Catholic Charismatic Renewal

[Cecilianus]

Ah, that’s why we have a “prayer” group were we pray fo the infilling of the Spirit-since we are already aware of the the grace given through the sacraments, prayer, good works etc…You speak as if “emotions” were some kind of dirty word.I already know God in my head, spirit but I also want to feel it in my heart-to have that kind of intimate experience that Moses had that made his face radiant.The intimacy of Jesus with His Father.Taking the Eucharist can and should be an intimate experience along with the other sacrament- but are they to the majority of Catholics? To many charismatics they are.For some reason people are under the misconception that we “only” do charismatic “stuff” and they somehow we are not involved in anything else.That’s just stuff and nonsense.We are involved with the sacraments, devotions and everything else"good" catholics are supposed to do.If it weren’t for the Charismatics in my parish- there would be no Eucharistic Adoration,no monstrance-my husband and a few other charismatics pushed for it and donated a monstrance then organized the first Friday…We started cenacles ,and divine mercy novenas-all without anybody knowing we were charismatics- because we did it for the whole church and not just a portion.We never announced or told anyone of our Charismatic affliation-we just did it.I would say the majority of people don’t know that my husband or I are Charismatics.And all this was done without being allowed to have our own little room to pray and fellowship in. We were obedient to our pastor who didn’t care for charsmatics.Several years later our new pastor(though he doesn’t get us) sees us as an asset not a detriment,As people willing to serve without hand-wringing but with joy even under less the ideal circumstances.You might not get grace from a electric guitar but neither do you get it from an organ nor through chant(which is actually one of my favorite kinds of music).

Emotion isn’t a dirty word, it just isn’t sanctifying grace.

 

[Cecilianus]

Actually you’re the one with the"holier than thou" attitude. Bandying about the word “heretic” which comes so trippingly from your tongue, belies that any one not of “your brand” of Catholicism is substandard and heretical.By the way - you have no power to name anything heretical- heresy can only be determined by the church.Your posts are getting shrill and more operatic -no one has said non-charismatics are substandard-but you.No one has said that charismatics are the only ones to have the Holy Spirit-except you.These are creations of your own mind and your own spirit.Your dislike even hatred of charismatics is fairly palpable.Do we not work in the same vineyard?for the same Lord? Do you actually think that the Lord has a hierarchy of love for His children? Do you actually think you know more about what is heretical and what is not then the Church? Why do you think your love of the church is greater ,purer and more worthy then mine? Why do you think that we have anything but love for our fellow Catholics?The demons are of your own making, the heresies of your own creation, your dislikes from your own misunderstanding, your hatred from your own biases
.Man’s view is narrow because it lacks God’s infinite love .God’s infinite love cannot be understood by man because man does not see the heart only the shell. We should all try to emulate God by looking to the heart and not the shell. In His peace, and His Joy.

Protestantism - including the Pentecostal movement - is a heresy. I didn’t determine that. The Catholic Church did, at the Council of Trent. And you have declared that non-charismatics are substandard by virtue of using the term “charismatic”. What if I were to adopt a new spirituality - say, Mormonism - and call it the Catholic Saints movement, and refer to non-members as non-saints? “Charismatic” means “having a gift of the Holy Spirit”. You can’t just call yourself a “charismatic”; you actually have to be given extraordinary graces by God, which are His to give, not that of some movement or whatnot. And you can’t call other people “non-charismatics” because you don’t know that they don’t have the gifts of the Holy Spirit. So if you want to have this kind of spirituality, you have to choose some other name than “charismatic”.

 

[Reuben_J]

Cecilianus:

How do we know that we are releasing the Holy Spirit, though, as if that were even possible (man can’t manipulate God! The only God-given channels of grace are the sacraments.) The Catholic faith teaches that the graces of the Holy Spirit are given through the seven sacraments He gave us and through prayer, fasting, good works, and sacramentals - not through an emotional rise. Grace is not a feeling - it’s a sharing in the divine life of God, a deification through grace. You convey grace through the sacraments, not through the electric guitar.

A few things here.

We cannot manipulate God, whatever that means. We cannot make God does the thing that’s anathema to him.

We can ask God though – ask and you will be given the Holy Spirit …

The Catholic Church does not teach that graces come from ONLY through the Sacraments. Remember the Sacraments are an outward signs of inwards grace. They are major sources of grace by all means but not only confined to them.

Grace is not feeling. We can feel the outcome of the infusing of grace though, sometimes. Like as a kid, I felt my head was light after coming out from the confessional or feeling gay after receiving Holy Communion. It could be emotion but from the teachings of Catechism we know that we are forgiven of our sin when we go for Confession and that our souls are nourished when we receive Communion. And the effect of those things can manifest physically to some of us, to some it may not make a difference.

We cannot entirely separate the emotional and the factual because humans are emotional beings. It is only wrong when we are fully governed by emotion or when we are controlled by emotion and thus unable to differentiate reality and falsehood.

Grace is not conveyed through the electric guitar. I personally have not heard of any Catholics who claim otherwise.

We know that Baptism means nothing in a person life if he/she does not believe in it or make an effort to live it out. In this case the Holy Spirit that one receives through Baptism is useless because he is not allowed to work according to his purpose. Have we not seen Catholics who are indifferent and could not care less about their faith? In effect it should not be so if truly we have the Holy Spirit because he is the power behind our faith. Was not that how he acted upon the apostle during the Pentecost?

And how did the Apostles got the Pentecost (the Descend of the Holy Spirit)? – by praying and asking for it.

The baptism of the Holy Spirit is just a term for lack of better word. The word baptism outside the sacrament can mean a number of things, for example, initiation. Nobody ever confuse it with the Sacrament of Baptism. In practice it is only a prayer to ask the Holy Spirit to come into a person life. That person asks and surrenders himself to the Holy Spirit. That’s all to it.

How do we know that the Holy Spirit is being ‘released’? Again the word ‘release’ is used for lack of better word that would be acceptable to all spectrum of Catholicity. Well, we don’t know for sure that the Holy Spirit is released or not because that is the prerogative of God (the Holy Spirit). We can only take it in faith – his word says we are given if we ask.

There are various effects of this that are noticeable by the recipients. They can be emotional, imagination or real, but there are those who find their lives changed for the better, like new awareness of sins and want to avoid them, increase in faith, prayers, new love for the Sacraments and the Church, which are certainly good things for Catholics. So why is it wrong to thank God for these? We do that even for less.

Cecilianus:

The term “charismatic” implies that other Catholics lack the charisms of the Holy Spirit, and are therefore not even Christian. Sounds like heresy to me too, and all this talk of a separate “Baptism of the Holy Spirit” and the uncritical acceptance of enthusiasm among heretics as being the Holy Spirit’s doing is certainly heresy. Protestants cannot even be saved except through invincible ignorance (no salvation outside the Church!), much less be privileged above 99% of all Catholics by being the only ones to have the Holy Spirit’s charisms!

Not at all. No one implies that other Catholics lack the charisms of the Holy Spirit less of all that they are not even Christians. I hope you are sincere in your ignorance otherwise I am tempted to say that you are most paranoid. As I said earlier it is just the wording that you have problem with. Are you much happier had they used the term Pentecostal?

The charisms of the Holy Spirit are opened to all Catholics, some desire them, some do not know about them, some ask for them, some being indifferent to them and some refuse them. We know for example that the priests are endowed with the charisms of the Holy Spirit by virtue of them being ordained as ministers of God. It is the charism of the Holy Spirit that change bread and wine to the Body and Blood of God during the mass. There are many more Catholics outside the clergies who are endowed with the charisms of the Holy Spirit.

Like the word of God says, if you receive the talents then you must make use of it. There are many Catholics, Charismatics or otherwise, clergies or otherwise, making use of the charisms of the Holy Spirit for the good of the church.

The second part of your post is just a statement and I have no comment to that.

May God bless you, especially in generosity.

 

[Cecilianus]

The baptism of the Holy Spirit is just a term for lack of better word. The word baptism outside the sacrament can mean a number of things, for example, initiation. Nobody ever confuse it with the Sacrament of Baptism. In practice it is only a prayer to ask the Holy Spirit to come into a person life. That person asks and surrenders himself to the Holy Spirit. That’s all to it.

The Pentecostals did confuse it with the sacrament of baptism (because of their denial of sacramental efficacy), and since both the term and the spiritual movement derive their inspiration from the Pentecostals, how am I expected to know that you mean something different without an explanation?

 

[Flame_of_Christ]

The sacraments are the main channel of grace for us. That is not an issue for any charismatic, we all know and believe that. What most people who learn their faith must come to terms with is that the sacraments absolutely require our response to them. When you say a great giant yes to the Holy Spirit in your life and open yourself up to Him, then you will know what the Baptism in the Holy Spirit is all about. The sacrament is God’s action, we must do our part, and that requires faith. So I ask you: Do you know that the Holy Spirit dwells in you and that He wants to empower you to do wonderful works in the Power of the Holy Spirit?

read 1 Corinthians 12 to get an idea of the gifts that the Holy Spirits wants to manifest throughout the whole wide world.

Anyways, you probably won’t listen. But we did tell you.

 

[Reuben_J]

The Pentecostals did confuse it with the sacrament of baptism (because of their denial of sacramental efficacy), and since both the term and the spiritual movement derive their inspiration from the Pentecostals, how am I expected to know that you mean something different without an explanation?

Dear Cecilanus, I am very sorry if I sound rather harsh to you. I do not mean it that way. I am glad you are opened to explanation and I thank God for it. The gist of my intention is to try to let you know that the Catholics Charismatics are our brothers and sisters in Christ, whether we agree with their spirituality or not. They are not opposing the Church, in fact on the contrary nor are they heretics.

My impression is that you come in as very hostile to Catholic posters who try to speak on this subject. I note that one poster earlier on was completely broken down by your reply that she simply quit the forum. That’s not the way to treat each other. Anyway, I am glad if we can be of any help and I really ask of you to take the Catholic Charismatics as one of us in a bigger body. There is no threat, no heresy there. Remember the promise of Jesus upon Peter – the Gate of Hell will not prevail against the Church. So please do not worry about the so called Charismatics, if anything at all, they are good contributors to the Church just like any one of us too.

God bless you.

 

[Cecilianus]

Dear Cecilanus, I am very sorry if I sound rather harsh to you. I do not mean it that way. I am glad you are opened to explanation and I thank God for it. The gist of my intention is to try to let you know that the Catholics Charismatics are our brothers and sisters in Christ, whether we agree with their spirituality or not. They are not opposing the Church, in fact on the contrary nor are they heretics.

My impression is that you come in as very hostile to Catholic posters who try to speak on this subject. I note that one poster earlier on was completely broken down by your reply that she simply quit the forum. That’s not the way to treat each other. Anyway, I am glad if we can be of any help and I really ask of you to take the Catholic Charismatics as one of us in a bigger body. There is no threat, no heresy there. Remember the promise of Jesus upon Peter – the Gate of Hell will not prevail against the Church. So please do not worry about the so called Charismatics, if anything at all, they are good contributors to the Church just like any one of us too.

God bless you.

I’m not calling you heretics or even doubting your closeness to Christ, I’m just objecting to the idea that this type of spirituality is the charism of the Holy Spirit rather than just a human and emotional way in which people choose to worship, to the idea that we should or even can be turning to movements outside the Church (Pentecostalism) for spiritual inspiration or that God would channel grace outside the institution He established for it, and to the attitude taken by some posters (like the one who was “completely broken down”) that they are prophets of the Holy Spirit who have to be accepted as such uncritically, and who can’t emotionally handle rational questioning or the idea that it might look like prelest (natural or non-divine phenomena masquerading as spiritual gifts or visions) at first glance to us.

I certainly don’t practice your type of spirituality, but don’t want to be dismissed as “non-charismatic” for it - as if I had to jump out of my pew and dance before being truly holy in God’s sight. I am striving for holiness, as we all are - but I wouldn’t appreciate being permanently relegated to the status of “non-Saint” because I don’t insert Mormon spirituality into my Catholicism.

 

[Cecilianus]

If my tone offends you, then I offer sincere apologies. I usually try to be frank and get to the point, without whitewashing what I am saying in a veneer of politeness - politeness just looks insincere and superficial to me. I would rather people say what they mean bluntly so that their arguments can be evaluated rationally (and dispassionately) in a clear light without having to read between the lines to figure out what they actually mean. Nobody is omniscient and rational evaluation shouldn’t be an occasion to get offended, in my mind. If it does offend you, then please be patient with me.

Cecilianus

 

[Reuben_J]

I’m not calling you heretics or even doubting your closeness to Christ, I’m just objecting to the idea that this type of spirituality is the charism of the Holy Spirit rather than just a human and emotional way in which people choose to worship, to the idea that we should or even can be turning to movements outside the Church (Pentecostalism) for spiritual inspiration or that God would channel grace outside the institution He established for it, and to the attitude taken by some posters (like the one who was “completely broken down”) that they are prophets of the Holy Spirit who have to be accepted as such uncritically, and who can’t emotionally handle rational questioning or the idea that it might look like prelest (natural or non-divine phenomena masquerading as spiritual gifts or visions) at first glance to us.

I certainly don’t practice your type of spirituality, but don’t want to be dismissed as “non-charismatic” for it - as if I had to jump out of my pew and dance before being truly holy in God’s sight. I am striving for holiness, as we all are - but I wouldn’t appreciate being permanently relegated to the status of “non-Saint” because I don’t insert Mormon spirituality into my Catholicism.

Your objection is noted.

I got my closeness to God by asking and surrendering to the Holy Spirit. I would commit the unforgiveable sin should I attribute it to any other beings other than the Holy Spirit (God) whether you agree or not with the mode of getting it or the spirituality.

Again where did you get that (the bolded part). So I am saying you are imagining things where none is intended. If it is true, then maybe you should petition to your local Bishop if any Charismatics labeled you as non-Saint so that action or even excommunication can be taken on them.

 

[juliamajor]

**B]QUOTE=Cecilianus;6166874]I’m not calling you heretics or even doubting your closeness to Christ, I’m just objecting to the idea that this type of spirituality is the charism of the Holy Spirit rather than just a human and emotional way in which people choose to worship, to the idea that we should or even can be turning to movements outside the Church (Pentecostalism) for spiritual inspiration or that God would channel grace outside the institution He established for it, and to the attitude taken by some posters (like the one who was “completely broken down”) that they are prophets of the Holy Spirit who have to be accepted as such uncritically, and who can’t emotionally handle rational questioning or the idea that it might look like prelest (natural or non-divine phenomena masquerading as spiritual gifts or visions) at first glance to us.

I certainly don’t practice your type of spirituality, but don’t want to be dismissed as"non-charismatic" for it (So what if you aren’t one- their are many conduits of grace in the church-)(- as if I had to jump out of my pew and dance before being truly holy in God’s sight.(Last time I did that- hmmm-how about never, never seen )** I am striving for holiness, as we all are - but I wouldn’t appreciate being permanently relegated to the status of “non-Saint”(again no one but you is saying this- we don’t refer to each other as saints- I don’t presume to know where you are spiritually- that is between you and God and no one else-but warts and all I know He loves me and you because I don’t insert Mormon spirituality into my Catholicism"****(gee I thought it was pentacostal spiritualityB]** .**

 

[Barbaqued]

I wonder if most people are content with their relationship with God out of fear.

I have read much to do about evil spirits and Satan using tongues. Much was said about Jesus too, so much in fact that He was even accused of using Satan’s power to cast out spirits.

The truth is the Charismatic renewal is about the Holy Spirit and receiving His power through the charisms to edify His Church! It’s not about rock and roll, or who is holier or more spiritually advanced.

One thing for sure is we should be careful not to stifle the Holy Spirit or in any way blasphem Him or His work. His ways are far above ours.

At the end of His life Smith Wigglesworth had been given a revelation by God. He told Smith that a new and even greater out pouring of the Holy Spirits power was coming and it would manifest in the “old religion”.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Smith_Wigglesworth

Mathew 12: 30-31

Whoever is not with me is against me, and whoever does not gather with me scatters. Therefore, I say to you, every sin and blasphemy will be forgiven people, but blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven.

Luke 12:10
"Everyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven, but the one who blasphemes against the holy Spirit will not be forgiven.

Mark 3: 28-9
Amen, I say to you, all sins and all blasphemies that people utter will be forgiven them.
But whoever blasphemes against the holy Spirit will never have forgiveness, but is guilty of an everlasting sin."

 

[Reuben_J]

If my tone offends you, then I offer sincere apologies. I usually try to be frank and get to the point, without whitewashing what I am saying in a veneer of politeness - politeness just looks insincere and superficial to me. I would rather people say what they mean bluntly so that their arguments can be evaluated rationally (and dispassionately) in a clear light without having to read between the lines to figure out what they actually mean. Nobody is omniscient and rational evaluation shouldn’t be an occasion to get offended, in my mind. If it does offend you, then please be patient with me.

Cecilianus

Not at all but thanks for the apology. I have been here for quite a while and it must take quite a load to offend me. And no, I am not easily offended.

It seems you did to the one poster that I earlier mentioned, but maybe it was that she did not expect it coming from you.

Just to address your earlier concern again:

I certainly don’t practice your type of spirituality, but don’t want to be dismissed as “non-charismatic” for it - as if I had to jump out of my pew and dance before being truly holy in God’s sight.

If ever you go to a prayer meeting, and if there is any noticeable newcomers who are probably new to the Charismatic Renewal, any core leader who leads it would tell the congregation briefly about what to expect in a charismatic praise and worship. Nobody is forced to raise their hands, dance or pray in tongue, though they are encouraged to be open and not inhibited if they feel like doing it.

Even if they don’t, it does not mean that the Holy Spirit is alienating them or they are in anyway less charismatic. You may be surprised to know that not all Catholic Charismatics are doing that. It seems the impression from those who are not familiar with the Charismatic Renewal is as if everybody is praying in tongue, dancing, raising their hands, prophesying or performing miracle. No, it is not.

Somebody earlier on mentioned about Ralph Martin, a prominent Catholic Charismatic leader. I remember one time in a conference, he was the main speaker. He was the most unCharismatic person in the hall that at the end of the conference when he gave question and answer session, one of the participants asked why he did not dance or raise his hands during the worship. He answered, “Were you worshipping or you were watching others?” In worship one has to be sincere and true; and body movement is reflective of the real desire that comes from the heart. In other word, it is the heart that matters not so much how you wave your hands.

As for dancing during the mass, this is non-issue. If you are attending the Roman Missal, the GIRM is very clear. There is no provision for all these. It is true that there is what you call the Charismatic mass (it is a misnomer because all masses are Charismatic, that is, the tangible presence of the action of the Holy Spirit) where participants are free in the singing. But Charismatic mass is always private and not meant to replace public Sunday mass or any public mass unless the whole parish is Charismatics or the priest agrees to it.

We simply cannot impose any specific spirituality on other Catholics. Similarly, the Marians would not do the same too. Have you experienced that the whole congregation praying the Rosary before the mass? Well, not all Catholics like or agree to that. Some prefer quietness before the mass. So it is important that any specific spirituality is not to be imposed upon everybody, and for the most part, Catholic Charismatics know this.

 

[Reuben_J]

Cecilianus:

I am striving for holiness, as we all are - but I wouldn’t appreciate being permanently relegated to the status of “non-Saint” because I don’t insert Mormon spirituality into my Catholicism.

**
Not all are given the gift of the Holy Spirit as mentioned in 1 Cor 12.** There are even instances where people do not want these gifts. Why? Because it means to serve. That’s why there are many Catholics in the Charismatic Renewal who practically devote their lives to serve the Lord at the expense of success in career and business. Those who have the gift of teaching, teach; the gift of preaching, preach; the give of giving comfort, care for those who need care, and so on.

But on the other hand, you do not have to be a Charismatic to do all these. Why? Because all these are incumbent upon all believers who have accepted Christ and by virtue of our Baptism, except that many of the Baptized Catholics fail to carry out this obligation or just could not care less about their faith. This is what happened in the history of many Charismatics. And when they were baptized, infilled or empowered by the Holy Spirit, hey, then they realized that they have to do all these and be real servants of the Lord.

Thus you can be changed for the better through the phenomenon of Catholic Charismatic Renewal but it can happen also through any other bodies or events in the Catholic Church. The Holy Spirit is NOT the sole reserved right of the Catholic Charismatics, and no Catholic Charismatics ever claim the opposite.

The mark of the Holy Spirit is holiness not the gifts. Of course one has to understand what it means by holiness. It surely is not just about prayers or Sacrament but also about love, unity and peace. You mentioned that you are holy – and that’s the true mark of the Holy Spirit, whether you are in the Charismatic Renewal or not. This has to be made clear; there is so much misconception there.

Nobody says that you must have the gift of the Holy Spirit which is called charisms in order that you have the Holy Spirit or that you are holy. The gifts are given as the Spirit gives, that is, nobody can force him to give but given according to his pleasure. Gifts are meant to be used for serving. You got the gift, you serve the body. So you can understand that to receive these gifts are not as easy as many would think. Catholic Charismatics for the most part know this. Of course there are always people in a place for the wrong reason but we are not going to dwell on this because this is the negative.

I suggest you don’t be alarmed too much by the jargons and terms used. Charismatic Renewal is something new and it is difficult to grasp. There is no ready term for what’s happening though the goodness out of it is unmistakably from God. You are known by the fruits, so to speak. Thus the terms used are something the Charismatics know and understand but they can be misleading to the unacquainted.

Charismatic Renewal is simply renewed by the Holy Spirit which can happen to all Catholics. The understanding among the Charismatics also can mean the Renewal of the actions of the Holy Spirit. The qualifying statement here must include the fact that it applies mainly to the Charismatics themselves because otherwise we know that the Holy Spirit is always with the Church since the beginning o time. **Baptism of the Holy Spirit is praying for the infilling or empowering of the Holy Spirit. **

The post is a bit long but hopes it helps.

God bless.

 

[I_kilt_Gawd]

montecarlense:

I have doubts about the “free Will”…I really don’t think such thing exists…

You are correct, please proceed to kill yourself. Everyone else here should follow suit.

http://www.halloweenonlinemagazine.com/sfx/skeleton10-3.jpg

On the other hand, you could accept overwhelming evidence that quantum uncertainty states that the future is not set in stone, and can be affected by your observations.(ie quantum mechanics says what you do changes the future in somewhat controllable fashion). You can’t prove anything about gods, I say one must be ignorant to be anything but agnostic. But sound science says, with 99.9% certainty, now that we’re here, we determine our own fate. If you are sound of mind enough to take my advice you’ll see that you don’t have to stop believing in God, you can just start believing in things that are demonstrably true (ie science).

For any that are not so sound of mind, I suggest the following.

Just like your god fearing ancestors did to this guy:
You should try it out for yourselves.