Catholic Charismatic Renewal

[vz71]

So those fruits of the Holy Spirit that you will say come from the movement come from those gifts listed above … not from tongues.
There is NO reason this should be done as a separatist movement away from the parish.
michel

Well, I have stumbled upon a pretty quick way of discerning those that are humble and what should be from those that are just vying for attention.

Ask when the Apostles received the Holy Spirit.
If the tell you Pentocost, they are wrong.
Much earlier in the Gospels, Jesus breathed on the Apostles and commanded them to receive Holy Spirit…and there is no record of odd behavior associated with it.

Those that know this and understand more often then not (in my experience) also are the same ones that are humble, do not seek attention, are non-devisive, and are what most on this thread would refer to as ‘Good Catholic.’

 

[The_Theotokos]

The dangers and falsifications you have spoken of here are by no means unique to the Charismatics within the church.
My own experience has shown more liturgical abuse outside of the movement then within it.

Let me ask you a question. Is the potential to commit a wrong not enough to warrant precautions against such abuse? Shouldn’t a person who has the proclivity to abuse a child (but has never done so) stay away from children? Doesn’t this apply to all sins?

You have had an extraordinary amount of good experiences with this Movement. I have had an extraordinary amount of bad experiences with this group, all over the country, in different churches. You say that these potentials for abuse happen more outside the Movement. So let me reiterate… This does not matter to me, because I feel everything that has the potential for abuse needs to go. If it’s a priest, then remove the priest. It it’s a loop hole in the rubric, then replace the rubric. If it’s the Movement, then remove the Movement. As much as you try to express it as such. The Movement is far more than a simple rosary prayer group. And I see it as very dangerous.

 

[The_Theotokos]

Do you mean speaking in tongues, or ‘gibberish.’

There is a difference. One is insulting, the other not.

Well, I am insulted that this is allowed during the Mass, so I see no problem with addressing a behavior that I find to be liturgically inappropriate, the same way.

But here, I am speaking about the gibberish talk Charismatics seem to confuse with the authentic Gift of Tongues.

 

[The_Theotokos]

No, your experiences highlight well the potential for abuse within the movement.
But since I see these same abuses outside the Charismatic movement, I have reservations painting the entirety of the movement in that light.

Well, see my above comment.

 

[vz71]

Let me ask you a question. Is the potential to commit a wrong not enough to warrant precautions against such abuse? Shouldn’t a person who has the proclivity to abuse a child (but has never done so) stay away from children? Doesn’t this apply to all sins?

I will agree. The potential for abuse warrants extra-ordinary precaution.
But rather then throw out a movement, why not build in some kind of regulation.
Perhaps something to the effect of requiring an oversight of a charismatic groups activities by non-charismatic clergy.

You have had an extraordinary amount of good experiences with this Movement. I have had an extraordinary amount of bad experiences with this group, all over the country, in different churches. You say that these potentials for abuse happen more outside the Movement. So let me reiterate… This does not matter to me, because I feel everything that has the potential for abuse needs to go. If it’s a priest, then remove the priest. It it’s a loop hole in the rubric, then replace the rubric. If it’s the Movement, then remove the Movement. As much as you try to express it as such. The Movement is far more than a simple rosary prayer group. And I see it as very dangerous.

But before hacking away. Perhaps a more precise approach should be made.
Why use an axe when a scalpel works just as well?

 

[cazayoux]

But before hacking away. Perhaps a more precise approach should be made.
Why use an axe when a scalpel works just as well?

Then I will patiently wait to see if the surgery happens and for the outcome.

michel

 

[The_Theotokos]

I will agree. The potential for abuse warrants extra-ordinary precaution.
But rather then throw out a movement, why not build in some kind of regulation.
Perhaps something to the effect of requiring an oversight of a charismatic groups activities by non-charismatic clergy.

I cannot disagree with you about this. This would be a wonderful idea and a good solution, but I cannot get over the idea that a Catholic Movement should not need this much careful attention.

But before hacking away. Perhaps a more precise approach should be made.
Why use an axe when a scalpel works just as well?

I don’t have a problem with this either. Perhaps the Church should formulate an agency that investigates all parishes (Charismatic or otherwise) for abuses and makes corrections as necessary. It sounds a bit big-brotherish, but after 2,000 years, the Church is bound to need some serious reflecting.

 

[vz71]

I don’t have a problem with this either. Perhaps the Church should formulate an agency that investigates all parishes (Charismatic or otherwise) for abuses and makes corrections as necessary. It sounds a bit big-brotherish, but after 2,000 years, the Church is bound to need some serious reflecting.

From you keyboard to God’s ear.

It’s not big-brotherish at all. The church has never been a democracy, and perhaps the church in the United States needs to be reminded of that fact.

 

[The_Theotokos]

From you keyboard to God’s ear.

It’s not big-brotherish at all. The church has never been a democracy, and perhaps the church in the United States needs to be reminded of that fact.

I completely agree with you. The Church in America most certainly needs to remember that fact, even if Americans find it distasteful.

 

[Jerry_Marino]

charismatic renewal when was the catholic church ever charismatic?

 

[The_Theotokos]

charismatic renewal when was the catholic church ever charismatic?

Ever since the late 1960’s. But the Movement will argue that it goes back to Pentecost, even though many of us here deny the claim that what they report relates to the events of Pentecost.

 

[vz71]

Ever since the late 1960’s. But the Movement will argue that it goes back to Pentecost, even though many of us here deny the claim that what they report relates to the events of Pentecost.

Since it is specific traits and actions (tongues not necessarily being one of them) that appear to define the movement; I suppose it could be argued that it goes back further if a Saint can be found to display one or more of the traits.

I have not found one, but I also am not well versed in the lives of all the Saints.

 

[The_Theotokos]

Since it is specific traits and actions (tongues not necessarily being one of them) that appear to define the movement; I suppose it could be argued that it goes back further if a Saint can be found to display one or more of the traits.

I have not found one, but I also am not well versed in the lives of all the Saints.

There is much to suggest, in many of the Hagiographies, that the saints possessed gifts that could be considered to be the Biblical gifts of the Holy Spirit; however, I would not classify this as relating to the Charismatic Movement in anyway. People did not seem to become obsessed with these gifts until the past forty years or so. Prior to that, such exhibitions were received with humility and discreteness.

 

[Jerry_Marino]

charismatic movement whether by catholics or pentecostals, as i see doesn’t fit into chapter 2 of acts. the root of the word is from charisma like i stated on a much earlier post here, president obama is very charismatic would he be defined as part of the movement.

lets look at the definition of charismatic/charisma:
**1. Of, relating to, or characterized by charisma
2. Of, relating to, or being a type of Christianity that emphasizes personal religious experience and divinely inspired powers, as of healing, prophecy, and the gift of tongues.
**
compare it with Holy Scripture

**charismatic - possessing an extraordinary ability to attract; “a charismatic leader”; “a magnetic personality”

pleasing to the eye or mind especially through beauty or charm; “a remarkably attractive young man”; “an attractive personality”; “attractive clothes”; “a book with attractive illustrations”**

as i understand Christianity it is far from attractive.

**charismatic
adjective charming, appealing, attractive, influential, magnetic, enticing, alluring
**

i am not a teacher so i won’t get into charisma, you be the judge. since peter was in the forefront on the day of pentecost, i don’t see him with the characteristics as above. now, if we look at the life Christ as well the people did not follow for the above characteristics, did they?

Jesus answered them and said, "Amen, amen, I say to you, you are looking for me not because you saw signs but because you ate the loaves and were filled. John 6:26

 

[Marnica01]

charismatic renewal when was the catholic church ever charismatic?

If you read Mark 16 and 1 Corinthians 12-14, you will see that the Church was charismatic in the very beginning. Unless you don’t think that was the Church in the first century, which would mean that you agree with the more radical Protestants about when the Catholic Church began.

Actually, the Church was charismatic up through at least the Montanist heresy of the mid-to-late second century, which was characterized by a serious abuse of the gift of Prophecy coupled with a rejection of apostolic authority. The Monatist schism was so bad (it even took Tertullian) that it led to an anti-charismatic reaction in the Church that lasted in varying degrees until the mid-1960’s.

Even after the anti-charismatic reaction to Montanism, some elements of the charismatic nature of the Church continued well into the eighth century. For details, see McDonnel and Montague’s (1990) 368-page book, Christian Initiation and Baptism in the Holy Spirit: Evidence from the First Eight Centuries, available through amazon.com.

 

[Marnica01]

Ask when the Apostles received the Holy Spirit.
If the tell you Pentocost, they are wrong.
Much earlier in the Gospels, Jesus breathed on the Apostles and commanded them to receive Holy Spirit…and there is no record of odd behavior associated with it.

Those that know this and understand more often then not (in my experience) also are the same ones that are humble, do not seek attention, are non-devisive, and are what most on this thread would refer to as ‘Good Catholic.’

A couple of points are in order here.

First, the Gospel of John was written decades after Luke/Acts and should be understood more as a meditation on the meaning of the Gospel than as an historical account. It is as if John said “Look, you know the facts of the Gospel from the Synoptics. Now let me tell you what it all means.” That for example, is why John has the Bread of Life discourse which is not found in the Synoptics, but not the Last Supper scene (“This is my Blood…this is my Body”), which is found in all three Synoptics and 1 Corinthians 11.

Second, the scene in John serves a literary function to connect Jesus’ baptism with his resurrection. In John, the Holy Spirit comes upon Jesus in his baptism, and then Jesus gives the Holy Spirit to his disciples following his Resurrection. If you try to take John literally, then you get a direct contradiction with Luke-Acts. If you take the scene literarily, there is no problem at all but rather a beautiful picture of Jesus completing his mission.

As a result, you can’t use the Gospel of John to draw the sort of historical conclusion that you just made.

 

[Marnica01]

This does not matter to me, because I feel everything that has the potential for abuse needs to go. If it’s a priest, then remove the priest. It it’s a loop hole in the rubric, then replace the rubric. If it’s the Movement, then remove the Movement. As much as you try to express it as such. The Movement is far more than a simple rosary prayer group. And I see it as very dangerous.

Wow! An impassioned plea to throw the baby out with the bath water. I am amazed at you Theotokos! I can understand that you have had some bad experiences and feel driven away from the renewal, but really…to take on what even the Magesterium regards as the work of the Holy Spirit in such fashion!

Consider this. There are more Charismatic Christians in the world than any other type of Christian, and that Charismatic Christians outnumber all other types of Christians combined! While the Renewal seems to have collapsed in some parts of the United States, it is growing and thriving in Africa and Latin America. In Latin America, the Renewal is keeping people in the Church who would otherwise leave in droves for Protestant pentecostal sects.

And to think that you would shut this down if you could.

(You can check all this out for yourself…don’t take my word for it. For just one example, see britannica.com/EBchecked/topic/115240/Christianity/67450/Contemporary-Christianity.)

 

[The_Theotokos]

Wow! An impassioned plea to throw the baby out with the bath water. I am amazed at you Theotokos! I can understand that you have had some bad experiences and feel driven away from the renewal, but really…to take on what even the Magesterium regards as the work of the Holy Spirit in such fashion!

Well, it should suffice to say that I do not share the Magisterium’s enthusiasm for this Movement and willingness to consider it an act of God. I am very sorry, but everything within my inner-most being tells me that this is not the work of the Holy Spirit. And I am not the sort of person one could consider void of a prayer life.

Consider this. There are more Charismatic Christians in the world than any other type of Christian, and that Charismatic Christians outnumber all other types of Christians combined! While the Renewal seems to have collapsed in some parts of the United States, it is growing and thriving in Africa and Latin America. In Latin America, the Renewal is keeping people in the Church who would otherwise leave in droves for Protestant pentecostal sects.

And do you not see the same problem I see with this? The entire situation reeks of a great apostasy. If the sacraments are not enough to keep these people, let them leave in droves and see what sort of salvation those Pentecostal Churches can offer. I trust it would be a great awakening for them, if not in this life, then perhaps in the next.

And to think that you would shut this down if you could.

Yes, because I believe it is doing far more harm than good. This isn’t a personal vendetta against the Movement because I’ve had bad experiences. This is an educated observation, combined with some sensible foresight.

(You can check all this out for yourself…don’t take my word for it. For just one example, see britannica.com/EBchecked/topic/115240/Christianity/67450/Contemporary-Christianity.)

I can take your word for it. I am very well aware of the popularity of the Movement. Ironically, it is this very popularity that has me convinced that God has absolutely nothing to do with the phenomenon the Movement reports

 

[aloneinjax]

The specific issue I have with ‘the movement’ is the speaking in tongues.
I do not believe these people are actually speaking in tongues.
It’s not a ‘gift’ you ‘show up’ for.

I see the individuals using this as proof the Holy Spirit is with them.
I wish their faith was strong enough to not need the proof.
I wish they wouldn’t put on the show.

I see the group-speaking-in-tongues thing as recent, and as others have said, a growth from protestantism.

michel

Amen! You said it well. <> is what I feel about it also. I even went so far as to ask a Protestant friend about it. She told me that, in her church, they no longer speak in tongues. She said according to the bible, if one is speaking in tongues, it should be able to be interpreted by someone there, also worshipping. According to Paul, only a chosen few were given that priviledge. She also said that the way they interpret the speaking in tongues was done only long ago to spread the Word of God. They have a whole different take on this way or worshipping: When Paul and whoever else spoke in tongues, it was the language of those, there at the time of worship, so they could understand. That is the way I have always taken it myself.

Ditto! Why is their Catholic faith not enough? It has been for my entire family for years and years. My great-grandparents came over from Bohemia (Czech Republic) as practicing Catholics. The time-honored traditions of Mass, as I know them from a small child to adult, is enough for me. This fainting, wailing, crying, and stomping, to me, is a ‘show’ in order to ‘prove’ (for whatever reason) that their faith is stronger than the rest of ours.

 

[vz71]

If you take the scene literarily, there is no problem at all but rather a beautiful picture of Jesus completing his mission.

As a result, you can’t use the Gospel of John to draw the sort of historical conclusion that you just made.

Only if you make the assumption that the reception of the Holy Spirit must be accompanied by some sort of sign.