out of my site, is hardly any of my business.
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The_Theotokos
Guest
The word “spirit” was a poor choice of words on my part. Let me rephrase the question.
Are you trying to tell me that the Catholic Charismatic Movement primarily operates and supports a unique worship style, unknown to Protestant Pentecostalism?
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aloneinjax
Guest
I do fear the Charismatic movement with cause a schism within the Roman Catholic Church. I love the church and the awesome feeling I have just by being present even in silent prayer. There are many who feel as I do. Yes, this is how different religions came about but, if the Holy See condones this and the church splits, will the Holy See still be the head of all? Even as a Catholic, I have always been ambivalent about the Pope. It was a Pope who decided that Priests should not marry; that didn’t come from the bible. And, the kissing of the Pope’s ring…an honor only God our Father should have. I know; I was brought up with teaching of the Pope, his rulings, etc. The doubts that crept in about him were only as an adult. Now that I have learned he condones the Charismatic movement, I am even more leery. That is how I feel. I can’t help feeling this way. I certainly believe in the teachings of the Catholic church, the sacraments, Holy Days, and, mostly, living in the manner that God would want us to.
It is scary that you mention the Charismatic movement started when free love and drugs were so readily available. How do you know the Charismatic movement wasn’t a ‘cult’ that was started by a select few right within the Catholic church?
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The_Theotokos
Guest
I have found this article to contain accurate information about the Movements origins.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charismatic_movement
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nfabienne
Guest
It is scary that you mention the Charismatic movement started when free love and drugs were so readily available. How do you know the Charismatic movement wasn’t a ‘cult’ that was started by a select few right within the Catholic church?
I know a priest named Father Randall who was involved in this movement when it began I posted in a thread somewhere on here a podcast of him speaking. He was involved from the beginning I am sorry but I can’t write all of the story and fruits that came from his involvement. (Briefly a dying church in the inner city revived, a seminary loosing students revived)and that is really not all of it. Again my mom who is also a catholic raised catholic attended catholic school her whole life goes to mass is in good standing also was part of the prayer groups associated with this. My mom is far from part of any cult movement. Father Randall has written a few books Wisdom instructs Her Children is the one I read and found to be very helpful in my coming back to the church. I understand your concerns and I value your opinions and respect your feelings. I just in my own personal life feel this has been a learning experience, that for me helped me to come closer to the Lord and in doing so I found a new love and respect for the church that as a child and into early adulthood I did not have. And the movement I speak personally of is a once a week prayer meeting for two hours on a Monday night. Not a whole charismatic Mass I agree that would be hard to understand seeing as the Mass is and should remain the same, my argument is that they did worship in this way in the bible when they came together to pray and give thanks. And that I trust God and know that the church will prevail. I understand your feeling on the Pope, I too have questioned certain things but again that is why we have a Pope to follow, Yes Jesus is the head of all but He gave us apostolic succession He told Peter you are the rock upon which I will build my church. What ever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven. All the Popes have come forth from him. Yes there have been Popes that were wrong through out the centuries. But if we don’t have the Pope to guide us if we don’t trust the Vatican counsels who will lead the church under God. So your fear is the Pope is making bad decisions and there will be a great falling away? Are you possibly debating of feeling like the Pope are the anti Christ? Sorry to get way off topic here I tend to do that very often I’m trying my best.
I just get the feeling this goes way beyond the charismatic movement for you and probably for many others too. I hope we can all stay in accord with our one true church. I have to say though these are the same feelings I had that kept me away for many many years, Why would these same feelings that kept me away make you feel like you have made the wrong choice? I was drawn back and you may be being drawn away. I will pray about this, satan is really trying to tear apart our church. I was kept away by these feelings and beliefs these are also the same reasons non believers claim the church is false. I think we need to stop looking for what the church does wrong so much as what it is still doing right, we the body of the church are human we are not perfect the Popes are human they are not perfect priests are not perfect only God is perfection and so we trust in the power of the Holy Spirit to lead the church. I think there will be mistakes and we need to learn from them learn from our history.
From my experience my life before coming back was a complete mess, the way I delt with things the way I handled my family my lack of patience. My whole outlook on life, Everything seemed out of control and it all came to a breaking point for me I was losing it and I called out to God in honest prayer and He answered. I think everything being so out of control was Him pounding on my heart to wake up. I have had a complete turn around and I praise God and thank Him for this every day, I can’t see how this is wrong or that I was led by satan. I give him no credit. He who is in us is stronger than he who is in the world.(
sorry I don’t know where this is in the bible shame on me:shrug
I am sorry to keep dragging this on and on I really just want to stop but I feel compelled to keep on. I will pray about all of this lets please pray for eachother. God Bless and thank you, you have a nice rest of the weekend also
I know a priest named Father Randall who was involved in this movement when it began I posted in a thread somewhere on here a podcast of him speaking. He was involved from the beginning I am sorry but I can’t write all of the story and fruits that came from his involvement. (Briefly a dying church in the inner city revived, a seminary loosing students revived)and that is really not all of it. Again my mom who is also a catholic raised catholic attended catholic school her whole life goes to mass is in good standing also was part of the prayer groups associated with this. My mom is far from part of any cult movement. Father Randall has written a few books Wisdom instructs Her Children is the one I read and found to be very helpful in my coming back to the church. I understand your concerns and I value your opinions and respect your feelings. I just in my own personal life feel this has been a learning experience, that for me helped me to come closer to the Lord and in doing so I found a new love and respect for the church that as a child and into early adulthood I did not have. And the movement I speak personally of is a once a week prayer meeting for two hours on a Monday night. Not a whole charismatic Mass I agree that would be hard to understand seeing as the Mass is and should remain the same, my argument is that they did worship in this way in the bible when they came together to pray and give thanks. And that I trust God and know that the church will prevail. I understand your feeling on the Pope, I too have questioned certain things but again that is why we have a Pope to follow, Yes Jesus is the head of all but He gave us apostolic succession He told Peter you are the rock upon which I will build my church. What ever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven. All the Popes have come forth from him. Yes there have been Popes that were wrong through out the centuries. But if we don’t have the Pope to guide us if we don’t trust the Vatican counsels who will lead the church under God. So your fear is the Pope is making bad decisions and there will be a great falling away? Are you possibly debating of feeling like the Pope are the anti Christ? Sorry to get way off topic here I tend to do that very often I’m trying my best.
I just get the feeling this goes way beyond the charismatic movement for you and probably for many others too. I hope we can all stay in accord with our one true church. I have to say though these are the same feelings I had that kept me away for many many years, Why would these same feelings that kept me away make you feel like you have made the wrong choice? I was drawn back and you may be being drawn away. I will pray about this, satan is really trying to tear apart our church. I was kept away by these feelings and beliefs these are also the same reasons non believers claim the church is false. I think we need to stop looking for what the church does wrong so much as what it is still doing right, we the body of the church are human we are not perfect the Popes are human they are not perfect priests are not perfect only God is perfection and so we trust in the power of the Holy Spirit to lead the church. I think there will be mistakes and we need to learn from them learn from our history.
From my experience my life before coming back was a complete mess, the way I delt with things the way I handled my family my lack of patience. My whole outlook on life, Everything seemed out of control and it all came to a breaking point for me I was losing it and I called out to God in honest prayer and He answered. I think everything being so out of control was Him pounding on my heart to wake up. I have had a complete turn around and I praise God and thank Him for this every day, I can’t see how this is wrong or that I was led by satan. I give him no credit. He who is in us is stronger than he who is in the world.(
sorry I don’t know where this is in the bible shame on me:shrug I am sorry to keep dragging this on and on I really just want to stop but I feel compelled to keep on. I will pray about all of this lets please pray for eachother. God Bless and thank you, you have a nice rest of the weekend also
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aloneinjax
Guest
Thank you for the link. Very interesting in that much of what you have stated about this movement is in the article.
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The_Theotokos
Guest
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aloneinjax
Guest
Wow, great article. I knew I had read something about tongues and interpretation and, there it is, right in the bible. If they are taking Paul’s words, they are totally NOT understanding what he said.
But the argument presented does not apply to the charismatic movement anymore then it would apply to the common form of the Liturgy.
You appear to be taking issue with liturgical abuses and painting them as Charismatic when they really are not.
A valid Mass is unknown to any protestant church.
The validity of the Mass makes all the difference.
Now if you wish to concern yourself with various appearences rather then the validity of the real presence of God, that would be your business. But it would hardly be reason to call the movement sacrilage.
Remember, in the charismatic Mass, all of the rites are there, in place. Along with the Real presence of God.
I found the article absolutely full of the words ‘citation needed’
I do not know how accurate this particular article may be, but I have found wikipedia to be very unreliable in general.
And since there is a ‘citation needed’ I have no means of verifying the statements contained within it.
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The_Theotokos
Guest
Now you are just arguing for the sake of disagreeing with me, which is really fruitless when you think about it. I posted the article because my own research has confirmed what was stated there and if you read the discussion section, you will see that the Charismatic Movement is very much involved in what is written there as well.
And just curious, why no comments on the Orthodoxy link?
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phes3
Guest
Dear Brother and sister in Christ:
The problem answering specially to Theotokos is that you do not believe, You said it!. Let’s stop fighting each other about the way we worship Our Lord,… after Peter and the apostles receive the Holy Spirit, the begin to speak in tongues, healing, and doing what Jesus did before. why are you blind about and did not accept. Is not a pentescostal movement, is not a protestant way to worship, all the catholic carismatic people go for the sacrament of reconciliation, go to church for Sunday mass.receive comunion, ask the intercesion os our mother Mary.pray the rosary, etc, etc, And we are not trying to separte or create a scism like other coments I read also.Some catholics like to chant like the monks, pray in silence like the nuns. I have done the silence pray and also praise the Lord, singing loud both are very uplifting and help me to become a better christian catholic. My son is an altar server , participate more in in teen groups, My daughter is going to receive her 1st Comunion on May 2. this year, we give thanks to the Lord for the daily food, for the shelter we have, the clothes , etc we count our blessings. some other catholics never thought about it, and take things for granted and just go to ask when they have a problem…,and never say thanks if God listen to their prayers. ,and by the way, stop criticizing other christians, the better apologetics we have are ex-protestants,…the thirst for Christ after reading the early fathers, the didache,etc from the Church in the begining , make them feel complete now when they convert to a catholicism and in knowledge of the faith let many catholics behind. And the feel tha that their protestant formation was the first step and very useful as they become catholics
Do not let evil dominate your heart and mind. We have so much work to do as I told you before , we all are the arms and hand of Jesus in this world
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The problem answering specially to Theotokos is that you do not believe, You said it!. Let’s stop fighting each other about the way we worship Our Lord,… after Peter and the apostles receive the Holy Spirit, the begin to speak in tongues, healing, and doing what Jesus did before. why are you blind about and did not accept. Is not a pentescostal movement, is not a protestant way to worship, all the catholic carismatic people go for the sacrament of reconciliation, go to church for Sunday mass.receive comunion, ask the intercesion os our mother Mary.pray the rosary, etc, etc, And we are not trying to separte or create a scism like other coments I read also.Some catholics like to chant like the monks, pray in silence like the nuns. I have done the silence pray and also praise the Lord, singing loud both are very uplifting and help me to become a better christian catholic. My son is an altar server , participate more in in teen groups, My daughter is going to receive her 1st Comunion on May 2. this year, we give thanks to the Lord for the daily food, for the shelter we have, the clothes , etc we count our blessings. some other catholics never thought about it, and take things for granted and just go to ask when they have a problem…,and never say thanks if God listen to their prayers. ,and by the way, stop criticizing other christians, the better apologetics we have are ex-protestants,…the thirst for Christ after reading the early fathers, the didache,etc from the Church in the begining , make them feel complete now when they convert to a catholicism and in knowledge of the faith let many catholics behind. And the feel tha that their protestant formation was the first step and very useful as they become catholics
Do not let evil dominate your heart and mind. We have so much work to do as I told you before , we all are the arms and hand of Jesus in this world
.
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The_Theotokos
Guest
Again, for the second or third time, I am not concerned with the validity of the Mass. You can disagree with me all you want, but I can tell you that the elements that come together to form a valid Mass are rather definitive. My concern is with the respectfulness of such a Mass, if the behavior of the laity reflects the solemnity being celebrated, and if the expression of worship reflects the historical tradition and rubric. The Charismatic Movement is very guilty of making such changes or modifications. If they were just another harmless rosary prayer group, why then the high level of controversy over their activities? Do you think I am the only Catholic in the world that has a problem with this movement? Search the web, my friend.
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The_Theotokos
Guest
I don’t believe in the Charismatic Renewal Movement. I believe in the Charisms of the Holy Spirit. Sorry, they are not the same thing.
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nfabienne
Guest
I just want to share these links to Father Randall speaking on baptism of the spirit and the charismatic movement and the fruits of the Holy Spirit. I received this in an email this morning from a friend in RI that is a member of his prayer group. Please take a look and just listen you don’t have to agree but keep your heart open. God Bless cdn4.libsyn.com/ipadre/randall.john.mp3?nvb=20090308211214&nva=20090309212214&t=08aa9ccfc470e28902d24
or if you are interested please read this mans story and then check the link after hearing his story.ingodscompany2.blogspot.com/
God Bless cdn4.libsyn.com/ipadre/randall.john.mp3?nvb=20090308211214&nva=20090309212214&t=08aa9ccfc470e28902d24or if you are interested please read this mans story and then check the link after hearing his story.ingodscompany2.blogspot.com/
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phes3
Guest
Dear Theotokos:
We believe in that too!!. then you should also said, that you believe in Christ but not in the church…we all are sinners and make mistakes, Is the grace of God that would save us if we act by love following him.
We believe in that too!!. then you should also said, that you believe in Christ but not in the church…we all are sinners and make mistakes, Is the grace of God that would save us if we act by love following him.
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The_Theotokos
Guest
I don’t understand what you mean by that. I should have also said that I believe in Christ but not in the Church? I would like to think that it is self-evident, defending the Church, as I have done, against influences that distort theology, liturgy and practice.Dear Theotokos:
We believe in that too!!. then you should also said, that you believe in Christ but not in the church…we all are sinners and make mistakes, Is the grace of God that would save us if we act by love following him.
While I believe in the Charisms of the Holy Spirit, I do not believe in the way in which the Charismatic Movement expresses it. The Catholicism that I grew up in would never have reduced itself to “performance liturgy”.
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The_Theotokos
Guest
I just want to share these links to Father Randall speaking on baptism of the spirit and the charismatic movement and the fruits of the Holy Spirit. I received this in an email this morning from a friend in RI that is a member of his prayer group. Please take a look and just listen you don’t have to agree but keep your heart open.
or if you are interested please read this mans story and then check the link after hearing his story.ingodscompany2.blogspot.com/
Thank you for the links. Again with all honesty and not the slightest bit of offence meant to you or anyone, but this pod cast was indistinguishable from a Protestant broadcast.
I have a few more questions that I welcome anyone to answer…
- If the Charismatic Movement wishes to defend its position by stating that it reflects the early Church after Pentecost, then why is there such an unhealthy emphasis, almost to the point of obsession, on modern worship forms? Why the Christian rock music? Why must it reflect behavior one would find in a Protestant Church (or a kindergarten)? I have never been to one Eastern Catholic or Orthodox Church where people shout out Alleluias or immerse themselves in highly aggressive expressions of faith (without regard to how offensive this can be to Catholics who prefer to stick with tradition and enjoy a contemplative Mass as Mass was intended to be).
- Is the Charismatic Movement entirely incapable of operating within the scope of solemnity? Example: Can it not represent itself with Gregorian Chants instead of Christian Rock? Can they not maintain composure instead of shouting out? Must they function by drawing attention to themselves as if to say, “Hey, look at me, I was baptized in the Holy Spirit!”
- And as far as I am concerned, the supporting theology surrounding the Sacrament of Confirmation IS Baptism in the Spirit. So, any one that would represent Baptism in the Spirit as some sort of metaphysical, new “agey”, activation of these sacraments is treading dangerous ground in terms of the historical record. So my question is: why does the Charismatic Movement feel a need to add elements to the sacraments that were not originally there in the first place?
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nfabienne
Guest
I have to ask how should we express them should we hide our lamps under the bed or show them shine them from atop the mountain with hopes of sharing Christs love. It does say in the bible tongues are for unbelievers so maybe you don’t need to be so worried about them as you already believe. If they are a gift to draw people to the church than what is wrong with that. We still go to mass we still go to confession. I have since joining with encouragement from others in the group, had my youngest baptized I am going to make my confession, I will be doing all I can to be in good standing with the church but more importantly because I want to do this for God. If God chose this group to help me do all these for him how is that so wrong? And I hope you will at least listen to Father Randall he is far from a cult leader. For thirty years he has been with this movement and many have been brought back to the church you defend. Is it that these people are not worthy to attend our church because they were not brought up in it or they don’t understand the traditions. I learned about these traditions in the prayer meetings and they were more important than judging the person next to me for not properly genuflecting or knowing every word of the prayer perfectly. God knows each of our hearts and takes us a s we are and the molds us but only if we let him. otherwise we may stay on the same portion of our path walking in circles. Clearly branches of this movement bear fruit. God Bless
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